Lets talk all things Star Wars
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
Well said. Agreed.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Or maybe like any good story, it developed and evolved as they went along. I mean when creating a series in a group, you always want to be open to new ideas, particularly when your bringing on new writers and directors, that have their own ideas. Just look how many iterations there are of each OT movie, before the final product is written, shot, and edited. Or any story that we love. Look at Tolkien's ever evolving universe, that he continued to work on and develop, and change. The only difference between the OT and the ST, is no George Lucas. No central figure. And that's okay. Nobody can be or replace George Lucas. So instead it became a collaborative group effort, with Kathy not just hiring a writer(s) and directors, but tapping into every higher up from Lucasfilm and ILM. That was a wise move. Those people have been there since the PT, some go back to the OT.
It's not a reversal, when the nobody "revelation" isn't true. And it's not the end of the story! Good grief.... I mean, even if she was nobody that came from nothing. The Force still chose her. That's established in the FIRST movie, not the last. When the Force calls to Rey. Then we discover in TLJ.... "You've seen this place before." "Only in dreams." Wait what? Rey's had dreams of the Jedi library before she was there. Oh what did Kylo say to her when he was riffling through her memory? “You’re so lonely… so afraid to leave… At night, desperate to sleep… you imagine an ocean. I see it — I see the island…” Did he say an island? Like the island with the Jedi library on Ahch-To? And what did Luke say about her? "You went straight for the dark side." "I've only seen the raw strength before, in Ben Solo." (Translation: Rey has a high midi-chlorian count) The whole of the ST is about this great mystery. Rey a purported nobody, yet she's has high midi-chlorian count, so she's unnaturally strong in the Force. She has had dreams of an ancient Jedi location. The Force calls her to the Skywalker lightsaber. It continues to connect Rey and Ben even with Snoke dead. This is the mystery, why is the Force doing this to a "nobody"?
Also Luke mastering his emotions=/=Rey coming to peace with her worst fear, being a nobody after a year of time. Not that Luke mastered his emotions anyways.
Your example of foreshadowing has nothing to do with a character who's secretly returned from the dead to exact revenge. That's a very different scenario. And now I'm trying to think of a film series that does this.....the only that comes to mind is The Hobbit, but that one is pretty on the nose. The characters may wonder who's behind it all, but the audience pretty much is aware it's Sauron from the outset. Of course you can't see the hints. Even though I just blatantly gave you one. You don't want to see the hints. Funny how those of us that like the ST can see the hints. Especially when it comes to the First Order. It alone hints at Palpatine. Why in a million years would Palpatine ensure that HIS Empire could return without him? That makes absolutely no sense.
I mean Force imbued objects have been around for a long time in Legends lore. And um, just going to leave this here. "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future…the past. Old friends long gone." No pay off? The pay off happens at the end of TFA. Geeze almighty.....
I mean Finn is main character the same as Han. And look what Han got. He got nothing until TFA. His character arc, like Finn, stoped in the second movie in. Not saying that either is good. Just saying.
They don't revert Finn. Rian noted that in TFA, everything Finn does is for Rey, to save Rey, to help Rey. He isn't on Starkilller for the Resistance. He's there for Rey. So in TLJ, that's where we pick up with. Everything he's doing is for Rey. Finn, has yet to join the good fight, become member of the Resistance. He's DJ, "Live free, don't join." But seeing the hurt someone like DJ cause, changes Finn's mind. So when Phasma calls him scum, he replies with "Rebel scum." He'd apart of something bigger now. He isn't just fighting for what he wants now.(to run off with Rey and get away from everything). He's fighting for all downtrodden in the galaxy.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Except Rian then did his own thing. Or is RJ more knowledgeable about Star wars than the staff and top brass at Lucasfilm. RJ scrapped Abrams 8 script and did his own thing. A good story needs a plan so you can add hints, development, etc knowing how the story beats will occur.
This means nothing and is missing the point. The point is Rey’s character was based on being a nobody and is thus needs to work hard to make her own path in the galaxy. She wasnt meant to be “part of the story” but she has the talent and can carve her own path, until
missing the point again. RJ and you mention how is unreasonable for us to assume Luke mastered his emotions after several years being a jedi master and training others. However, Rey mastering her internal conflict being a nobody (which is honestly a bigger shock) in severals days or weeks is perfectly acceptable. If Luke cant control his emotions being a jedi, why can Rey immediately come to terms with being a nobody. Calling you out for being a hypocrite
then read a mystery novel. A good mystery author has hints and clues to who the real murder is as well as some red herrings to throw the reader and detective off. A study has shown that readers of a good twist can enjoy the product even after knowing the twist because they can pick up on the clues that reveal the truth.
Spoiler alert: spoilers make you enjoy stories more
Did someone spoil the next episode of "Game of Thrones"? They might have done you a favor.
First i mentioned movies. Second, legends is now not canon. Try again.
Just wow and lol.
