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Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
I agree Lucas isnt the savior and he does need someone to bounce ideas off of but I honestly think thats true of any creative endeavor, especially as the medium becomes more complex. Tolkien got some support from CS Lewis while mapping out Middle Earth for Lord of the Rings. Manga is often created as a team of at least 2 people (one to write the story and dialogue and one to draw). TV has a team of writers, let alone the rest of the production staff. Movies even more so.

I think Lucas knew that himself, hence why the first thing he did when making PT was to reach out to veteran directors like Howard or Spielberg to direct. They unfortunately turned him down.

If Disney had a brain, they would have still used Lucas as a consultant. It's his universe and I think with the Sequels there needed to be an adult in the room to look at what they were doing, before filming, and go "No that's not SW." I think that's why most of the designs, from vehicles to characters to locations were so bad. If you've ever watched or read an interview with the concept artists, they always said Lucas would look at their designs and sometimes veto them, tell them what to change to make it SW, or flip things around to make them look like SW. That was missing in the Sequels.
 

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DARTH ANIBAL

Sr Member
If Disney had a brain, they would have still used Lucas as a consultant. It's his universe and I think with the Sequels there needed to be an adult in the room to look at what they were doing, before filming, and go "No that's not SW." I think that's why most of the designs, from vehicles to characters to locations were so bad. If you've ever watched or read an interview with the concept artists, they always said Lucas would look at their designs and sometimes veto them, tell them what to change to make it SW, or flip things around to make them look like SW. That was missing in the Sequels.
Um...LOTS of things in the prequels didn't look very Star Wars.
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
Um...LOTS of things in the prequels didn't look very Star Wars.

If you go by the SW look being defined by the OT, then no. It wasn't supposed to look the same as the OT. I would also say Lucas defines what is SW and what isn't, not us because we don't know until he put it up on screen. I should add that some people get it apart from Lucas though because everything in The Mandalorian looks like it fits in the universe.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
If Disney had a brain, they would have still used Lucas as a consultant. It's his universe and I think with the Sequels there needed to be an adult in the room to look at what they were doing, before filming, and go "No that's not SW." I think that's why most of the designs, from vehicles to characters to locations were so bad. If you've ever watched or read an interview with the concept artists, they always said Lucas would look at their designs and sometimes veto them, tell them what to change to make it SW, or flip things around to make them look like SW. That was missing in the Sequels.

Im going to be fair to Disney but I do think from a business perspective, it may have been the “right” choice in their mind to distance themselves from Lucas.

Although I think its unfair, Lucas was basically considered a joke as a director and creator by the time Lucasfilm was being sold. Lucas made the SE editions and PT which many outspoken fans hated. Lucas then also created Indy 4 with the crystal skull and that was pretty terrible too (looking more objectively I understand what they were trying to go for but I didnt feel like Indiana Jones. Also 3 ended the series so well that the fourth felt really unneeded).

Disney was also hit it big in their creative endeavors with the MCU. Being tied to Lucas’ vision would be saying to the fans we are bringing more PT which may alienate their audience and they wanted to “refresh” the franchise so to speak.

Disney also probably thought that they had the right people and didnt need Lucas. They had Kennedy who was personally appointed by Lucas, had a great resume, and glowing recommendations from Spielberg. They also revived a dead franchise with Marvel with the MCU and thought they could do it again with Star Wars.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
Btw, not sure how “legitimate” this is but this is what we know about Lucas’ proposed sequel.


To me, its really clear that Lucas knows a bit about war, notably the motivations for it as Star War is focused on how states rise and fall.

The republic fell due to political deadlock during a time of crisis, resulting in the rise of a dictator who never gave up power much like Rome.

Abuse of power centralized in one authority makes a common enemy, allowing allies to be made to fight against the oppressor, resulting in the rebellion to overthrow the tyrant.

But the most volatile period would be after the revolution is won. After a successful revolt, there is an absence of clear authority because no one has a monopoly yet. With no clear authority, it is a ripe breeding ground for ambitious people to seize power. Stormtroopers probably had it good relatively under the Empire and would want to reestablish the system, also having access to training and weapons. I doubt the rebellion all had the exact same vision of a new government and new leader and would have fallen into infighting (aka French Revolution and Napoleon’s rise).

