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alienscollection.com

Legendary Member
I swear...some of the defenders of Disney Star Wars, in this thread, have got to be secret members of the Lucasfilm Story Group.

The need to argue against every critical observation made regarding the Sequel Trilogy is like watching a parent instinctively running to the defense of their child.
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HeartBlade

Sr Member
Yeah, such an optimist. Like that time Yoda asked Luke to lift his X-wing out of the swamp and Luke said it was impossible. Then, even after Yoda shows him it's not impossible, Luke still doesn't believe it. So much optimism.
Yeah Luke is the definition of pessimism.

ANH - yeah we can hit the tiny vent port on the death star. Ive hit swamp rats while on Tatooine.

ESB - yeah ill go save my friends captured by the Empire despite it being an obvious trap.

Also, the time lapse between ESB and RoTJ is several months to a year at most. Luke went from being told the shocking news that his dad is Vader to believing there is good in him to the point of risking his life twice.

Regarding Ben? Screw that kid. He’s dangerous.
 

Usagi Pilgrim

Sr Member
I think you're confusing optimism with success.

In each of the examples I mentioned, he pretty much had moments of doubt, but I meant he went into them all gung-ho, but you're right... Once he got into those situations, he failed, grew, & overcame, but the key thing is, the success wasn't always accomplishing the task- the success was learning the lesson. He pretty much went through the Jedi Trials, just not in any 'official' way.


Just take the BIG things in his life... He failed with the remote, trusted the Force, & blocked the shots.

He tried to hit the exhaust port, failed, tried again while using the Force, & it went boom.

He failed with the X-Wing, but learned that size didn't matter (giggidy).

He thought he knew better than Yoda, failed in the cave, but learned that he could succumb to the Dark Side, just like Vader.

He thought he could face Vader & rescue his friends, but ended up losing Han & having to be rescued.

All those 'successes' & all those 'losses' only mattered if Luke learned the lesson. The Luke we had by the end of ROTJ had lived, won, & lost, but most importantly, he LEARNED.

It almost wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that in TLJ, Yoda said that failure was the greatest teacher(paraphrased). YES! LUKE KNOWS THAT! HE HAD A LIFE THAT TAUGHT HIM THAT LESSON!

So where did the Luke that we saw in the flashback come from. We get that he's on Ach-To because he felt like he failed Ben, but what made him the man standing over Ben ready to murder him over a glimpse of a POSSIBLE future? That was even a lesson Yoda told him. The future is hard to see, always changing(paraphrase).
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
I’m with you 100% on the “make new” point. I’m reading the Ketty Jay series right now (steampunk air pirates etc) and it’s exactly the kind of thing I would rather see existing in the space Star Wars occupies.
Maybe its the talent of the writing team but books and comics seem to do a better job of creating the universe that the characters live in that makes you want to learn more.

Hollywood has already been a creative rut for a while now with the focus on remakes and derivatives rather than something new. Something completely new like Steampunk might come to Hollywood after they see some success on streaming tbh.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
I think you're confusing optimism with success.

In each of the examples I mentioned, he pretty much had moments of doubt, but I meant he went into them all gung-ho, but you're right... Once he got into those situations, he failed, grew, & overcame, but the key thing is, the success wasn't always accomplishing the task- the success was learning the lesson. He pretty much went through the Jedi Trials, just not in any 'official' way.


Just take the BIG things in his life... He failed with the remote, trusted the Force, & blocked the shots.

He tried to hit the exhaust port, failed, tried again while using the Force, & it went boom.

He failed with the X-Wing, but learned that size didn't matter (giggidy).

He thought he knew better than Yoda, failed in the cave, but learned that he could succumb to the Dark Side, just like Vader.

He thought he could face Vader & rescue his friends, but ended up losing Han & having to be rescued.

All those 'successes' & all those 'losses' only mattered if Luke learned the lesson. The Luke we had by the end of ROTJ had lived, won, & lost, but most importantly, he LEARNED.

It almost wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that in TLJ, Yoda said that failure was the greatest teacher(paraphrased). YES! LUKE KNOWS THAT! HE HAD A LIFE THAT TAUGHT HIM THAT LESSON!

