Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.


batguy

Sr Member
Once you know a murder suspect is telling lies, there's no point trying to make sense out of the parts of his story that seem illogical. He was making stuff up. There probably isn't any logic in there for you to find.

Lucasfilm didn't stick to a plan for the ST after the first movie. There's no point in trying to make any further sense of it.
 

Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Come on. 9 did retcon 8 alot or it was just really badly written.

Yes I can buy that Kylo Ren lied to Rey that she was a nobody, maybe to manipulate her to his side and would make him cunning. However, 9 retcons it to no she is Palepatine’s kid and Kylo Ren is the one that tells her? Backstory was basically retconned.

Palpatine was shoved in to 9. Snoke seemed to be his own being in TFA, being a dark side master himself. In 8, he talks as if light with inevitably rise to meet the dark, a philosophy Palpatine never believed in since he was just focused on making the dark side stronger such as corrupting Anakin. He saw Anakin to be stronger than either of them and expected him to be without equal in 3.

Kylo’s development arguably got the most retcon though imo. In 8, its pretty clear that Ben has fallen to the dark side and cant be saved. Even Luke essentially gives up on him, telling him he isnt there to save him. This is likely meant to be the final fall, Kylo Ren becoming the big bad that Rey would need to defeat and possibly redeem going into 9. 9 has Kylo Ren revert to pre 8, still struggling with the light and ultimately being redeemed by Han and Leia when he was built up to be the darth vader (final bad guy) in 8.

To be fair to RJ, this is discrepancies between 8 and 9 which he wasnt involved in and can be chalked up to 9 being just really badly written. Palestine’s goal (kill Rey, no strike me down so ill transfer into you, no both come together so ill regain my strength, you struck me down now what?) is just illogical and the themes and characters in 8 dont carry over into 9. Rose was literally put on a ship out of the movie.
Just looking a what's in the films. The dark side (like we can trust that to be a reliable narrator) shows Kylo Ren Rey's parents. Her parents living the life of Jakku junk traders. And that's what the dark side showed him, so he claims. I mean one night he tells Rey they threw her away like garbage. And the next night he tells her they sold her for drinking money. And Kylo never sees, so he claims, past her parents, he doesn't see her grandparents, or in this case grandparent.

I mean Snoke is still his own person. Sure he's a puppet, but in the same way Maul, Dooku, or Vader was. With that said, the lean very heavily into Wizard of Oz, with his style. Massive holograms, his throne room with the curtains. And his syntax in TLJ begins to emulate Palpatine. And of there is Palpatine's theme breifly used. And Snoke talking about the light rising to meet the dark, is something that Palpatine would totally be in to. I mean he knows that the Force is going to try and balance itself. Anakin was created for the purpose of countering Palpatine's dark machinations. That's why Palpatine must turn Anakin.

Ben/Kylo's development is no retcon. No it's not clear that Ben can't be saved. That moment he reaches out for his father's dice. And no Luke does not give up on him. Holy smokes, that couldn't be farther from the truth. "I've held out hope for so long. But I know my son is gone." "No one is ever gone." This is what Luke says to his sister, right when she's lost the hope that son can be saved, he corrects her. This is set up for the next film. I mean as early as 2014, if not earlier, it was established that Kylo was set for redemption. And no he's not reverted to pre-episode 8. Kylo is very much set in the dark side. He knows now who he is. He doesn't exhibit any conflict anymore. He's reforged his helmet, taking on the mantle of next Darth Vader. His whole attitude is different throughout the film. The way he walks, talks, stands, fights, everything is different.....until the moment his mother reaches out to him and he feels her die. This is what gets to him.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Lucasfilm didn't stick to a plan for the ST after the first movie. There's no point in trying to make any further sense of it.
Well that's not true.
rL0QW0R.jpg


YtSNlqs.jpg
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
Here's the original quote.
"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different."

And the amended quote.
"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells."

And Rinzler's notes.
[Please note: While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy.]



I guess I should pay more attention then! :lol:
 

Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.

