Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

The dark side will always exist as long as the Force is around. So it's not defeated if it's still kicking around. The easy way out with the dark side will always be present in any given situation Luke is faced with.

It has nothing to do with defeating Palpatine or turning Vader. The dark side is still there and the option to use the easy way out is there as well. Just like addiction. Addiction can not be cured. You simply just learn why it's wrong and you constantly fight the urges and to stay away.

Something that is defeated means its no longer around to be fought against again.

I meant that in ROTJ when Luke confronted the Emperor, he confronted his own Dark Side and defeated it. I seriously doubt anything after that will challenge him to the point where he's ever going to struggle with the Dark Side. Yes you are always tempted, but nothing on the scale of two Dark Lords of the Sith trying to turn you.

 

[Psab keel]

Not to mention that the story shouldn't have even focused on Luke's struggle with the Dark Side in the first place. I thought this trilogy was supposed to be about the new characters?

How about Rey struggling with the Dark Side? What about dealing with anger or hate or temptation? What about power and the responsibility of wielding it for good? Or the dangers of using it for your own selfish purposes? These are the archetypal mythic struggles that Star Wars has always dealt with and most of it is non existent in these new films. Rey doesn't struggle with any of that. Frankly she's boring.


Instead they had to put the focus on Luke. Perhaps it's because Rey isn't as compelling as many believe she is?

Just some things to consider.

You know who is a really compelling female lead I've been really impressed with recently is Starlight from The Boys. GREAT character who struggles to live out her principles despite constantly having her morals and ideas on life directly challenged by those around her and yet she finds the inner strength to stand her ground. To me that's how you make a compelling character. So it can certainly be done in the hands of a more capable writer.

 

[ThreadSketch]

How about Rey struggling with the Dark Side? What about dealing with anger or hate or temptation? What about power and the responsibility of wielding it for good? Or the dangers of using it for your own selfish purposes? These are the archetypal mythic struggles that Star Wars has always dealt with and most of it is non existent in these new films. Rey doesn't struggle with any of that.

She certainly had plenty of fodder to fuel anger, hatred, and bitterness within herself - she was either kidnapped or abandoned at such a young age and grew up on a barren world having to toil laboriously and face starvation. Rey had every reason to be tempted by power for vengeance or selfishness and choosing to be good and selfless in spite of her past should have been a much greater conflict for her.

 

[Psab keel]

I agree. Even if she initially didn't know she had that power, could you imagine the temptation it would have yielded once she became aware of it? Plus they could have used the temptation for her to get everything she wanted by having Kylo promise to teach her so she could get revenge, or wealth or any number of things.

So much potential there that went undiscovered.

Mind you this video was originally posted on YouTube in 2013:

 

[patrickivan]

She certainly had plenty of fodder to fuel anger, hatred, and bitterness within herself - she was either kidnapped or abandoned at such a young age and grew up on a barren world having to toil laboriously and face starvation. Rey had every reason to be tempted by power for vengeance or selfishness and choosing to be good and selfless in spite of her past should have been a much greater conflict for her.

I agree that she SHOULD have had temptation, but the thing is, aside from obvious abandonment issues, there was NOTHING in TFA that suggested Rey wasn't a good person who was just living her life. There was no struggle with anything involving the force at all. She lost something so long ago, and was just living her live. Compared to Luke, who wanted to be more, and clearly had some minor angst, and the change from the Death of his Aunt and Uncle. We got to see his tragedy unfold and place him on the path he was going to take.

I loved the character traits of Rey and REALLY wanted to see her go through more and develop, but we didn't see anything deep in her. No real changes. She accepts everything all pretty simply.

I'm waiting for my parents.

Oh, I am getting messed up in some stuff that really have nothing to do with me.

Now I have powers I may or may not have realized at all.

Do I feel good, or bad? Well I'm not sharing that with you, but it sure appears that I'm not tempted by anything.

Now I'm helping people that I have no relation to as far as you all know. I'm just some person in an adventure.

Now I accept that I'm just me... Any other temptation to the dark side? Nope.

Two movies in, and Rey is just Rey with a lightsaber and can do some force stuff. And while I'm betting the next one will show as a newer more confident Rey, they're going to ignore the journey that made her that, which is what the last two movies should have been.

 

[Psab keel]

She's certainly likeable and has the kind of charisma that can carry a film which speaks to Daisy Ridley's talent as an actress. Though to me Rey is just a generic protagonist and not all that memorable because her arc is so flatly written.