So where did the Luke that we saw in the flashback come from. We get that he's on Ach-To because he felt like he failed Ben, but what made him the man standing over Ben ready to murder him over a glimpse of a POSSIBLE future? That was even a lesson Yoda told him. The future is hard to see, always changing(paraphrase).
Not sure if directed at me but if it is, then yes I agree with you.

I would interpret it as optimistic that Luke thought that he could achieve these things and so attempted them, regardless of outcome. ANH Luke is arguably too optimistic (we can save the princess, we can shoot down the death star) and while he does meet success, he is taken down to earth with his failures in ESB.

And regarding the doubt about the x-wing, Luke and everyone in the audience had to unlearn a basic principle of physics (bigger/heavier things require more force to push). It is natural to assume an x-wing is harder to move than small stones so Luke’s doubt is rational.

And your point is also why alot of fans called out with Luke in TLJ not being our Luke. Although its been discussed ad nauseam on this thread and the other, to many Luke’s character development from RotJ to TLJ doesnt make sense. How did we get from optimistic, strong, confident, and selfless Jedi knight Luke who cares about his friends above all and who believed in the good in Darth Vader to weak, scared jedi master Luke who abandoned his friends, cut himself off from the force, and believed Ben to be so dark and evil that he needed to be killed before that happened (even if it was in an instant).

Lets not forget that Kylo Ren never ever achieves this threat level since he’s entire character development os struggling and finally accepting the light with support from his parents (or Rey if the novel is true canon).
 
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Joek3rr

Sr Member
So Daisy Ridley is a liar?
I love how they purposely leave out the first part of her quote. Which goes like this. "Here's what I think I know...."- Daisy Ridley "We didn't write a treatment..." - JJ Abrams
Elsewhere in an interview JJ says specifically he didn't have the time to write a script for 8 or 9, he solely focused on doing 7. So, yeah, it's a lie that JJ wrote anything for 8 that Rian tossed out.

Having self identified as a nobody is very different from being the grand daughter of the big bad genius.
Having self identified as nobody is very different. That's the point. You have take everything that Rey has made peace with, in this case being her identity, and smash it with a wrecking ball.

Time gap between 8 and 9 is about a year genius.
I know the time gap is a year. You were to one who said not once, but twice that Rey came to grips in a weeks time! To quote you. "but Rey coming to terms with being a nobody in the span of days or weeks" "However, Rey mastering her internal conflict being a nobody (which is honestly a bigger shock) in severals days or weeks"

Meanwhile, time gap between 6 and 7 is 30 years. So in 30 years, give or take a couple, Luke is still unable to master his emotions despite his continued training as a jedi master. Meanwhile, Rey is able to come to terms with being a nobody and so needs additional internal conflict in 1 years time. That is what you are telling me.

you are also telling me that having your entire self-identity and self-worth be questioned is easier to control and get over that controlling your emotions to not strike down your ne
Making peace with where you came from so drastically different then controlling your dark side. Making peace with current situation, is one thing. Luke made peace and came to terms with being Darth Vader's son in years time. But controlling you dark side, particularly after given into before, is entirely different thing. Your never free of the dark side. "And the only other Jedi lesson I can teach you today, Padawan, is that you don’t conquer the dark side and then that’s it. You don’t just overcome it. You are tested and tested and tested. There is always another test. These are the trials. And I think people trivialize it into thinking, ‘Well, I defeated the dark side.’ Yes, you did on Monday, but now there’s more. Because your hubris can get a hold of you. Because remember Yoda says in the prequels that even the older Jedi have become arrogant." - Dave Filoni

Lol except Palpatine was dead. Vader/Anakin meant to bring the end of the sith? Ring a bell? Thrown down a reactor shaft in a death star which then exploded? If an old character that was initially written off as dead suddenly comes back, there better be a good explanation. If Mace Windu suddenly turns up alive, people will call BS and ask questions because he was assumed dead.
"Lol", nothing. Star Wars is a fantasy universe. Palpatine being dead doesn't mean squat. Particularly a universe that has previously established that death isn't exactly permanent.

