Magic of Myth ( MoM ) Luke RotJ Hero ( cave build ) lightsaber research, images, reference, & collaborative model builder's discussion.

[roygilsing]

If you apply copper foil tape, like you show here BRRogers you can always see a wobbly texture. I don't see that in the images of the prop. I think Dave is right and the rails are brass stock. I also noticed in studying the neck color, that the appearance can differ immensely from picture to picture.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I think the patina on both metals (the brass side rails and the the copper traces on the card) eventually end up nearly matching each other.

I experimented with this on my Hero build and was very satisfied with the results.

Patinas: Making Brass & Copper Match Each Other

 

[teecrooz]

I’m still undecided but leaning toward something is covering the brass rails. You can see the oxidized brass under the ”torn” or “chipped” areas and defined edges to whatever is covering the brass. Keep in mind that these photos are from different times, so more is exposed in later images.

 

[BRRogers]

Based on what 3251bimmer has mentioned about the thickness…
I actually am looking at the borders of the Death Star brass sheet as the donor material.
(≈0.3mm reads visually correct in the photos)
Compared on the MoM machined solid piece (above)

Noting again, that where the topcoat has visual variance-
The unaltered material underneath matches the patina off of that brass material.

And one more case:

The clamp card has gone pretty far in oxidation here… but the rails have *not*
In fact, I’d propose that the color of the rails themselves (in the saturated areas) are the only thing that have not changed significantly, while the clampcard itself has seen consistent upkeep to prevent unsightly oxidation.

 

[BRRogers]

roygilsing
Yeah even though I just showed a way to lay the copper tape on fairly evenly (as an option for customers with the mom hilt) I’m leaning towards paint over brass for the original prop- thinking they probably just cut and broke the corner from the death star sheet as the donor material.

 

[BRRogers]

… where’s LOM with all his V3 references

 

[DaveP]

That's an interesting idea! (the Death Star brass). Assuming that they etched the brass themselves, I imagine they'd have a supply of brass sheet in stock, so wouldn't need to be snipped from an etched sheet necessarily. I like the idea of them being from the same stock though.

I definitely had better results painting the rails than covering with tape to achieve the MoM/Identities look:

I found the tape very difficult to work with. To the point where it begged the question, "why would they have bothered doing this?"

My only concern with the paint though, is that I was very conscious that the above commission needed to be handled with care! Any knocks or scrapes would have taken the paint straight off the metal, exposing the brass underneath.

That's kind of why I'm still a bit sceptical of the painted brass theory. Wouldn't the original prop be full of scratches and scuffs by now?

It just seems more likely that the outer surface and the underlying surface are one and the same. That's my reason for leaning more towards folded copper anyway. It just looks more like an irregular patina than paint to me.

Obviously loving the discussion, and in no way wanting to undermine any of the other possibilities. Just throwing in my thoughts and why I'm leaning in that direction.

I'm nowhere near 100% convinced one way or another though!

 

[BRRogers]

Regarding the rail weathering- the prop seems to have been handled or altered very little since going from the archives through exhibits with the exception of perhaps the clamp card maintenance… and unfortunately the significant paint loss on the neck from being displayed (tied with fishing line) in the Luke costume mannequin hands.

Aside from that, I would presume that the prop would have been handled with a museum level of care to avoid being scratched or scuffed.

So that’s my thought in response

 

[v312]

I don't think the rails are copper - the edge here is shining like brass.

You can age brass to look like copper but I'm not sure if you can do it the other way around ?

Here's one of my leftover rails from when I was building my MoM - next to a brand new piece:

The idea was after the treatment to rub it a little until the original brass color starts to show and I think it will get pretty close.

On some other references of the MoM that the rails really look painted over to me. Another option could be that they are weathered and then sealed with clear coat - that can make it sometimes look like bare brass/cooper sometimes like paint.

But Dave has a good point that paint on starwars props usually have plenty of scratches and chips accumulated over time (even when not part of the original weathering) and it does not look like that. Sure it was just an insert shot done at the end, so probably it didn't get much handling time. Still there are some visible on the neck paint though.

Another thing I'm always wondering is why paint the rails with brass or copper looking paint if they are already brass to begin with? Only reason I could think of is if they wanted to match the rails with the neck and that kind of makes sense (so I eventually painted mine with the same paint I used for the neck).

 

[BRRogers]

 

[Sym-Cha]

Back in 2011 during my build I covered my rails and custom controle board with copper foil that has a glue layer on the back, which you can iron rather smooth, the colour is still very much copper :

... fast forward to 2023 ... I just wanted to show what light handling and time will do to it :

The colour has turned more towards brass, even after a light cleaning the full copper colour has gone completely :

Chaïm

 

[BRRogers]

I’m gonna order a few things, I want to make sure I come back afterwards and test the hypothesis I drop in here

 

[BRRogers]

Thanks 3251bimmer for taking a moment to generate some scale reference using your production made- DSII brass. (Noting it for material thickness)
Also for the mention: this example is the thickest of the pieces he has.

 

[onderon]

I don't think a props person would take a piece of material like the side of the Death Star brass sheet and mess with such a small piece, cut it, then bend it 90 degrees perfectly like it is factory made. Too much hustle.