I do wonder how Leia would have “saved” the galaxy since I dont think her becoming supreme chancellor and being the “chosen ruler” is the answer Lucas wants to give. Luke definitely wouldnt have died since he needs to reestablish the jedi order.
He seems to covering George's "plan" as as given the "Star Wars Archives: Prequel Trilogy" book. But this contradicts, with everything we've been told by those in Lucasfilm about George's treatment they started working off of. Namely, in this treatment, the story takes place a few years after ROTJ (hello digital Luke, Han, and Leia!). Whereas the treatment that Lucasfilm started working off of, took place 30 years after ROTJ. With Luke dying in episode 8. So what the heck is going on? There is so much contradictory reports of the development of the ST.

I see a couple options. A) George just came up with a bunch of ideas that he called a treatment(s?) and sold them to Disney for more money. Or B) he gave them one treatment, then after the big sell, he came up with something different, then got mad when then didn't use this new thing he came up with. It's telling that Michael Ardnt's 40 to 50 page treatment which was based (supposedly)off of George's treatment, set 30 years after ROTJ....

But then JJ said when he came on board the mandate was to start from scratch. But Lawrence Kasdan says that when he and JJ came on board it was to help Michael Ardnt. Kathleen claims they didn't throw out George's story but moved the timeline, which jives with the notion that Michael Ardnt suggested they move Rey(called Taryn, Thea, and then Winkie by George) finding Luke from the middle of episode 7, to the end of episode 7 and have their story play out in 8 instead of 7. But then George claims they threw out everything, and Bob Iger seems to suggest the same thing. So who knows what the heck went on......
 
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HeartBlade

Sr Member
He seems to covering George's "plan" as as given the "Star Wars Archives: Prequel Trilogy" book. But this contradicts, with everything we've been told by those in Lucasfilm about George's treatment they started working off of. Namely, in this treatment, the story takes place a few years after ROTJ (hello digital Luke, Han, and Leia!). Whereas the treatment that Lucasfilm started working off of, took place 30 years after ROTJ. With Luke dying in episode 8. So what the heck is going on? There is so much contradictory reports of the development of the ST.

I see a couple options. A) George just came up with a bunch of ideas that he called a treatment(s?) and sold them to Disney for more money. Or B) he gave them one treatment, then after the big sell, he came up with something different, then got mad when then didn't use this new thing he came up with. It's telling that Michael Ardnt's 40 to 50 page treatment which was based (supposedly)off of George's treatment, set 30 years after ROTJ....

But then JJ said when came on board the mandate was to start from scratch. But Lawrence says when he and JJ came on board it was to help Michael. Kathleen claims they didn't throw out George's story but moved the timeline, which jives with the notion that Michael Ardnt suggested they move Rey(called Taryn, Thea, and then Winkie by George) finding Luke from the middle of episodes 7 to the end of episode 7 and have their story play out in 8 instead of 7. But then George claims they threw out everything, and Bob Iger seems to suggest the same thing. So who knows what the heck went on......
I agree with you that there is a lot of contradictory information.

I dont think your proposed b is reasonable though. B requires Lucas to work on initial ideas, sell them to Iger, completely revamp those ideas and then offer them to Disney for free. Unless this was Lucas trying to get more money, Iger said no, and Lucas spins it as Disney abandoned his treatments.

The thing i find contentious about Disney’s claim to be working off Lucas’ treatments is if this other treatment exists, the ST veered very far from the treatment, only picking up the return of the core 3 and Rey. I honestly doubt the treatments were referenced at all since Kennedy did make the claim they were making Star Wars blind and with no source material. The treatments would be the Star Wars equivalent of having Stan Lee or Jack Kirby writing drafts of storylines exclusively for the MCU. I think Iger also implied he dumped the treatments in his memoir which is why Lucas was pissed when Abrams asked him to review the script for 7 since Lucas found almost nothing from his treatments in the new script.

Also doesnt change the fact that ST then veered off course again with TLJ which is where the storytelling breaks down. Its been stated by Rian himself that he had alot of creative freedom and that he also wrote the script, noting he was surprised by the amount of artistic license given. We know Abrams made treatments for 8 and 9 which Johnson ignored, hence the breakdown and massive retcons in 9.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
I agree with you that there is a lot of contradictory information.

I dont think your proposed b is reasonable though. B requires Lucas to work on initial ideas, sell them to Iger, completely revamp those ideas and then offer them to Disney for free. Unless this was Lucas trying to get more money, Iger said no, and Lucas spins it as Disney abandoned his treatments.