And the prophecy? A prophecy that was misinterpreted by the Jedi? A prophecy which says nothing about destroying the Sith. A prophecy that actually never appears in the films. A prophecy that is retcon to make Anakin more important. That George was fully intending to retcon. That prophecy? What about it?

And there is a good explanation. The dark side of the Force is pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. That coupled with fanatical followers that have the ability to create clones and strandcast, equals a returned Palpatine, that's neither alive or dead. A sick inversion of the Jedi's ability to achieve immortality. One does it by giving into the Force. The other resists the Force. A little Tolkien.

Here's something for you. Palpatine returning actually has more explanation, presented on screen, then do Force Spirits or Darth Maul.... Literally, Force Spirits have no explanation, nothing on why some Jedi can and some can't. The Clone Wars touch on it, but it's still vague.

and thanks for ignoring film examples like Sixth Sense which gave multiple examples of good foreshadowing. Or Dark Knight rises where the escapee was actually a girl and thus not Bane but Talia. Or hints in the words Eli speaks in Book of Eli before he reveals his condition. Or Christian Bale actually acting as 2 slightly different people in the prestige and the blatant hints that become obvious after the reveal.
I'm not ignoring. I haven't seen the Sixth Sense, so I'm not going to comment. I will comment on The Dark Knight Rises and the Book of Eli. For TDKR, Talia is new character, for that trilogy. We're seeing her for the first time. Palpatine is a well established character. The moment you hint that Snoke is answering to a higher power, or that the First Order is carrying out cloning experiments, people are going to catch on, and fast. Another thing is. The reveal of Talia is, only works for the uninitiated. It doesn't work for the initiated, they all ready know that Bane isn't Rha's Al Ghul's child. The Book of Eli's masterful reveal that he's blind, and the foreshadowing, that you don't realize is foreshadowing. It's not apparent until the revelation that he's blind.

Palpatine's revelation works in a similar fashion. When look back, after the revelation of Palpatine's return it all makes sense. In the Prequels we know that Palpatine is always 5 moves ahead of everyone. We find that he is trying to discover his master's ability to cheat death. He's discovery of the mask of Darth Momin. His trying to access the World Between Worlds in Rebels. In ROTJ, he's so certain of himself, completely unafraid of death, he cares not it Luke kills him. The First Order's rise to power that was orchestrated by Palpatine before his "death." Kylo has this strange devotion to Vader's mask, and asks it to show him the dark side. And speaks to it directly, calling it grandfather. Then it's revealed that Palpatine achieved his goal of cheating death. He created the First Order for himself (makes sense). And had masquerading as Vader.

Chris Terrio speaks to this idea. "Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie. This fits well with J.J. because he loves magic tricks. When you rewatch the earlier films, things start to make additional sense. Ren and his devotion to the idea of his grandfather. The voice that he’s always heard in his head. The certain similarities between Snoke and Palpatine. The intention was that, by the time you get to Episode IX, you realize there were real reasons this is all happening. It all shows how this story is being fought cyclically through the series."

So you are still relying on legends to make your case. If we are referring to the games as canon, is starkiller the strongest jedi second only to Anakin?
Cal Kestis(Jedi Fallen Order) Quinlan Vos(The Clone Wars) are both canon, not Legends.....

Lol you have got to learn to read and comprehend. I state that Finn is a main character in TFA, like Trailer opens with Finn. Finn is the first character we meet in the movie. The movie starts from his perspective. Just because Finn doesnt have force powers doesnt automatically not make him a main character.
I need read and comprehend? To quote you again. "...when he was previously Luke..."

Oh no he's the first character we see in the trailer! Seriously? Trailers are totally not purposely misleading...

Finn is also the one initiating the action that drives the story in TFA. Its his initiative to leave the first order and free Poe that kicks off the story.
Leia was the first character introduced in Star Wars. Does that make her the main character, or just a main character? And anyways, BB-8 and Poe Dameron are introduced before Finn, so yeah.....
Leia putting the plans into Artoo is what starts the whole film off. So......