 

[Ron]

Rey has the same problem that Anakin does in The Phantom Menace in that neither one makes choices that lead to the events they find themselves in but rather they're just caught up in them. With Anakin, he's not really the protagonist (which is another can of worms I know) so I can somewhat excuse it. With Rey though, she doesn't take any action unless it's forced upon her to do so. This has devastating ramifications to Star Wars lore when it comes time for her to use the force.

With Luke, he decides to join Ben and to join the rebellion. And in the pivotal moment of the film when Luke uses the force to blow up the Death Star, he takes the initiative. When Rey uses the force it's because she's backed into a corner and has no choice. This undermines the faith aspect of the force. A Jedi has to believe in the force. They have to trust in it. The power of the force comes from your faith. When Luke switches off his targeting computer, he's abandoning everything he knows as a pilot and is putting his trust into this mystical power that he barely understands. That's a huge leap of faith! It's a bold decision that builds his character and ultimately he is rewarded for it. His victory is earned. With Rey, she uses the force in the most uninspired way. She doesn't make any leap of faith or sacrifice anything in order to use it. She doesn't take the initiative. So the force works through her somewhat involuntarily, breaking the spiritual aspect of it as it relates to the user. This makes her more of an automaton that is "activated" rather than a self driven character and her victory against Kylo becomes undeserved.

Robbing a character of their agency is one of the biggest mistakes a writer can make but this is what happens when you create a story by committee in a corporate board room.

 

[patrickivan]

Rey has the same problem that Anakin does in The Phantom Menace in that neither make choices that lead to the events they find themselves in but rather they're just caught up in them. With Anakin though he's not really the protagonist (which is another can of worms I know) so I can somewhat excuse it. She doesn't take any action unless it's forced upon her to do so. This has devastating ramifications to lore when it comes time for her to use the force.

With Luke, he decides to join Ben and to join the rebellion. And in the pivotal moment of the film when Luke uses the force to blow up the Death Star, he takes the initiative. When Rey uses the force it's because she's backed into a corner and has no choice. This undermines the faith aspect of the force. A Jedi has to believe in the force. They have to trust in it. The power of the force comes from your faith in it. When Luke switches off his targeting computer, he's abandoning everything he knows as a pilot and is putting his trust into this mystical power that he barely understands. That's a huge leap of faith! It's a bold decision that builds his character and ultimately he is rewarded for it. His victory is earned. With Rey, she uses the force in the most uninspired way. She doesn't make any leap of faith or sacrifice anything in order to use it. She doesn't take the initiative. So the force works through her somewhat involuntarily, breaking the spiritual aspect of it as it relates to the user. This makes her more of an automaton that is "activated" rather than a self driven character and her victory against Kylo becomes undeserved.

Robbing a character of their agency is one of the biggest mistakes a writer can make but this is what happens when you create a story by committee in a corporate board room.

****- I hadn't even thought of that aspect of choice vs reaction taking place with our heroes. **** **** ****.

That point actually pisses me off about how they treated Rey's character. But the way you put it, far better describes the way I described her lackadaisical disposition towards everything.



Though Anakin did embrace everything. He sought power and he truly wanted it. And it was his lack of patience, compassion, and understanding that put him on the path of temptation, fear, and inevitably the dark side. The concept of how he became Vader wasn't bad. It was just poorly executed.


And now that pisses me off about what the Force was supposed to be. Well... One more movie to correct the last 5?

 

[BTTUK]

Rey has the same problem that Anakin does in The Phantom Menace in that neither one makes choices that lead to the events they find themselves in but rather they're just caught up in them. With Anakin, he's not really the protagonist (which is another can of worms I know) so I can somewhat excuse it. With Rey though, she doesn't take any action unless it's forced upon her to do so. This has devastating ramifications to Star Wars lore when it comes time for her to use the force.

With Luke, he decides to join Ben and to join the rebellion. And in the pivotal moment of the film when Luke uses the force to blow up the Death Star, he takes the initiative. When Rey uses the force it's because she's backed into a corner and has no choice. This undermines the faith aspect of the force. A Jedi has to believe in the force. They have to trust in it. The power of the force comes from your faith. When Luke switches off his targeting computer, he's abandoning everything he knows as a pilot and is putting his trust into this mystical power that he barely understands. That's a huge leap of faith! It's a bold decision that builds his character and ultimately he is rewarded for it. His victory is earned. With Rey, she uses the force in the most uninspired way. She doesn't make any leap of faith or sacrifice anything in order to use it. She doesn't take the initiative. So the force works through her somewhat involuntarily, breaking the spiritual aspect of it as it relates to the user. This makes her more of an automaton that is "activated" rather than a self driven character and her victory against Kylo becomes undeserved.

Robbing a character of their agency is one of the biggest mistakes a writer can make but this is what happens when you create a story by committee in a corporate board room.