HeartBlade

Sr Member
Just looking a what's in the films. The dark side (like we can trust that to be a reliable narrator) shows Kylo Ren Rey's parents. Her parents living the life of Jakku junk traders. And that's what the dark side showed him, so he claims. I mean one night he tells Rey they threw her away like garbage. And the next night he tells her they sold her for drinking money. And Kylo never sees, so he claims, past her parents, he doesn't see her grandparents, or in this case grandparent.

I mean Snoke is still his own person. Sure he's a puppet, but in the same way Maul, Dooku, or Vader was. With that said, the lean very heavily into Wizard of Oz, with his style. Massive holograms, his throne room with the curtains. And his syntax in TLJ begins to emulate Palpatine. And of there is Palpatine's theme breifly used. And Snoke talking about the light rising to meet the dark, is something that Palpatine would totally be in to. I mean he knows that the Force is going to try and balance itself. Anakin was created for the purpose of countering Palpatine's dark machinations. That's why Palpatine must turn Anakin.

Ben/Kylo's development is no retcon. No it's not clear that Ben can't be saved. That moment he reaches out for his father's dice. And no Luke does not give up on him. Holy smokes, that couldn't be farther from the truth. "I've held out hope for so long. But I know my son is gone." "No one is ever gone." This is what Luke says to his sister, right when she's lost the hope that son can be saved, he corrects her. This is set up for the next film. I mean as early as 2014, if not earlier, it was established that Kylo was set for redemption. And no he's not reverted to pre-episode 8. Kylo is very much set in the dark side. He knows now who he is. He doesn't exhibit any conflict anymore. He's reforged his helmet, taking on the mantle of next Darth Vader. His whole attitude is different throughout the film. The way he walks, talks, stands, fights, everything is different.....until the moment his mother reaches out to him and he feels her die. This is what gets to him.
Oh come on. They make a big deal about how Rey is nobody and that she has no part in the story, that she is the unchosen one which would make it more meaningful when she does cut her own part in the story. Oh nevermind, she actually is the granddaughter of the most powerful Sith and is also powerful. It completely changes Rey’s characterization the fact that this is delivered by Ben who is now an unreliable source is just the icing on the cake. We should have had Rey calling BS.

Palpatine was not foreshadowed at all. Its been discussed already that music can borrow from others so similar tunes can occur, let alone the fact that since the ST is very fanservice heavy in some respects that the theme being reused can be a homage to the OT as opposed to its own thing. Successful foreshadowing should have multiple hints throughout to indicate that the Emperor is still alive that just arnt there.

Anakin was not created to balance out Palpatine. This is explicitly refuted in PT. If the EU is still correct, Anakin was created in direct response to Palguis using the force to create life. If not, Anakin is the one, the person prophesied to bring balance to the force and can into being. He is not Palpatine’s equal, he is far superior to him and any other force user that ever lived and supposedly would ever lice, hence why Palpatine wants him explicitly and would settle for Luke since Anakin was crippled beyond belief.

Except he is essentially. Kylo Ren at the end of 8 becomes supreme leader. He is now the big bad that the resistance needs to take down. He should be soaked in the dark side and seems to indicate that in 8. He tells Luke not to bother and Luke states he hasnt come to save him. And yet he is redeemed by Han and Leia which was the proposed idea in 7.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
Why must you ruin their narrative with facts! ST bad! Kennedy bad! Grrrrr!

Lol the fact that Leia remains the savior is not proof that they stuck to the overall story, just one character development arc they wanted to follow through on. The interview honestly speaks more to the mindset of the writers, lets talk about feminism and girl power. The basic story beats (who the villain is, the main and supporting characters, development arcs) were a mess. Bodega makes the good point that despite being a main character, Finn was essentially demoted to supporting cast with minimal development. I disagree with the assertion of racism but more just bad writing.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Oh come on. They make a big deal about how Rey is nobody and that she has no part in the story, that she is the unchosen one which would make it more meaningful when she does cut her own part in the story. Oh nevermind, she actually is the granddaughter of the most powerful Sith and is also powerful. It completely changes Rey’s characterization the fact that this is delivered by Ben who is now an unreliable source is just the icing on the cake. We should have had Rey calling BS.