He goes searching for BB that Rey just happened to pick up.
He goes searching for BB-8? Say what now? Just stop making stuff up....

He gets Rey’s help with Rey supporting Finn. He is the one that gets BB to the resistance. He is the one that agrees to join the rescue mission. He is the one with the lightsaber and engages Nines and later Kylo Ren. Finn is the active protagonist in TFA. Now see how different he is in TLJ and RoS where things happen to him.
i also mention dual main characters, that Finn is as prominent as Rey in TFA. Rey takes a more passive role, not wanting to leave Jakku, getting captured by Kylo Ren and being the damsel. Rejecting the call. Its only when she starts to tap into the force and use mind control and later calls the lightsaber dos Rey start to take the mantle of protagonist (hence the surprise when she gets the lightsaber to duel Kylo Ren).
Rey takes a more passive role.... Really? I thought Rey was a "Mary Sue" who does everything and never needs help??? Oh wait, only when she needs to be for the argument.



Who runs them to a ship and flies them through the Graveyard of Giants? Who comes up with idea of killing the Stormtroopers? Who tries to stop the pirates? Who saves Finn from the Rathars? The answer is Rey, to all of those, not Finn. Really passive..... Bonus question, who tries to run away and leave their new friends? That's right, Finn does.

Funny how im also not the only one to notice this.



you forget to mention that in RoS, he doesnt take any action himself. Erase Finn from the story and does anything really change? If no, Finn isnt even a secondary character. Han is the driving force in RotJ to get the gang to save him and show off how much Luke has grown. Han does take a backseat but he leads the ground force while Lando leads the air force and Luke confronts Vader. The weight and impact on the story are completely different.

Without Finn's Force sensitivity they wouldn't have known which Star Destroyer to attack. But even if taking him out doesn't change anything. What does that matter? Take Indiana Jones out of Raider's of the Lost Ark and same ending is reached. Sometimes it isn't about what the characters do for the story. Sometimes it's about what the story does for the characters. Or the what the characters do for each other. Finn has an interesting story in TROS. He's realization that he's Force sensitive, and that it was the Force that led to rebel against his "programing." But most importantly is Finn discovering that he isn't alone. That there others, like him, First Order Stormtroopers that Force led to rebel. Whom Finn recruits, to the Resistance. They fight because of him.
I know you love the Sequel trilogy but stop trying to debate the story on story structure merits. You get it wrong pretty much every time.
 

Usagi Pilgrim

Sr Member
Not sure if directed at me but if it is, then yes I agree with you.

I would interpret it as optimistic that Luke thought that he could achieve these things and so attempted them, regardless of outcome. ANH Luke is arguably too optimistic (we can save the princess, we can shoot down the death star) and while he does meet success, he is taken down to earth with his failures in ESB.

And regarding the doubt about the x-wing, Luke and everyone in the audience had to unlearn a basic principle of physics (bigger/heavier things require more force to push). It is natural to assume an x-wing is harder to move than small stones so Luke’s doubt is rational.
No sir, it was not. I was responding to JoeG, but forgot to hit the 'reply' button.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative, but was trying to clarify my meaning.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Let this thread die just like TLJ thread. It's just become it's mutated undead cousin.
Isn't that answer to everything? You don't like what you hear, so let it die.....

I recall awhile back ago someone posted something they found cool to them, on the TLJ thread. And I found cool. But it didn't take long, the anti ST vultures came swooping in, to say how they hated TLJ.

I tried to get the conversation going a different direction, but know one cared. Also notice, that it's anti ST that always bring the TLJ. Aside from HeartBlade and me, doing some sparring. Nobody has brought up TLJ, until that anti ST LEGO meme. I'm very happy to enjoy it all without talking about it. 9 times out 10 it's the other side that's starts it all.

Anyways this going to crash and burn but here's a second chance to try and get the conversation going another direction.
vzpnwh22n6t61.jpg
 

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ALLEY

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Let this thread die just like TLJ thread. It's just become it's mutated undead cousin.
Agreed....pour some freshly squeezed green teet milk over the grave and let it go.

Or, change the thread title to more properly reflect the actual content...