To be fair, Luke only chose to help Ben after his aunt and uncle were murdered. He was all set to let Ben go on his merry way up to that point

 

[The Terminator]

....what ever happened to the live action tv show they had planned, and written scripts for. Disney killed that too?

 

[Psab keel]

It's because Luke refused the call to adventure with Ben's offer to help Leia and he even acknowledges that there is nothing left for him there after his aunt and uncle are murdered. He has no reason to stay.

Rey waiting for her parents on Jakku is the entire crux of her conflict in TFA and ultimately it leads nowhere because she leaves the planet regardless, in effect making her entire conflict meaningless. She has already answered the call to adventure by leaving behind the only world she knows. She can't "uncross" the threshold into the adventure.

Rey also does not have a guide character that ushers her across that threshold. Obi-Wan guides Luke off the planet with Han and Co. to the adventure. Each character and scenario builds upon the previous one by adding characters and situations that escalate the dramatic tension so that the inevitable outcome results in the story rather than the other way around.

Rey "guides" herself the whole movie which is not as compelling to watch because it robs her of any conflict in struggling to accept the call to adventure, cross the threshold, face trials, face failure and in effect making her efforts hollow because they literally are effortless. The will of the Force argument also doesn't make for a compelling defense because it only proves what I've said all along in that it's a metaphorical energy influencing things but it's characters that are needed to express that idea through the action in the story and it can't be done through a single character because then we aren't learning anything. Think about it. Even people who are self taught have to learn by watching others. No one person is capable of doing everything at an exceptional level right out of the gate. Even if they witness others doing the same thing they often try to mimic them and practice so as to teach themselves. Often they fail along the way as they progress, getting better as they go. Even prodigies typically only excel at one skill and often to the detriment of others.


At no point did Rey ever show any example of this. She can accomplish her goals without the aid of anyone else. Maz can't be her guide either because she doesn't even show up until halfway through the story after Rey has crossed the threshold and subsequently is only with her for a few minutes imparting some vague cursory knowledge of the Force before Rey runs off from the castle.

Contrast this with Obi-Wan who accompanies Luke on the journey and imparts wisdom and a new perspective for Luke to consider along the way. Luke may have taken the final shot to blow up the Death Star but he wouldn't have gotten to that point on his own efforts. In fact if Han hadn't shown up at the critical moment Luke would have been blown out of the sky by Vader so his life was spared only because his friend rescued him.

 

[Joek3rr]

Not to mention that the story shouldn't have even focused on Luke's struggle with the Dark Side in the first place. I thought this trilogy was supposed to be about the new characters?

How about Rey struggling with the Dark Side? What about dealing with anger or hate or temptation? What about power and the responsibility of wielding it for good? Or the dangers of using it for your own selfish purposes? These are the archetypal mythic struggles that Star Wars has always dealt with and most of it is non existent in these new films. Rey doesn't struggle with any of that. Frankly she's boring.


Instead they had to put the focus on Luke. Perhaps it's because Rey isn't as compelling as many believe she is?

Just some things to consider.

You know who is a really compelling female lead I've been really impressed with recently is Starlight from The Boys. GREAT character who struggles to live out her principles despite constantly having her morals and ideas on life directly challenged by those around her and yet she finds the inner strength to stand her ground. To me that's how you make a compelling character. So it can certainly be done in the hands of a more capable writer.

But we do see Rey have some struggles with the Dark Side.

"There's something else beneath the island. A place. A dark place."
"Balance. Powerful light, powerful darkness."
"It's cold. It's calling me."
"Resist it, Rey. Rey? Rey!......You went straight to the dark."
"That place was trying to show me something."
"It offered you something you needed. And you didn't even try to stop yourself."

But of course she isn't going to have it as bad as Anakin or Luke since she's the embodiment of the Light. It's kinda cool, she's Light being pulled towards the Dark. And Ben is Dark being pulled towards the Light.

And anyways, do we really need to see someone really struggle with the Dark Side like that, again? We've gotten that story twice now, from our heroes.

It's because Luke refused the call to adventure with Ben's offer to help Leia and he even acknowledges that there is nothing left for him there after his aunt and uncle are murdered. He has no reason to stay.

Rey waiting for her parents on Jakku is the entire crux of her conflict in TFA and ultimately it leads nowhere because she leaves the planet regardless, in effect making her entire conflict meaningless. She has already answered the call to adventure by leaving behind the only world she knows. She can't "uncross" the threshold into the adventure.