The thing i find contentious about Disney’s claim to be working off Lucas’ treatments is if this other treatment exists, the ST veered very far from the treatment, only picking up the return of the core 3 and Rey. I honestly doubt the treatments were referenced at all since Kennedy did make the claim they were making Star Wars blind and with no source material. The treatments would be the Star Wars equivalent of having Stan Lee or Jack Kirby writing drafts of storylines exclusively for the MCU. I think Iger also implied he dumped the treatments in his memoir which is why Lucas was pissed when Abrams asked him to review the script for 7 since Lucas found almost nothing from his treatments in the new script.

Also doesnt change the fact that ST then veered off course again with TLJ which is where the storytelling breaks down. Its been stated by Rian himself that he had alot of creative freedom and that he also wrote the script, noting he was surprised by the amount of artistic license given. We know Abrams made treatments for 8 and 9 which Johnson ignored, hence the breakdown and massive retcons in 9.
So, again, more contradictions. It was Daisy Ridley that said she thought that JJ wrote a script. JJ denies that. Saying they didn't have time to write another. But that he and Lawrence Kasdan came up with some ideas for the story going forward. And that Rian very much went in the direction they were thinking. Now of course Rian said he had a lot of freedom and wasn't told he HAD to do anything. I fully believe him. But what we completely discount is that maybe Rian was just a team player. And happily picked up the ideas given to him by JJ and Lawrence and the Lucasfilm Story Group and IPDG. We know that he was continually meeting with members of the group(s) while writing. And he had Dave Filoni on set with him. I'm sure those two talked a lot. Dave certainly loved what Rian did.

And the funny thing is. From all reports, TLJ uses the most of George's treatment(s). Here's some things from George's treatment(s). This is by no means comprehensive.
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And said concept art. Christian was told(I believe by George himself) that Luke "hiding in a cave from the world."
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So all of these things are from George. But now George says that his treatment took place only a few years after ROTJ??? Something is fishy. Someone or someones is not telling the truth.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
I agree with you that there is a lot of contradictory information.

I dont think your proposed b is reasonable though. B requires Lucas to work on initial ideas, sell them to Iger, completely revamp those ideas and then offer them to Disney for free. Unless this was Lucas trying to get more money, Iger said no, and Lucas spins it as Disney abandoned his treatments.

The thing i find contentious about Disney’s claim to be working off Lucas’ treatments is if this other treatment exists, the ST veered very far from the treatment, only picking up the return of the core 3 and Rey. I honestly doubt the treatments were referenced at all since Kennedy did make the claim they were making Star Wars blind and with no source material. The treatments would be the Star Wars equivalent of having Stan Lee or Jack Kirby writing drafts of storylines exclusively for the MCU. I think Iger also implied he dumped the treatments in his memoir which is why Lucas was pissed when Abrams asked him to review the script for 7 since Lucas found almost nothing from his treatments in the new script.

Also doesnt change the fact that ST then veered off course again with TLJ which is where the storytelling breaks down. Its been stated by Rian himself that he had alot of creative freedom and that he also wrote the script, noting he was surprised by the amount of artistic license given. We know Abrams made treatments for 8 and 9 which Johnson ignored, hence the breakdown and massive retcons in 9.
The other thing I forget to touch on is this idea that 9 massively retconned 8. That's utter crap. The only potential retcon is Rey's parentage. Sort of. I mean if Rian really wanted to say that Rey was nobody that come from nowhere. He chose the worst way to do it. We receive this information from Kylo Ren after a vision which is going to be naturally tainted by the dark side. Like this is probably the second most unreliable person to get this info from. Rian himself, when questioned if TLJ revealed Rey's parentage said, before catching himself. "It depends if you trust....." And he stops. If this was truly the direction they wanted to go, then a more reliable source to confirm this would have been in order. Like Leia or Luke.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
Even if the ST was exactly what Lucas hand in mind it doesn't give it any more credence or make it any better than what it was. Jar Jar Binks, midi-chlorians, 10 year old/teenage Anakin Skywalker, Nemoidians, over using CGI, etc. were all his vision. He's not a god, just a guy with some really great ideas and some not so.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
The more I think about it, the more idk if I'd support remaking the ST with or without Lucas involved as there's more than enough unnecessary retconning occurring. As bad as the ST was I don't really have faith that Lucasfilm would do a better job the second time. It doesn't seem like they've learned much from their mistakes and could make things worse. Might be wise to just chalk the ST up as a hot mess, lesson learned and leave it alone. If the remakes weren't universally loved the retconning would probably continue.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Even if the ST was exactly what Lucas hand in mind it doesn't give it any more credence or make it any better than what it was. Jar Jar Binks, midi-chlorians, 10 year old/teenage Anakin Skywalker, Nemoidians, over using CGI, etc. were all his vision. He's not a god, just a guy with some really great ideas and some not so.
Not saying it make it good or bad. I'm just trying to make heads or tails of all the inconsistent information. Plus when Star Wars Theory puts out a video, that goes over only half of what we know. He's just stirring up the pot and getting that angry mob going again. But then again that gets him views, it he actually told the everything we heard, he probably wouldn't have as many views. He's basically pandering to his audience.
 