Rather than “Let’s Talk All Things Star Wars” rename the thread “The Sequel Trilogy Is Peak Star Wars—Change My Mind”.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
I fully believe that Order 66 should have come in Episode 2. Anakin needed more time as able bodied Vader too. The final movie should have been the remnants of the Jedi (Obi-Wan) in a last ditch to save the Republic, leading to Anakin's disfigurement etc.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
I fully believe that Order 66 should have come in Episode 2. Anakin needed more time as able bodied Vader too. The final movie should have been the remnants of the Jedi (Obi-Wan) in a last ditch to save the Republic, leading to Anakin's disfigurement etc.
Do you think George would have had Anakin turn in episode 2?
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
I think you're confusing optimism with success.

In each of the examples I mentioned, he pretty much had moments of doubt, but I meant he went into them all gung-ho, but you're right... Once he got into those situations, he failed, grew, & overcame, but the key thing is, the success wasn't always accomplishing the task- the success was learning the lesson. He pretty much went through the Jedi Trials, just not in any 'official' way.


Just take the BIG things in his life... He failed with the remote, trusted the Force, & blocked the shots.

He tried to hit the exhaust port, failed, tried again while using the Force, & it went boom.

He failed with the X-Wing, but learned that size didn't matter (giggidy).

He thought he knew better than Yoda, failed in the cave, but learned that he could succumb to the Dark Side, just like Vader.

He thought he could face Vader & rescue his friends, but ended up losing Han & having to be rescued.

All those 'successes' & all those 'losses' only mattered if Luke learned the lesson. The Luke we had by the end of ROTJ had lived, won, & lost, but most importantly, he LEARNED.

It almost wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that in TLJ, Yoda said that failure was the greatest teacher(paraphrased). YES! LUKE KNOWS THAT! HE HAD A LIFE THAT TAUGHT HIM THAT LESSON!

So where did the Luke that we saw in the flashback come from. We get that he's on Ach-To because he felt like he failed Ben, but what made him the man standing over Ben ready to murder him over a glimpse of a POSSIBLE future? That was even a lesson Yoda told him. The future is hard to see, always changing(paraphrase).
I guess I've always seen ANH Luke as being pretty pessimistic. Like his conversation with Aunt and Uncle. When he's uncle asks him to stay on for one more season. And he's all. "That's what you said when Biggs and Tank left." "Where are you going?" "Looks like I'm going nowhere." Or when Threepio asks what planet he was. "If there's a bright center to the universe, your on the planet that is farthest from."

In my opinion I feel like Luke can be hopeful, but I don't if I'd call him optimistic. Yoda does say about him. "Always with you it can not be done."

To me it what makes Luke great though. He's very fallible, very human being as Threepio says, lol. But he always rises, in the end.
 

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HeartBlade

Sr Member
I love how they purposely leave out the first part of her quote. Which goes like this. "Here's what I think I know...."- Daisy Ridley "We didn't write a treatment..." - JJ Abrams
Elsewhere in an interview JJ says specifically he didn't have the time to write a script for 8 or 9, he solely focused on doing 7. So, yeah, it's a lie that JJ wrote anything for 8 that Rian tossed out.
so you want to go with the idea that Lucasfilm did absolutely no planning and let each director just wing it? Either way bad planning.

Having self identified as nobody is very different. That's the point. You have take everything that Rey has made peace with, in this case being her identity, and smash it with a wrecking ball.
So you say it takes a year to accept fully that you are nobody and no interesting stories can come from that because that what you are saying.