Palpatine was not foreshadowed at all. Its been discussed already that music can borrow from others so similar tunes can occur, let alone the fact that since the ST is very fanservice heavy in some respects that the theme being reused can be a homage to the OT as opposed to its own thing. Successful foreshadowing should have multiple hints throughout to indicate that the Emperor is still alive that just arnt there.

Anakin was not created to balance out Palpatine. This is explicitly refuted in PT. If the EU is still correct, Anakin was created in direct response to Palguis using the force to create life. If not, Anakin is the one, the person prophesied to bring balance to the force and can into being. He is not Palpatine’s equal, he is far superior to him and any other force user that ever lived and supposedly would ever lice, hence why Palpatine wants him explicitly and would settle for Luke since Anakin was crippled beyond belief.

Except he is essentially. Kylo Ren at the end of 8 becomes supreme leader. He is now the big bad that the resistance needs to take down. He should be soaked in the dark side and seems to indicate that in 8. He tells Luke not to bother and Luke states he hasnt come to save him. And yet he is redeemed by Han and Leia which was the proposed idea in 7.
They make a big deal? Who makes a big deal? Who's they?

Tell me, how many films does Palpatine appear in prior to the Sequel Trilogy? 5 out of 6. How many times is he mentioned? 6 out of 6. You don't need any freaking "foreshadowing" with an character like that. It's not like this is first time we've seen him. This isn't just a similar tune, this is Palpatine's leitmotif. And context, context, context. The usage of Palpatine's theme is not just a homage, actually, as far a I can remember, none of the old themes are ever just reused for nostalgia sake, or homage. Particularly TLJ.

Anakin was created by the Force to bring balance to it. An imbalance caused by, Palpatine and the Sith. Their working in the shadows for the last 1,000 years had swung to the balance of the Force to the dark side. Anakin. Anakin ends the Banite Sith, and through his children and grandchild, peace and justice is restored end the eventual destruction Sith Eternal Cult.

I'm just going to leave a couple of things that Rian had to say about Ben's redemption. “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”
“I think that’s such a beautiful notion of ‘What does he regret in that moment,’” Johnson said. “The same way I think about in Revenge of the Sith, that mask is coming down, that beautiful shot of Anakin [Skywalker] and his eyes right before it goes over and you see that glimpse of ‘Is it fear? Is it regret? What is it? What is going through his mind at that moment?’ That’s that kind of moment for Ben and I don’t want to put that moment in your guys’ head. I feel like that’s a moment that everyone should read into themselves.”
And I should mention, Kylo is fully in the dark side. He has become what he wanted to be, in episode 9. He is Vader. We never see that angry rage filled tantrums again, like in the previous two films. He's now cold, and calculating. He barely raises his voice. He's the supreme leader, and soon, once he Rey turned, they'll kill Palpatine, and he'll be the Emperor of the galaxy. He can make everything the way they should be. Just like his grandfather wanted.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
They make a big deal? Who makes a big deal? Who's they?

Tell me, how many films does Palpatine appear in prior to the Sequel Trilogy? 5 out of 6. How many times is he mentioned? 6 out of 6. You don't need any freaking "foreshadowing" with an character like that. It's not like this is first time we've seen him. This isn't just a similar tune, this is Palpatine's leitmotif. And context, context, context. The usage of Palpatine's theme is not just a homage, actually, as far a I can remember, none of the old themes are ever just reused for nostalgia sake, or homage. Particularly TLJ.

Anakin was created by the Force to bring balance to it. An imbalance caused by, Palpatine and the Sith. Their working in the shadows for the last 1,000 years had swung to the balance of the Force to the dark side. Anakin. Anakin ends the Banite Sith, and through his children and grandchild, peace and justice is restored end the eventual destruction Sith Eternal Cult.

