Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Halliwax]

"There's an awful lot of moisture in here..." *squish*

 

[BTTUK]

True. His family dying was certainly the catalyst for him to join Ben. I would argue though, it was necessary to Luke's arc. Prior to meeting Ben, Luke's one dream was to leave Tatooine and join the academy but he felt obligated to stay and help his uncle. That obligation was the same reason he felt he couldn't join Ben even though you could see his heart desired it. I like that about Luke. He's unselfishly putting his dreams of adventure aside for the sake of his aunt and uncle. And after his aunt and uncle were murdered and he had no reason to stay, he still could've followed his own ambitions to join the academy but instead chose to go with Ben because now he had a score to settle with the Empire. His inner struggle was his desire for adventure vs his commitment to Owen and Beru. With them now gone it freed Luke to answer the "call to arms" that Psab keel mentioned. If he had just joined Ben from the start, it would've been a selfish thing to do despite it being to take part in a heroic rescue mission.

Man I love analyzing this stuff

Yeah you are right it may have been selfish short term, however as Yoda told him, Luke couldn't see the bigger picture. Han made a selfish choice to help find Leia and ended up a war hero .

I like thinking about all of it too. I have a problem with Yoda and Obi-wan's plan though when I think about it, and how it ties in with choice.

 

[Ron]

Yeah you are right it may have been selfish short term, however as Yoda told him, Luke couldn't see the bigger picture. Han made a selfish choice to help find Leia and ended up a war hero .

I like thinking about all of it too. I have a problem with Yoda and Obi-wan's plan though when I think about it, and how it ties in with choice.

Hmmm interested to now why you think that.

 

[Joek3rr]

If that works for you that's great. It just doesn't interest me without a substantial conflict.

Think about how often Luke has been rescued in the original film.

1. In the canyon when Ben kenobi saves him from the tusken raiders.
2. In the cantina when he is assaulted by walrus man, Ben steps in.
3. In the detention center Leia clears a way for them to escape by blasting a hole in the trash compactor
4. Leia pulls Luke back to keep him from falling into the chasm
5. Ben sacrifices himself so they can escape the death star.
6. Wedge blows up the tie fighter on Luke's back during the final battle
7. Han gets Vader out of the way so that Luke can make the victorious shot and blow up the death star.

Time and again the characters in this film rescue one another. When does anyone ever save Rey in TFA? She always does it all on her own efforts

But wouldn't it be a little weird it for Rey couldn't take care of herself? I mean TFA sets from the very outside that she's mechanically inclined, and she can fight. To have a character that grew up on her own on a backwater world, that couldn't take of herself, doesn't make much sense.

Luke on the other hand, is farm boy who is somewhat mechanically inclined. But probably doesn't get in a fight for survival on regular basis.

If you were to pit those two, head to head in some sort of a competition. Say it had three categories, fighting, building a ship, raising crops. If it was fighting, Rey would win, if it was building your own ship, Rey would win, if it was grow crops in the desert, Luke would win.

So in order to have Rey be a little more helpless, then you need to completely change her upbringing and backstory. She would had to have a life where she was taken care of. Totally changes everything.

 

[Joek3rr]

I have some good news, and some bad news for everyone.

Bad news first? Okay hope your sitting down.
Rian Johnson is still working on his trilogy.

And the good news. Rian Johnson is still working on his trilogy!!!!

 

[Psab keel]

But wouldn't it be a little weird it for Rey couldn't take care of herself? I mean TFA sets from the very outside that she's mechanically inclined, and she can fight. To have a character that grew up on her own on a backwater world, that couldn't take of herself, doesn't make much sense.

Luke on the other hand, is farm boy who is somewhat mechanically inclined. But probably doesn't get in a fight for survival on regular basis.

If you were to pit those two, head to head in some sort of a competition. Say it had three categories, fighting, building a ship, raising crops. If it was fighting, Rey would win, if it was building your own ship, Rey would win, if it was grow crops in the desert, Luke would win.

So in order to have Rey be a little more helpless, then you need to completely change her upbringing and backstory. She would had to have a life where she was taken care of. Totally changes everything.