I know the time gap is a year. You were to one who said not once, but twice that Rey came to grips in a weeks time! To quote you. "but Rey coming to terms with being a nobody in the span of days or weeks" "However, Rey mastering her internal conflict being a nobody (which is honestly a bigger shock) in severals days or weeks"


Making peace with where you came from so drastically different then controlling your dark side. Making peace with current situation, is one thing. Luke made peace and came to terms with being Darth Vader's son in years time. But controlling you dark side, particularly after given into before, is entirely different thing. Your never free of the dark side. "And the only other Jedi lesson I can teach you today, Padawan, is that you don’t conquer the dark side and then that’s it. You don’t just overcome it. You are tested and tested and tested. There is always another test. These are the trials. And I think people trivialize it into thinking, ‘Well, I defeated the dark side.’ Yes, you did on Monday, but now there’s more. Because your hubris can get a hold of you. Because remember Yoda says in the prequels that even the older Jedi have become arrogant." - Dave Filoni
Weeks vs years relatively. Rey has 1 year to come to terms with being nobody which shapes her entire identity. Luke had 30 years. Or do you want to show us the scenes where Mace Windu and Yoda preemptively strike down Anakin because he is destined to be Darth Vader?

"Lol", nothing. Star Wars is a fantasy universe. Palpatine being dead doesn't mean squat. Particularly a universe that has previously established that death isn't exactly permanent.
rofl. I cant believe you are arguing that a consequence free universe is a good thing. And where has it been established in the movies that death isnt permanent? Anakin is an idiot since if he waited, his mom and Padme would return in the next movie.

And the prophecy? A prophecy that was misinterpreted by the Jedi? A prophecy which says nothing about destroying the Sith. A prophecy that actually never appears in the films. A prophecy that is retcon to make Anakin more important. That George was fully intending to retcon. That prophecy? What about it?
Umm what retcon? PT introduces the prophecy and it is fulfilled in OT. Unless you mean ST retcons it by making Rey the new one?

And there is a good explanation. The dark side of the Force is pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. That coupled with fanatical followers that have the ability to create clones and strandcast, equals a returned Palpatine, that's neither alive or dead. A sick inversion of the Jedi's ability to achieve immortality. One does it by giving into the Force. The other resists the Force. A little Tolkien.

Here's something for you. Palpatine returning actually has more explanation, presented on screen, then do Force Spirits or Darth Maul.... Literally, Force Spirits have no explanation, nothing on why some Jedi can and some can't. The Clone Wars touch on it, but it's still vague.
what explanation. And Darth Maul returning in clone wars and Solo I agree is stupid which only occured because Maul is a fan-favorite.

Force spirits is implied to be a force power Qui Gon learned and taught to Obi Wan and Yoda. It used to be a good thing since they were only guides, unable to interact with the real world (until ST).

Palpatine’s revelation works in a similar fashion. When look back, after the revelation of Palpatine's return it all makes sense. In the Prequels we know that Palpatine is always 5 moves ahead of everyone. We find that he is trying to discover his master's ability to cheat death. He's discovery of the mask of Darth Momin. His trying to access the World Between Worlds in Rebels. In ROTJ, he's so certain of himself, completely unafraid of death, he cares not it Luke kills him. The First Order's rise to power that was orchestrated by Palpatine before his "death." Kylo has this strange devotion to Vader's mask, and asks it to show him the dark side. And speaks to it directly, calling it grandfather. Then it's revealed that Palpatine achieved his goal of cheating death. He created the First Order for himself (makes sense). And had masquerading as Vader.

Chris Terrio speaks to this idea. "Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie. This fits well with J.J. because he loves magic tricks. When you rewatch the earlier films, things start to make additional sense. Ren and his devotion to the idea of his grandfather. The voice that he’s always heard in his head. The certain similarities between Snoke and Palpatine. The intention was that, by the time you get to Episode IX, you realize there were real reasons this is all happening. It all shows how this story is being fought cyclically through the series."
Foreshadowing needs to be hints of things that occur before the reveal so that after, you can rewatch the earlier movies and pick up hints of Palpatine's existence. So things in TFA and TLJ. The Snoke is Palpatine reveal would have worked if it appeared in TLJ, with like seeing the Vader mask talk and hearing the voice. Shoving everything in RoS as an explanation is essentially akin to a reton ( what you knew was actually wrong because this). If this is how Lucasfilm wanted to write the story, they really arnt that creative or good at writing.

Cal Kestis(Jedi Fallen Order) Quinlan Vos(The Clone Wars) are both canon, not Legends.....
Dont remember any objects calling out to them.
I need read and comprehend? To quote you again. "...when he was previously Luke..."
The point being made that Finn was previously in a main character/lead role like Luke and was demoted to supporting character like Han in the later movies. I know understand why you cant understand most of the points im making.