I'm just going to leave a couple of things that Rian had to say about Ben's redemption. “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”
“I think that’s such a beautiful notion of ‘What does he regret in that moment,’” Johnson said. “The same way I think about in Revenge of the Sith, that mask is coming down, that beautiful shot of Anakin [Skywalker] and his eyes right before it goes over and you see that glimpse of ‘Is it fear? Is it regret? What is it? What is going through his mind at that moment?’ That’s that kind of moment for Ben and I don’t want to put that moment in your guys’ head. I feel like that’s a moment that everyone should read into themselves.”
And I should mention, Kylo is fully in the dark side. He has become what he wanted to be, in episode 9. He is Vader. We never see that angry rage filled tantrums again, like in the previous two films. He's now cold, and calculating. He barely raises his voice. He's the supreme leader, and soon, once he Rey turned, they'll kill Palpatine, and he'll be the Emperor of the galaxy. He can make everything the way they should be. Just like his grandfather wanted.
For one, RJ himself. He made the “difficult decision” of making Rey nobody because “to have her learn some kind of easy answer about noble ancestry would immediately zap away the important conflict [of self-discovery] and totally freeze and dismantle her important journey of self-discovery” which Abrams essentially did with Palpatine lineage. Retcon or bad writing.

And yet Palpatine is dead and done for at the end of 6, hence the fall of the Empire and the fairy tale happy ending celebration. His influence may have remained with apprentices or impact on the galaxy but the man himself was dead and if he wasnt, there should have been several hints of his existence, not just one blink and you miss theme. So its a retcon or bad writing.

“Anakin was created for the purpose of countering Palpatine's dark machinations. That's why Palpatine must turn Anakin.”

so this is wrong. First we cant take the Plaguis experiment birthed Anakin as true because that hasn't been revealed, only implied in 3 and with the Plaguis novel deemend noncanon, no longer a fact (isnt Disney great /s). And even if it was, Anakin came to destroy all the Sith and is thus more powerful than all of them. I see why OG fans hate this reveal because it just makes Anakin an OP entity but it is what it is.

I honestly dont remember 9 much since it was really forgettable apart from the major plot inconsistencies. Kylo never seemed self-assured in 9, always seeking validation or approval. Maybe that was his character arc and finally getting forgiveness from Han and his parents’ sacrifice is what redeems him.

But there are too many story elements in ST that are not developed well that the storyline is a mess. Im only focusing on TFA and TLJ because RoS goes off the rails but the lightsaber calling to Rey being dropped, Finn’s conflict and relationships with other First Order members like nines and Phasma ending prematurely. In many ways, TLJ would have been a great third/ending movie to the trilogy, giving a darker or more bittersweet ending to star wars.
 

robn1

Master Member
Why must you ruin their narrative with facts! ST bad! Kennedy bad! Grrrrr!
If you expect an official Lucasfilm/Disney publication to contain true facts about the BTS scuttlebutt then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.


Tell me, how many films does Palpatine appear in prior to the Sequel Trilogy? 5 out of 6. How many times is he mentioned? 6 out of 6. You don't need any freaking "foreshadowing" with an character like that. It's not like this is first time we've seen him. This isn't just a similar tune, this is Palpatine's leitmotif. And context, context, context. The usage of Palpatine's theme is not just a homage, actually, as far a I can remember, none of the old themes are ever just reused for nostalgia sake, or homage. Particularly TLJ.
The Obi-Wan theme played over the binary sunset scene. This was Luke's moment, Obi-Wan had nothing to do with it. The Obi-Wan theme was used because the melody fit the emotion of the scene. Character themes/leitmotifs are sometimes used simply for their sound even when that character is not involved. The Palpatine theme is used to represent the dark side, not necessarily Palpatine specifically. JJ pulled Palps out of his ass at the last minute, as evidenced by a number of interviews most notably with Daisy.
 

Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
I still maintain that this is discussion is really about justification of the ST, whether or not people will admit it. The ST is what it is whether or not any of Lucas's ideas were partially/entirely used. The fact that he hasn't outlined explicitly exactly what his plans were in great detail and that there are so many contradictions about this is very telling. He doesn't want to to touch the ST with a 10 foot pole because he hated it (unless he's magically changed his tune recently). It's very unlikely that the ST is what he would've done if he didn't like it lol. He's also probably protecting his legacy.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
Part of me would honestly love a full remake of the ST but the problem is that it would most likely be just as bad if not worse as the original ST and the retconning just needs to stop. I don't have faith that Disney even with Lucas involved, would do better a second time.
 
Last edited:

Joek3rr

Sr Member
If you expect an official Lucasfilm/Disney publication to contain true facts about the BTS scuttlebutt then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.



The Obi-Wan theme played over the binary sunset scene. This was Luke's moment, Obi-Wan had nothing to do with it. The Obi-Wan theme was used because the melody fit the emotion of the scene. Character themes/leitmotifs are sometimes used simply for their sound even when that character is not involved. The Palpatine theme is used to represent the dark side, not necessarily Palpatine specifically. JJ pulled Palps out of his ass at the last minute, as evidenced by a number of interviews most notably with Daisy.
Because it also represents the Force, not just Obi-Wan. When we first hear it, it's actually when Leia puts the Death Star plans into Artoo, who is been told to find Obi-Wan. Though we aren't aware of yet, John is connecting characters together that aren't on screen. Same with Luke, looking out at the sunset, longing for something else. What he doesn't know is the Force is at work, and he's about to meet old Ben Kenobi. But it's the music that connects them first. John doesn't just arbitrarily shove the leitmotifs in scenes.

In TLJ we some old familiar leitmotifs. Naturally we hear Luke Skywalker's theme, also called the Main Title. It's taken on a new meaning since the Prequels. We also hear the Force theme, when the Force is being discussed, or at work. That holds true for any film the saga. There's Leia's theme, for Leia. Yoda's theme for Yoda. But then there's three pieces. And these are played to connect characters that are not screen. The first is Darth Vader's theme/Imperial March, played as Snoke says that he thought Kylo could be the next Vader. The next is Han and Leia's theme, played as Luke talks about the two of them. And the third is Palpatine's, played briefly for Snoke. So all these old themes being used. They are either used for that character onsreen. Or to connect characters that aren't onscreen at the same time. Palpatine's theme falls in the later category. So, yes, John Williams was purposely connecting Snoke and Palpatine, musically.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
For one, RJ himself. He made the “difficult decision” of making Rey nobody because “to have her learn some kind of easy answer about noble ancestry would immediately zap away the important conflict [of self-discovery] and totally freeze and dismantle her important journey of self-discovery” which Abrams essentially did with Palpatine lineage. Retcon or bad writing.

And yet Palpatine is dead and done for at the end of 6, hence the fall of the Empire and the fairy tale happy ending celebration. His influence may have remained with apprentices or impact on the galaxy but the man himself was dead and if he wasnt, there should have been several hints of his existence, not just one blink and you miss theme. So its a retcon or bad writing.

“Anakin was created for the purpose of countering Palpatine's dark machinations. That's why Palpatine must turn Anakin.”

so this is wrong. First we cant take the Plaguis experiment birthed Anakin as true because that hasn't been revealed, only implied in 3 and with the Plaguis novel deemend noncanon, no longer a fact (isnt Disney great /s). And even if it was, Anakin came to destroy all the Sith and is thus more powerful than all of them. I see why OG fans hate this reveal because it just makes Anakin an OP entity but it is what it is.

I honestly dont remember 9 much since it was really forgettable apart from the major plot inconsistencies. Kylo never seemed self-assured in 9, always seeking validation or approval. Maybe that was his character arc and finally getting forgiveness from Han and his parents’ sacrifice is what redeems him.

But there are too many story elements in ST that are not developed well that the storyline is a mess. Im only focusing on TFA and TLJ because RoS goes off the rails but the lightsaber calling to Rey being dropped, Finn’s conflict and relationships with other First Order members like nines and Phasma ending prematurely. In many ways, TLJ would have been a great third/ending movie to the trilogy, giving a darker or more bittersweet ending to star wars.
First off, I couldn't care less if these things are retcons. The two(actually three) biggest plot points in the OT were pretty big retcons.