Rey also does not have a guide character that ushers her across that threshold. Obi-Wan guides Luke off the planet with Han and Co. to the adventure. Each character and scenario builds upon the previous one by adding characters and situations that escalate the dramatic tension so that the inevitable outcome results in the story rather than the other way around.

Rey "guides" herself the whole movie which is not as compelling to watch because it robs her of any conflict in struggling to accept the call to adventure, cross the threshold, face trials, face failure and in effect making her efforts hollow because they literally are effortless. The will of the Force argument also doesn't make for a compelling defense because it only proves what I've said all along in that it's a metaphorical energy influencing things but it's characters that are needed to express that idea through the action in the story and it can't be done through a single character because then we aren't learning anything. Think about it. Even people who are self taught have to learn by watching others. No one person is capable of doing everything at an exceptional level right out of the gate. Even if they witness others doing the same thing they often try to mimic them and practice so as to teach themselves. Often they fail along the way as they progress, getting better as they go. Even prodigies typically only excel at one skill and often to the detriment of others.


At no point did Rey ever show any example of this. She can accomplish her goals without the aid of anyone else. Maz can't be her guide either because she doesn't even show up until halfway through the story after Rey has crossed the threshold and subsequently is only with her for a few minutes imparting some vague cursory knowledge of the Force before Rey runs off from the castle.

Contrast this with Obi-Wan who accompanies Luke on the journey and imparts wisdom and a new perspective for Luke to consider along the way. Luke may have taken the final shot to blow up the Death Star but he wouldn't have gotten to that point on his own efforts. In fact if Han hadn't shown up at the critical moment Luke would have been blown out of the sky by Vader so his life was spared only because his friend rescued him.

I disagree. Rey really doesn't cross the first threshold until she let's the Force in, and accepts the lightsaber. She may have left Jakku, physically, but not mentally. Just like Luke is willing to help out Obi-Wan by taking him to Anchorhead. Rey is just giving Finn, BB-8, Han, and Chewie some help then she plans to head straight home.

"I'll drop you two at Ponemah Terminal. I need the bonding tape, hurry!"
"What about you?"
"I gotta get back to Jakku!"
"BACK TO JAK--?! Why does everyone always wanna go back to Jakku?!!" "No, that one! No. No. The one I'm pointing to! No. NO. NO. If we don't patch it up, the propulsion tank will overflow and flood the ship with poisonous gas!"
"This?"
"Yes!"
"Hey. Rey. You're a pilot -- you can fly anywhere! Why go back?! You got a family? You got a boyfriend? Cute boyfriend?"
"None of your business, THAT'S WHY."


"Rey. I've been thinkin' about bringing on some more crew, Rey. A second mate. Someone to help out. Someone who can keep up with Chewie and me, appreciates the Falcon."
"Are you offering me a job?"
"I wouldn't be nice to you. It doesn't pay much."
"You're offering me a job."
"I'm thinking about it."
"Well?"
"If you were, I'd be flattered. But I have to get home."
"Jakku?"
"I've already been away too long."


"What was that? I shouldn't have gone in there."
"That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him and now, it calls to you!"
"I have to get back to Jakku."
"Han told me. Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But... there's someone who still could."
"Luke."
"The belonging you seek is not behind you. It is ahead. I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you. The saber. Take it."
"I'm never touching that again. I don't want any part of this."

 

[Psab keel]

Climbing into a dark hole isn't much of a conflict. I'd much rather watch a character struggle with actual temptation or at the least struggle to hold true to their convictions. If Rey has no darkness within her or no potential for evil then what is she struggling with? Star Wars entire story has always been centered on that.

Crossing the threshold is literal in a film. It's a visual medium, you have to show it. So while Rey allowing the Force in metaphorically works, it's not the same thing I'm addressing. Luke and Rey leaving their home planet(s) is crossing the threshold. Metaphorically I get what you're saying but in terms of the plot we're talking about different things.

In all of your examples you cite times where Rey is helping others. She never needs help. Ever. Which is my entire point.

How often does Luke receive aid from his friends vs how often does Rey need aid from her friends? Because if Rey can accomplish her goals without anyone else then why bother having any characters accompany her on the journey at all?

She is self reliant to the point where she's boring. Her interactions with others are almost cursory in many cases.

 

[Joek3rr]

Climbing into a dark hole isn't much of a conflict. I'd much rather watch a character struggle with actual temptation or at the least struggle to hold true to their convictions. Crossing the threshold is literal in a film. It's a visual medium, you have to show it. So while Rey allowing the Force in metaphorically works, it's not the same thing I'm addressing.

In all of your examples you cite times where Rey is helping others. She never needs help. Ever. Which is my entire point.