Well they certainly have different upbringings and I agree that having Rey being self reliant makes sense for the way she was established. Luke is not entirely helpless either though, I was just citing those examples as a means to illustrate that while he is capable of defending himself and others (and he does so throughout the movie) it also feels like a natural progression as his confidence builds and he gets further and further pulled into fighting for the Rebellion. Though having him rely on his friends often having them rescue him even though he is the main protagonist, makes him feel more relatable.

I question whether Rey should have been an orphan and having her character established the way she was. Having a character be self reliant is fine but she often exhibits no weakness and very little (if any) conflict internally and when faced with external conflict she always succeeds in coming out the victor. I get that she is the protagonist and should win in the end, but is it really necessary for her to always succeed? To always be right in her thinking? She never even gets injured in a fight. Not even a scratch.

One of the reasons why I love Luke so much as a character is that throughout the three films we see him grow from a naive farmboy, into an unwitting soldier for the rebel cause and eventually a Jedi Knight who defeats Darth Vader. Along the way we see him tested and often he fails, proving that like the rest of us, he's human and makes mistakes. No one I know in real life is perfect and having Rey seem so comes across as contrived.

I find Rey hard to relate to because even though she's had a lonely upbringing and I empathize in some degree with her in that regard, it's also part of my lack of empathy for her. What I mean by that is she is a loner. Not relying on anyone but herself to survive in the desert wastes. That's all fine and good, but to me it would lend itself more to a character who is naturally slow to trust others, being wary of every stranger's motives and willing to fight for every scrap she can because she literally has nothing. To me it feels like a disconnect when it would make more logical sense for her to be cynical and her emotional arc would be to learn that trusting and relying on others doesn't betray her strength. Much like Leia having to rely on Han and Luke when she'd been fighting the Empire her whole life, Leia eventually learns she can count on others to fight along side her.

 

[Joek3rr]

Well they certainly have different upbringings and I agree that having Rey being self reliant makes sense for the way she was established. Luke is not entirely helpless either though, I was just citing those examples as a means to illustrate that while he is capable of defending himself and others (and he does so throughout the movie) it also feels like a natural progression as his confidence builds and he gets further and further pulled into fighting for the Rebellion. Though having him rely on his friends often having them rescue him even though he is the main protagonist, makes him feel more relatable.

I question whether Rey should have been an orphan and having her character established the way she was. Having a character be self reliant is fine but she often exhibits no weakness and very little (if any) conflict internally and when faced with external conflict she always succeeds in coming out the victor. I get that she is the protagonist and should win in the end, but is it really necessary for her to always succeed? To always be right in her thinking? She never even gets injured in a fight. Not even a scratch.

One of the reasons why I love Luke so much as a character is that throughout the three films we see him grow from a naive farmboy, into an unwitting soldier for the rebel cause and eventually a Jedi Knight who defeats Darth Vader. Along the way we see him tested and often he fails, proving that like the rest of us, he's human and makes mistakes. No one I know in real life is perfect and having Rey seem so comes across as contrived.

I find Rey hard to relate to because even though she's had a lonely upbringing and I empathize in some degree with her in that regard, it's also part of my lack of empathy for her. What I mean by that is she is a loner. Not relying on anyone but herself to survive in the desert wastes. That's all fine and good, but to me it would lend itself more to a character who is naturally slow to trust others, being wary of every stranger's motives and willing to fight for every scrap she can because she literally has nothing. To me it feels like a disconnect when it would make more logical sense for her to be cynical and her emotional arc would be to learn that trusting and relying on others doesn't betray her strength. Much like Leia having to rely on Han and Luke when she'd been fighting the Empire her whole life, Leia eventually learns she can count on others to fight along side her.

I don't man, she did let all the Rathtars out on accident lol which leads Han to losing his big ship. Dang that must have been an expensive loss.

 

[Psab keel]

She may have let them out accidentally but it also saved Han and Chewie from being outnumbered so that was convenient. Plus Han only had that larger freighter because the Falcon was stolen from him so I doubt he cared much. It's just as vexing as having Anakin trying to shoot up the battle droids in the trade federation hanger and "accidentally" blow up the whole ship which turns the tide of the battle in the heroes favor. Plus having a ten year old involved in a battle like that was stupid from the outset.

There are a lot of coincidences in Star Wars which we as an audience chalk up to the Force influencing events, but at least the original films typically masked it really well so that it didn't feel so contrived.