Oh no he's the first character we see in the trailer! Seriously? Trailers are totally not purposely misleading...

He goes searching for BB-8? Say what now? Just stop making stuff up....

Rey takes a more passive role.... Really? I thought Rey was a "Mary Sue" who does everything and never needs help??? Oh wait, only when she needs to be for the argument.

Who runs them to a ship and flies them through the Graveyard of Giants? Who comes up with idea of killing the Stormtroopers? Who tries to stop the pirates? Who saves Finn from the Rathars? The answer is Rey, to all of those, not Finn. Really passive..... Bonus question, who tries to run away and leave their new friends? That's right, Finn does.
I said Finn is a duel and arguable more main lead character than Rey in TFA. Just watch TFA with an open mind and tell me how important Finn is to the story. Rey is resistant to change and is more passive, wanting to remain on Jakku.

Yeah I forgot he didnt go looking for BB-8. he just happened to run into Rey and BB (excellent writing /s). Funny how you jump on Rey and dont discuss the main point which is that Finn is essentially a main character with close to equal action and contribution to the story as Rey in TFA. Yes Finn runs away because that is his character. Funny that the camera focuses on him and his return to save Rey. If he was a side character, they probably would have written him out until he makes a surprise return to save Rey.

And you clearly dont understand what a Mary Sue is and why those criticisms apply to Rey. Rey is never in any mortal danger that requires outside assistance. She escapes Starkiller base on her own, is able to use advanced jedi powers immediately upon awakening them, never has any critical weaknesses that result in a loss or maiming, actually never loses a fight, need I go on? For a good example, think Captain Marvel in the MCU who basically goes through Rey's exact storyline and character development to a T.

Without Finn's Force sensitivity they wouldn't have known which Star Destroyer to attack. But even if taking him out doesn't change anything. What does that matter? Take Indiana Jones out of Raider's of the Lost Ark and same ending is reached. Sometimes it isn't about what the characters do for the story. Sometimes it's about what the story does for the characters. Or the what the characters do for each other. Finn has an interesting story in TROS. He's realization that he's Force sensitive, and that it was the Force that led to rebel against his "programing." .
Lol what does it matter if we take a character out. Point is Finn was a main character whose actions had impact in TFA. He is demoted to side character whose actions and influence have gradually less impact as the movies go on.

Are we referencing the big bang theory now? Indiana Jones is the driving force to find the ark. If Indy wasnt there, the Nazis would have kept digging in the wrong place. Indy finds the actual ark, loses it to the Nazis who open it and kill themselves, and has it delivered to the US government which is then left in a warehouse. If anything, Indy made things worse by helping the Nazis find the lost ark. Try to get the joke right.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
I fully believe that Order 66 should have come in Episode 2. Anakin needed more time as able bodied Vader too. The final movie should have been the remnants of the Jedi (Obi-Wan) in a last ditch to save the Republic, leading to Anakin's disfigurement etc.
To be fair to Lucas, he had a lot to cover in episode 2. The beginning of the war, setting up the creation of the army that eventually becomes stormtroopers, and covering Anakin and Padme's love story. Maybe it would have made more sense if Lucas expanded the PT into 5 films, adding one between 2 and 3 which covered the actual clone wars (and gave some set up for Grevious who comes out of nowhere for movie goers), and splitting 3 into clone wars end and rise of able bodied Vader and fall of jedi order and Vader into artificial body Vader.

I think it is also implied that if able bodied Vader gained some experience, he would have destroyed even Yoda since Yoda is close to Sidious and Vader is expected to be far stronger than Sidious. If Marvel's what if series does well, they could do a what if Vader didnt lose to Obi Wan and make a series from there.

Im not sure how I feel about Jango assassinating jedi since jedi do have the force to alert them of danger. The reason why Order 66 worked was because the jedi were in the midst of a war and were overwhelmed when the order was in effect. Jango could probably assassinate some regular jedi or apprentices though like he did during the Geonosis arena.
 

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