That would be the easy answer for Rey. For Rian he felt for Rey at that point, the hardest thing she could hear, is that she a nobody. That's literally her worst fear. And that's great. But she makes peace with, she accepts that. So moving into the next film, where's her internal conflict coming from? Luke's it's because he know now that Vader is his father, and he may be left with no choice but to kill him. So what's Rey's? If this story is about Rey forging her own path, despite who she is. What can you do to derail that? JJ and Terrio's answer is to pull the ground from under feet. She's just got herself established, she's starting feel confident despite being a nobody. And bam, a curve ball comes sailing in and smacks her aside the head......she's Darth Sidious's granddaughter. All that self confidence she gained, comes crumbling down in an instant. Now is the best way to continue her story? I'm not going say. I kinda like it. I see where JJ and Terrio are coming from. It was obviously a difficult decision to make for them. Because they definitely wrote a version(s) where Rey was a nobody, or so claims Daisy Ridley.

Yes Palpatine is dead. And everyone in Star Wars, and fantasy, and mythology, and pulpy serial stories remains dead.........NOT! If ROTJ had been the end of the story it would be one thing. But it's not. And no, I don't believe you need several hints at his existence. With only three films, there's very little you could put in them that wouldn't let the whole cat out of the bag. For me this is more then enough of a set up, and pay off. For me. :)
original.jpg

ba59aa902390996e75a70861620c3e1e.jpg



I'm not even talking about Plagueis. Anakin was created to bring balance. Palpatine was the one causing the imbalance. So Anakin was creat to counter Palpatine. It's no mistake that the moment that Palpatine begins to put into motion his master plan to take control of the galaxy, the Force serves of the Chosen One on silver platter for the Jedi. Palpatine is aware of the prophecy, and he knows he must work to undo it.

Kylo never seeks validation or approval in TROS. He's very sure of himself.

As far as your other points. The lightsaber calling to Rey, i.e. the Force is calling to Rey, is a set up and then paid off at the end of TFA, when accepts the call of the Force. I mean it's very clear that Rey has been chosen by the Force. She's had dreams of Ahch-To, and the Jedi library. And in TROS we see why, she's the other half a dyad, a Palpatine, and she's been destined to restore the balance that Anakin entially brought to the Force. Though one could way there's a second pay off when she takes on the Skywalker name, as the Force is calling to her with the Skywalker lightsaber. That's the long answer. Short answer. The Force was calling to her.

And Finn, tis true, they could have done more with his relationship with the First Order. But then again, I get why they wanted to focus on the main characters. They ended up repeating the same mistake ROTJ did. They get so focused on the main characters, your supporting characters just kinda end up existing, but not much else.
 

Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
Episode 10-12 spoilers:
Another Galactic Civil War is underway as it turned out few in the Galaxy really liked Rey, Poe or Finn and just went a long with them because everyone else of value was dead and they were what was presented. Dooku actually survived his fight with Anakin, has been enhanced with a robotic giraffe-like neck to reattach his severed head, was living in the underbelly of Coruscant plotting his revenge since the birth of the Empire. Using arcane dark side magic on Exegol he re-reincarnates Palpatine to help bring the Galaxy to its knees only to have Palpatine betray him again but this time killing Dooku himself with force lightning. Shocking. With Dooku actually dead(?) Palpatine takes advantage of New Republic infighting creating the "Second Galactic Empire" and builds a blackhole Super Weapon that can destroy the Galaxy at the push of a button to force everyone to submit. Original. He confronts Rey again and in a moment of arrogance tells her that she actually really is a Nobody, he had just made up her lineage on the spot as a plot device to get what he wanted and fix the hot mess that was left by Snoke. Frustrated Rey says that she doesn't want to take part in this complete ridiculousness anymore and leaves the story forever making her the hero of the newest trilogy. Rage sets in and Palpatine inadvertently sets off the Super Weapon destroying the Galaxy and making it completely impossible to bring back anyone, rewrite history or endlessly debate moot points. The creator of the Galaxy smiles knowing his legacy will no longer be tarnished by further idiotic plot lines or those wanting to bring him back into something that he started but certainly had little hand in finishing.
 