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Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
Even if the ST was exactly what Lucas hand in mind it doesn't give it any more credence or make it any better than what it was. Jar Jar Binks, midi-chlorians, 10 year old/teenage Anakin Skywalker, Nemoidians, over using CGI, etc. were all his vision. He's not a god, just a guy with some really great ideas and some not so.

I gotta point out that the midichlorians weren't introduced for the Prequels, they were there in the earliest days of Star Wars. In Rinzler's Making of SW book Lucas mentions midichlorians, I *think* while answering someone involved in the movie's question, around 1977.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
I gotta point out that the midichlorians weren't introduced for the Prequels, they were there in the earliest days of Star Wars. In Rinzler's Making of SW book Lucas mentions midichlorians, I *think* while answering someone involved in the movie's question, around 1977.
Yeah, George added the part about midi-chlorians. It wasn't in the original quote. While he was clearly thinking that some people naturally have a stronger connection to the Force then others. Midi-chlorians were not a thing.
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
Yeah, George added the part about midi-chlorians. It wasn't in the original quote. While he was clearly thinking that some people naturally have a stronger connection to the Force then others. Midi-chlorians were not a thing.

Huh? It says in the book that it was interviews from the time Star Wars (ANH) was being made. That's the premise for Rinzler's books, to use period interviews, not stuff from the present which could be wrong do to time/bad memory. So why would they let Lucas add that?
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Huh? It says in the book that it was interviews from the time Star Wars (ANH) was being made. That's the premise for Rinzler's books, to use period interviews, not stuff from the present which could be wrong do to time/bad memory. So why would they let Lucas add that?
Here's the original quote.
"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different."

And the amended quote.
"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells."

And Rinzler's notes.
[Please note: While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy.]


 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
The other thing I forget to touch on is this idea that 9 massively retconned 8. That's utter crap. The only potential retcon is Rey's parentage. Sort of. I mean if Rian really wanted to say that Rey was nobody that come from nowhere. He chose the worst way to do it. We receive this information from Kylo Ren after a vision which is going to be naturally tainted by the dark side. Like this is probably the second most unreliable person to get this info from. Rian himself, when questioned if TLJ revealed Rey's parentage said, before catching himself. "It depends if you trust....." And he stops. If this was truly the direction they wanted to go, then a more reliable source to confirm this would have been in order. Like Leia or Luke.
Come on. 9 did retcon 8 alot or it was just really badly written.

Yes I can buy that Kylo Ren lied to Rey that she was a nobody, maybe to manipulate her to his side and would make him cunning. However, 9 retcons it to no she is Palepatine’s kid and Kylo Ren is the one that tells her? Backstory was basically retconned.

Palpatine was shoved in to 9. Snoke seemed to be his own being in TFA, being a dark side master himself. In 8, he talks as if light with inevitably rise to meet the dark, a philosophy Palpatine never believed in since he was just focused on making the dark side stronger such as corrupting Anakin. He saw Anakin to be stronger than either of them and expected him to be without equal in 3.

Kylo’s development arguably got the most retcon though imo. In 8, its pretty clear that Ben has fallen to the dark side and cant be saved. Even Luke essentially gives up on him, telling him he isnt there to save him. This is likely meant to be the final fall, Kylo Ren becoming the big bad that Rey would need to defeat and possibly redeem going into 9. 9 has Kylo Ren revert to pre 8, still struggling with the light and ultimately being redeemed by Han and Leia when he was built up to be the darth vader (final bad guy) in 8.

To be fair to RJ, this is discrepancies between 8 and 9 which he wasnt involved in and can be chalked up to 9 being just really badly written. Palestine’s goal (kill Rey, no strike me down so ill transfer into you, no both come together so ill regain my strength, you struck me down now what?) is just illogical and the themes and characters in 8 dont carry over into 9. Rose was literally put on a ship out of the movie.
 

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