First, Han is introduced and remains a supporting character. Finn was introduced as a main character (TFA focuses on Finn, his feelings, his exploits, he holds the lightsaber and is the center of attention). Demoting Finn to Han level when he was previously Luke is a disservice.
Second, Han has clear development theough the 3 movies even if his contribution is lessened in RotJ.
ANH - Han is a self-interested smuggler, begins to fight for his friends and the rebellion.
ESB - pushes back paying off Jabba to help the rebellion. Develops love interest in Leia. Pays for putting off paying Jabba back.
RotJ - saved by his friends. Goes on mission to Endor and enters a last stand with Leia. Actually gives up on hos love for Leia so she can be happy (luckily he was mistaken). Han in RotJ is completely different from ANH but his development trajectory is clear and built up in all 3 movies.
TFA - Finn is traumatized by war and wants to leave. Delivers droid so he has opportunity to leave but stays to help Rey and goes to Starkiller base and pays for it.
TLJ - reverts back to cowardly and now clueless (what about Rey?). Basically same development as TFA but now allies with resistance (so First order destroying countless planets did nothing for Finn?)
RoS - Rey vocal exercises.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
And before you say but Vader being Luke’s father wasnt foreshadowed, you are right and it is not great either. The difference between this and the Emperor reveal are completely different though.
Vader reveal was in ESB, giving the audience time to digest and wonder how Luke will overcome this obstacle. Its no longer Luke beats/kills Vader and the good guys win because can a good guy really kill his own dad? Luke is put in a Sophie’s choice and needs to find a third option to truly win.
Emperor reveal came out of nowhere in the last movie, his motivations conflicting, with the movie also throwing a ton of new information that conflicts with what we previously learned (Rey is a palpatine, Snoke is a clone, First order is the empire 2.0, palpatine was alive this entire time, etc) it doesnt add a wrinkle and arguably makes the conflict easier (Ben isnt the big bad anymore since there is a bigger badder enemy so Ben can be redeemed while Rey still kills the big bad).
Then again, I agree this isnt Star Wars and if what Doomcock recently rumored is true, Disney Star Wars is a spiteful facade and attempt by Kennedy to claim Star Wars as hers, making me despise it more. Star wars began with episode 1 and ended with episode 6 and anything else is just a new IP that i have no interest in.
Vader reveal was in ESB, giving the audience time to digest and wonder how Luke will overcome this obstacle. Its no longer Luke beats/kills Vader and the good guys win because can a good guy really kill his own dad? Luke is put in a Sophie’s choice and needs to find a third option to truly win.
Emperor reveal came out of nowhere in the last movie, his motivations conflicting, with the movie also throwing a ton of new information that conflicts with what we previously learned (Rey is a palpatine, Snoke is a clone, First order is the empire 2.0, palpatine was alive this entire time, etc) it doesnt add a wrinkle and arguably makes the conflict easier (Ben isnt the big bad anymore since there is a bigger badder enemy so Ben can be redeemed while Rey still kills the big bad).
Then again, I agree this isnt Star Wars and if what Doomcock recently rumored is true, Disney Star Wars is a spiteful facade and attempt by Kennedy to claim Star Wars as hers, making me despise it more. Star wars began with episode 1 and ended with episode 6 and anything else is just a new IP that i have no interest in.
Jaitea
Master Member
Yeah, I had high hopes that Disney/LFL would know what they were doing
Its really as though Coca Cola sold the brand name over to Disney but didn't give them the recipe, there are some in the company that can get the drink close, that it almost tastes the same (Mando & R1), others who have all the packaging right & lots of fizz, but when the fizz goes, the drink goes flat & you wonder how you got fooled into thinking it was nearly 'the real thing' (TFA), then there are some wise guys who think its time to radically change the whole look, taste & move away from all the past success that the brand had, thinking it's time for the drink to appeal to new tastebuds, as long as it has the logo on it, who cares what it tastes like (TLJ & HR)
It's just not as easy as all that, a bit of effort is needed,.... Mando & R1 were almost there
J
Its really as though Coca Cola sold the brand name over to Disney but didn't give them the recipe, there are some in the company that can get the drink close, that it almost tastes the same (Mando & R1), others who have all the packaging right & lots of fizz, but when the fizz goes, the drink goes flat & you wonder how you got fooled into thinking it was nearly 'the real thing' (TFA), then there are some wise guys who think its time to radically change the whole look, taste & move away from all the past success that the brand had, thinking it's time for the drink to appeal to new tastebuds, as long as it has the logo on it, who cares what it tastes like (TLJ & HR)
It's just not as easy as all that, a bit of effort is needed,.... Mando & R1 were almost there
J
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
What's scary/amusing about this is that no matter what Disney does with SW people will stand by it, blindly nod in agreement to everything they say, come up with subjective premises, spin and conjecture to justify it & the content.
In all fairness pro Disney SW fans feel that the opposition automatically just hates everything Disney does and do exactly the same types of things. It's probably best to just let it be as no one is going to be convinced to change their perspective pro ST or con ST. There's too much polarization. People don't have to agree on everything.