Last edited:

HeartBlade

Sr Member
Episode 10-12 spoilers:
Another Galactic Civil War is underway as it turned out few in the Galaxy really liked Rey, Poe or Finn and just went a long with them because everyone else of value was dead and they were what was presented. Dooku actually survived his fight with Anakin, has been enhanced with a robotic giraffe-like neck to reattach his severed head, was living in the underbelly of Coruscant plotting his revenge since the birth of the Empire. Using arcane dark side magic on Exegol he re-reincarnates Palpatine to help bring the Galaxy to its knees only to have Palpatine betray him again but this time killing Dooku himself with force lightning. Shocking. With Dooku actually dead(?) Palpatine takes advantage of New Republic infighting creating the "Second Galactic Empire" and builds a blackhole Super Weapon that can destroy the Galaxy at the push of a button to force everyone to submit. Original. He confronts Rey again and in a moment of arrogance tells her that she actually really is a Nobody, he had just made up her lineage on the spot as a plot device to get what he wanted and fix the hot mess that was left by Snoke. Frustrated Rey says that she doesn't want to take part in this complete ridiculousness anymore and leaves the story forever making her the hero of the newest trilogy. Rage sets in and Palpatine inadvertently sets off the Super Weapon destroying the Galaxy and making it completely impossible to bring back anyone, rewrite history or endlessly debate moot points. The creator of the Galaxy smiles knowing his legacy will no longer be tarnished by further idiotic plot lines or those wanting to bring him back into something that he started but certainly had little hand in finishing.
Not good enough. In reality, we find out that Rey isnt nobody but the spmebody, the grandmother of the force. She was the one who birthed the force and created midiclorians but was written out of histor because men wanted to take credit.

Finally getting her chance to shine after being reborn, Kath- I mean Rey sets out to fix everything wrong in the galaxy. Rose becomes lead commander of the fleet, Rey ressurects Holdo and Leia, and Rey takes her new position as ultimate queen of the galaxy and everyone loves her.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
First off, I couldn't care less if these things are retcons. The two(actually three) biggest plot points in the OT were pretty big retcons.

That would be the easy answer for Rey. For Rian he felt for Rey at that point, the hardest thing she could hear, is that she a nobody. That's literally her worst fear. And that's great. But she makes peace with, she accepts that. So moving into the next film, where's her internal conflict coming from? Luke's it's because he know now that Vader is his father, and he may be left with no choice but to kill him. So what's Rey's? If this story is about Rey forging her own path, despite who she is. What can you do to derail that? JJ and Terrio's answer is to pull the ground from under feet. She's just got herself established, she's starting feel confident despite being a nobody. And bam, a curve ball comes sailing in and smacks her aside the head......she's Darth Sidious's granddaughter. All that self confidence she gained, comes crumbling down in an instant. Now is the best way to continue her story? I'm not going say. I kinda like it. I see where JJ and Terrio are coming from. It was obviously a difficult decision to make for them. Because they definitely wrote a version(s) where Rey was a nobody, or so claims Daisy Ridley.

Yes Palpatine is dead. And everyone in Star Wars, and fantasy, and mythology, and pulpy serial stories remains dead.........NOT! If ROTJ had been the end of the story it would be one thing. But it's not. And no, I don't believe you need several hints at his existence. With only three films, there's very little you could put in them that wouldn't let the whole cat out of the bag. For me this is more then enough of a set up, and pay off. For me. :) View attachment 1446010
View attachment 1446011


I'm not even talking about Plagueis. Anakin was created to bring balance. Palpatine was the one causing the imbalance. So Anakin was creat to counter Palpatine. It's no mistake that the moment that Palpatine begins to put into motion his master plan to take control of the galaxy, the Force serves of the Chosen One on silver platter for the Jedi. Palpatine is aware of the prophecy, and he knows he must work to undo it.