 

[Halliwax]

Back in 2011 during my build I covered my rails and custom controle board with copper foil that has a glue layer on the back, which you can iron rather smooth, the colour is still very much copper :

View attachment 1714839

... fast forward to 2023 ... I just wanted to show what light handling and time will do to it :

View attachment 1714841

The colour has turned more towards brass, even after a light cleaning the full copper colour has gone completely :

View attachment 1714842

Chaïm

this came out excellent!

 

[BRRogers]

I don't think a props person would take a piece of material like the side of the Death Star brass sheet and mess with such a small piece, cut it, then bend it 90 degrees perfectly like it is factory made. Too much hustle.

As a fabricator-
I don’t know how this seems like a stretch.
They had already milled off the rails from the Yuma in anticipation of a closeup shot (ISYHCANL) and were seemingly; planning to build out the entire rest of the control box interior? If so… this would have been made at the start of that transition.

The prop shop would have had a myriad of tools for all kinds of forming.

No L stock?

Ok some Extra brass sheet laying around…
A couple quick cuts in a sheet cutting shear (which usually has measured grids attached) and a quick fold on a sheet metal break. I can’t imagine this would take more than just a few minutes at most for someone who was familiar with working with etched brass and thin gauge sheet material- literally making props for a living… much less a key prop that was about to get an extreme closeup insert… in pickups.

Granted it’s all opinion and conjecture, but given they surely had the tooling that would be among one of the easiest and most basic things someone could do.
Heck if they had brass sheet and did the light etching themselves it might’ve been the same material without the DS edges to worry about… since we know they had it and would have had to make it themselves anyway.

 

[onderon]

As a fabricator-
I don’t know how this seems like a stretch.
They had already milled off the rails from the Yuma in anticipation of a closeup shot (ISYHCANL) and were seemingly; planning to build out the entire rest of the control box interior? If so… this would have been made at the start of that transition.

The prop shop would have had a myriad of tools for all kinds of forming.

No L stock?

Ok some Extra brass sheet laying around…
A couple quick cuts in a sheet cutting shear (which usually has measured grids attached) and a quick fold on a sheet metal break. I can’t imagine this would take more than just a few minutes at most for someone who was familiar with working with etched brass and thin gauge sheet material- literally making props for a living… much less a key prop that was about to get an extreme closeup insert… in pickups.

Granted it’s all opinion and conjecture, but given they surely had the tooling that would be among one of the easiest and most basic things someone could do.
Heck if they had brass sheet and did the light etching themselves it might’ve been the same material without the DS edges to worry about… since we know they had it and would have had to make it themselves anyway.

Because for me it looks way more precisely done than what I think you could end up with, with a small piece of material. Why bother when you can buy L angle trims? Or cut a square one into half? I am not sure if it is easier than to bend. But it could come from wherever. They might use something like this in railway modelling. Anyway, this is just my opinion. I might be thinking too much with nowadays head and in the 80’s it was not important to make a prop and it’s parts easily fixable and reproducable.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Didn’t they already use brass stock on the ISYHCANL version?

This being the case, using Occam's razor, wouldn’t it be most likely that they used the same “L” angle stock when it was altered for the “Cave Scene”?

The rails look fairly “brassy” to me, in the “Cave Scene”…

 

[minhelqueue]

So from the page 1 of this thread

These 2 images show that the rails have a very strong red/orange color compared to the neck which is more yellow/brown-ish
Also, this image too

From this angle, even with the lack of lighting, we can see that the rails still match with the copper traces on the clamp card while the neck is still more yellow/brown-ish.
So I think we can conclude that the rails and the neck do not share the same color.

Didn’t they already use brass stock on the ISYHCANL version?

This being the case, using Occam's razor, wouldn’t it be most likely that they used the same “L” angle stock when it was altered for the “Cave Scene”?
The rails look pretty fairly “brassy” to me, in the “Cave Scene”…

But ALLEY's screenshots show that the rails are more "brassy".
Is there a chance they painted the rails copper after they shot the cave scene?
So
- ISYHBANLS: brass rails
- Cave scenes: still brass rails
- After cave scene: rails got painted to look like copper (?). Or the brass rails got patinated to look like copper. Anyone has a sample of patinated brass vs. regular copper?

Another explanation:
In the cave scene, the rails were actually copper but they looked brassy/yellow-ish in the cave scene due to the lack of lighting on the set. So when you got some of the sunlight on the rails, it looked brassy/yellow-ish for like 2 seconds. When the light was not on the rails, I think the rails looked like vaguely brown to me. Also during the deleted cave scene, I think the neck looked dark brown while the rails looked brassy/yellow-ish.
I have a Luke hilt with copper powder coated rails and sometimes, the rails look brassy/yellow-ish depending on the angle and the lighting in the room.

 

[BRRogers]

From the 4K grab of ISYHCANL

I guess a good place for me to start is to deduce if the rail material itself is the same from this scene to the cave hero… or if things got switched around. The dents and patina on the 4K screens should actually provide enough detail to roll over into the other photos. To confirm