In all fairness pro Disney SW fans feel that the opposition automatically just hates everything Disney does and do exactly the same types of things. It's probably best to just let it be as no one is going to be convinced to change their perspective pro ST or con ST. There's too much polarization. People don't have to agree on everything.
Joek3rr
Master Member
That's a lie. Pretty sure I told you that a few posts back. JJ never wrote a script for 8. He says that he and Lawrence Kasdan had some ideas. And that the direction that Rian went was very much what they were thinking. Greg Grunburg, said that JJ told him that he loved Rian's script so much, that he wished he was directing episode 8.
Not that's not point of her character. The point of her character is that you can be what you want, no matter where you come from. Your past, whether that's being a nobody, it being the granddaughter of the most evil man in the galaxy. Your past doesn't define who you are, unless you let it. The whole of this trilogy is about Rey journey of self identification and self worth.
Mastering one's emotions is not even close to being similar to Rey accepting and making peace with the notion that she is come from nothing. And you don't see her having mastered her emotions. In fact it's quite the opposite. Her emotions get the better of her on numerous occasions in episode 9. Which occurs over the time span of year, just stop with several days to weeks crap.
This, still is not a good comparison. In mystery film,(not a novel, two very different mediums) we do not know who the culprit is. And the film reveals who that is. However Palpatine is not someone who must be revealed to us as the culprit. That was already done in the OT and the PT. He's not a character that is new to us, or what he is. He is a very well established prior. To reintroduce him in such a manner, would be redundant, and altogether unnecessary. Revealing, or confirming for some, at the end is perfectly acceptable. Though I do believe it would gone over better if that had been done in the film itself rather then the trailer. Imagine going in blind and. It not knowing about him at all. Such a chilling revelation.
Each film has introduced, save Revenge of the Sith, something new about the Force. Force visions are nothing new, in the films. And items and locations often trigger those visions. This is both the case in Legends and Canon. See characters like Cal Kestis, and Quinlan Vos. Having someone such as Rey, strong in the Force as her, coming in contact with such a Force filled item, with such history as the Skywalker lightsaber, is bound to lead to something trippy.
Finn was the Luke character of the film? Hahaha! Yeah no....Rey was always the Luke character in the story. I don't where this delusion is coming from.
Finn has a similar arc over three films.
TFA- Finn just wants to get away from the First Order. But his friendship with Rey brings him back. He goes to Starkilller base for her, not the Resistance, not the galaxy, but for her. He fights Kylo to protect Rey.
TLJ- literally opens with Finn asking. "Where's Rey." That's his focus for most of the movie. Saving the fleet, so when Rey returns she had somewhere safe to be. Everything he does is for Rey. He has yet care about the galaxy at large, or yo officially join the cause. At the end of the film he does, seeing how the downtrodden look and are inspired by the Resistance, even if they are just children. And seeing DJ, live free don't join. And Finn sees where that mentality leads to. So when he's called a scum, he replies with "Rebel scum." He's joined the cause. This idea that he has reverted back to being a coward, is complete lie, and has no basis in the film.
TROS- Finn's ending is not to dissimilar to Han's. And the fact you are unwilling to acknowledge that FACT, is telling. Now a member of the Resistance, he takes the leads the fight as a general. The man that would have run away, now charges headlong, leading others, in the fight against tyranny.
robn1
Master Member
There is a quote somewhere of JJ saying he loved the Rogue One script and wished he could have directed it, but I haven't heard him say anything with regard for 8.
And I am grateful he had nothing to do with R1.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Never heard that about Rogue One... interesting.
Anyways this what I'm talking about.
According to Abrams’ longtime friend and colleague Greg Grunberg, who has a small cameo as a Resistance pilot in The Force Awakens, J.J. has read the script for Episode VIII and his reaction came as a surprise.
The fact that JJA might have wanted to direct Rian's TLJ script is not evidence that it was written well.
That anecdote cuts to the heart of ep#8's problems, really. It would have been a fun movie to write and direct on its own. But a lot of that potent stuff came at the expense of the other movies. Rian did a good job delivering one movie and a bad job of making an episode in a series.
For a more extreme example of this, look at 'Terminator Dark Fate'. What they did with John Connor was very useful for that movie by itself. But it took a dump on the rest of the franchise. (Yes, I know it was James Cameron's idea.)
That anecdote cuts to the heart of ep#8's problems, really. It would have been a fun movie to write and direct on its own. But a lot of that potent stuff came at the expense of the other movies. Rian did a good job delivering one movie and a bad job of making an episode in a series.
For a more extreme example of this, look at 'Terminator Dark Fate'. What they did with John Connor was very useful for that movie by itself. But it took a dump on the rest of the franchise. (Yes, I know it was James Cameron's idea.)
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I'd always heard rumors that George didn't just "make up" Star Wars.
He KNOWS things...
Spielberg too.
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