Kylo never seeks validation or approval in TROS. He's very sure of himself.

As far as your other points. The lightsaber calling to Rey, i.e. the Force is calling to Rey, is a set up and then paid off at the end of TFA, when accepts the call of the Force. I mean it's very clear that Rey has been chosen by the Force. She's had dreams of Ahch-To, and the Jedi library. And in TROS we see why, she's the other half a dyad, a Palpatine, and she's been destined to restore the balance that Anakin entially brought to the Force. Though one could way there's a second pay off when she takes on the Skywalker name, as the Force is calling to her with the Skywalker lightsaber. That's the long answer. Short answer. The Force was calling to her.

And Finn, tis true, they could have done more with his relationship with the First Order. But then again, I get why they wanted to focus on the main characters. They ended up repeating the same mistake ROTJ did. They get so focused on the main characters, your supporting characters just kinda end up existing, but not much else.
What about OT? This is about ST and it should be written better than OT.

No, you dont reverse a character’s growth trajectory half-way through a story. You dont suddenly reveal to a person near the ending that actually you are a chosen special person who is destined to affect the galaxy when you previously set up and try to build the person as a nobody trying to carve their own path. Also ironic that assuming Luke mastering internal control over his emotions after years of being a jedi master is unreasonable and but Rey coming to terms with being a nobody in the span of days or weeks is completely reasonable and a new internal conflict must be introduced to her story.

Good writing has foreshadowing so if people review the material, they can see the many subtle hints they initially missed. The sixth sense did this well since a followup viewing shows subtle hints that Willis was dead (wife never directly looks at him, willis never interacts with anyone but the boy, Willis actually doesnt interact with stuff). Its very intentional and a reason why the film still holds up even if the twist is out. I can rewatch TFA and TLJ and no hints.

Yes, Anakin was brought in to bring balance to the force and destroy the sith who unbalance it. He isnt equal to Palpatine, he is superior to him and everyone else that ever came before him. And given the fact that it is now canon that there are multiple ones thanks to Rey, who knows if there were ones before Anakin who also destroyed the Sith.

except we have never seen a force sensitive object call out, bring visions, and have past voices call out. Luke was the chosen one to bring balance after his dad failed and he received no such welcome. Neither did Annie, the one himself. But Ms. Palpatine gets this great calling and no payoff.

and to say Finn is a side character is insulting. Finn was a main character alongside Rey, at least in TFA. He was the first reveal in the trailer, his casting call was alongside Rey, TFA is focused around him until the reveal that he is the unchosen one. His story is the development of the unfavorite, a cowardly nobody with no powers and not many people even liking him, a downtrodden loser. But he shows signs of leadership and bravery by joining the mission to fly to starkiller base and confronting Kylo Ren even though he is severely unmatched, showing the beginnings of a nobody cutting his own path.

they then drop the ball in TLJ, reverting Finn’s development and making him a clueless idiot that needs to be lectured by Rose. By RoS, he is literally a side character following Poe and being snarky, not much different from C-3PO. The sad thing is Disney had everything to make Finn a good character.

In TFA, kill off Poe (who was meant to die in the crash anyway) and have Finn take his place. Have everything in TFA go the way it does but Finn still pretends to be Poe. Have Finn try to take charge and act like Pow during TLJ but he gets found out as an imposter and possibly a spy. He loses everyone’s trust but regains it by helping the resistance survive against the First Order. RoS can then end with Finn rising up to be an actual leader and commander, leading the resistance to finally beat the first order. Its basically everything Poe does but would be actual character development for Finn. Predictable but a decent character arc compared to what he got. Finn was a main character and Boyega got screwed by Star Wars’ bad writing.
 

Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.

Don't want to see this ad? Sign up for anRPF Premium Membershiptoday. Support the community. Stop the ads.

Top