How often does Luke receive aid from his friends vs how often does Rey need aid from her friends? Because if Rey can accomplish her goals without anyone else then why bother having any characters accompany her on the journey at all?

She is self reliant to the point where she's boring.

And that's not supposed to be that much of a conflict. That's just not Rey's story. And like I said, I like that. I don't need to see all that for the 3rd time. As I said Rey is Light with a pull towards the Dark. And Ben is Dark with a pull towards the Light.

And you don't need a literal threshold. Luke makes his decision standing in front of his home, looking at his aunt and uncle's corpses.

Anakin in front of the slave hovels.

Rey on Starkiller, accepting the call from the Force

Neither choice is accompanied by a literal threshold, that the hero crosses.

In all my examples Rey is helping others? Um no she isn't. In the first one she is. But in the second, Han is offering her job, and the third Maz is giving her advice.

Sure she does alot of things herself. But so does Luke. He takes Obi-Wan and group Mos Eisley. He sells his speeder providing money to pay Han with. He instigates the rescue of the princess. It's his quick thinking that saves them from garbage smasher. He keeps the princess safe, while Han chases stormtroopers. He figured out how to get across the chasm. He mans one of the Falcons guns to fight of the TIEs. And he joins the Rebels in the attack of the Death Star. Luke gives and receives help. And so does Rey. Finn shoots down the TIEs, helping Rey, and allowing them to escape. And not get shot down. Han takes her to Maz's castle. Which allows her to have her vision and come in contact with the lightsaber. And Maz gives her advice about the Force, and what she should do with her life. Heck, even Ben helps her,(unknowingly) as when he invades her mind, she fights back, and that's when she realizes she can use the thing called the Force.

 

[Psab keel]

If that works for you that's great. It just doesn't interest me without a substantial conflict.

Think about how often Luke has been rescued in the original film.

1. In the canyon when Ben kenobi saves him from the tusken raiders.
2. In the cantina when he is assaulted by walrus man, Ben steps in.
3. In the detention center Leia clears a way for them to escape by blasting a hole in the trash compactor
4. Leia pulls Luke back to keep him from falling into the chasm
5. Ben sacrifices himself so they can escape the death star.
6. Wedge blows up the tie fighter on Luke's back during the final battle
7. Han gets Vader out of the way so that Luke can make the victorious shot and blow up the death star.

Time and again the characters in this film rescue one another. When does anyone ever save Rey in TFA? She always does it all on her own efforts

 

[patrickivan]

If that works for you that's great. It just doesn't interest me without a substantial conflict.

Think about how often Luke has been rescued in the original film.

1. In the canyon when Ben kenobi saves him from the tusken raiders.
2. In the cantina when he is assaulted by walrus man, Ben steps in.
3. In the detention center Leia clears a way for them to escape by blasting a hole in the trash compactor
4. Leia pulls Luke back to keep him from falling into the chasm
5. Ben sacrifices himself so they can escape the death star.
6. Wedge blows up the tie fighter on Luke's back during the final battle
7. Han gets Vader out of the way so that Luke can make the victorious shot and blow up the death star.

Time and again the characters in this film rescue one another. When does anyone ever save Rey in TFA? She always does it all on her own efforts

Good point. She's perfectly capable from the get-go without anything at all. Makes for a *yaaaawwwwwwn* great struggle for our hero.

 

[BTTUK]

My point was that Luke only chose to join Ben when he felt like there was no other option now his family were dead etc, which to me doesn't seem like much of a choice to me....

 

[Halliwax]

A lot of paragraphs in here

 

[Ron]

My point was that Luke only chose to join Ben when he felt like there was no other option now his family were dead etc, which to me doesn't seem like much of a choice to me....

True. His family dying was certainly the catalyst for him to join Ben. I would argue though, it was necessary to Luke's arc. Prior to meeting Ben, Luke's one dream was to leave Tatooine and join the academy but he felt obligated to stay and help his uncle. That obligation was the same reason he felt he couldn't join Ben even though you could see his heart desired it. I like that about Luke. He's unselfishly putting his dreams of adventure aside for the sake of his aunt and uncle. And after his aunt and uncle were murdered and he had no reason to stay, he still could've followed his own ambitions to join the academy but instead chose to go with Ben because now he had a score to settle with the Empire. His inner struggle was his desire for adventure vs his commitment to Owen and Beru. With them now gone it freed Luke to answer the "call to arms" that Psab keel mentioned. If he had just joined Ben from the start, it would've been a selfish thing to do despite it being to take part in a heroic rescue mission.

Man I love analyzing this stuff

 

[ThreadSketch]

A lot of paragraphs in here

"There's an awful lot of moisture in here..." *squish*