 

[BTTUK]

Hmmm interested to now why you think that.

Mainly that Yoda and Obi-wan decided to use the children of a powerful force user, because they would be potentially more powerful than them, to kill their parent.

If the force showed them that this was the way to destroy the Sith, then did Luke really have a choice in whether he could be a pilot at the academy or would Ben have stopped him to train him eventually? Did he really ever the choice to be anything other than the weapon of Yoda and Obi-wan against the Sith?

 

[Joek3rr]

She may have let them out accidentally but it also saved Han and Chewie from being outnumbered so that was convenient. Plus Han only had that larger freighter because the Falcon was stolen from him so I doubt he cared much. It's just as vexing as having Anakin trying to shoot up the battle droids in the trade federation hanger and "accidentally" blow up the whole ship which turns the tide of the battle in the heroes favor. Plus having a ten year old involved in a battle like that was stupid from the outset.

There are a lot of coincidences in Star Wars which we as an audience chalk up to the Force influencing events, but at least the original films typically masked it really well so that it didn't feel so contrived.

So how do you feel about Rey in TLJ? I mean that movie goes out of it's way to have nearly everyone fail on some level.

In Rey's case. She starts the film with two goals. 1) get Luke to come back and help the Resistance 2) learn more about the Force and the Jedi. With her first goal she does not not succeed. Yes she helps nudge Luke towards helping, but in the end it's ultimately Yoda. And her second goal, she only partially succeeds at. She gets some learning about the Force, but not the Jedi, other then Luke thinks they need to end.

Then in the last portion of the film she has a new goal. Which is to get Ben to return to the Light. Which she totally fails at, royally. Leaving Ben, I'd argue, deeper in the Dark Side then before.

 

[Joek3rr]

Mainly that Yoda and Obi-wan decided to use the children of a powerful force user, because they would be potentially more powerful than them, to kill their parent.

If the force showed them that this was the way to destroy the Sith, then did Luke really have a choice in whether he could be a pilot at the academy or would Ben have stopped him to train him eventually? Did he really ever the choice to be anything other than the weapon of Yoda and Obi-wan against the Sith?

Does Yoda want Luke to kill Vader? Obi-Wan maybe. But Yoda doesn't really ever say.

 

[BTTUK]

Does Yoda want Luke to kill Vader? Obi-Wan maybe. But Yoda doesn't really ever say.

Yes he wants Vader to be destroyed. Whether that means physically or how it ended up with Anakin's redemption, it's the se result. Either way they used Luke for his power to do something Obi-wan (and Yoda) failed to do, which was destroy the Sith.

 

[Psab keel]

I'm not sure if the Force showed them that. My thinking was always that Ben hoped that through Luke he would also have a shot at redemption by trying to make up for his failure with Anakin.

If Ben was intent on making Luke a weapon then he would have raised the boy himself and taught him the ways of the Force from birth, not wanting to risk Luke gaining any attachments to others which had been at the core of the fear of training Anakin too old. In that scenario Obi-Wan would be minimizing that risk.

By bringing Luke to Owen and Beru and allowing him to be raised in a loving family it proves to me that Ben was trying to do what was best for the boy rather than selfishly trying to get Luke to join him. Perhaps this too was why the truth of Luke's parentage was hidden from him. So that Luke wouldn't have to feel responsible for trying to stop Vader and had the opportunity to live a normal life. It was a big risk Ben was willing to take because at any point Luke could have refused to go with him to Alderaan. Not to mention trying to keep Luke safe from Vader and the Emperor by having him raised out in the midde of nowhere.

I think Ben Kenobi and Yoda have been painted in a bad light in recent years and I find it sad really because I think like any of the other characters they were flawed and simply trying to do the right thing and that wasn't always what was best. It doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them flawed.

 

[Psab keel]

So how do you feel about Rey in TLJ? I mean that movie goes out of it's way to have nearly everyone fail on some level.

In Rey's case. She starts the film with two goals. 1) get Luke to come back and help the Resistance 2) learn more about the Force and the Jedi. With her first goal she does not not succeed. Yes she helps nudge Luke towards helping, but in the end it's ultimately Yoda. And her second goal, she only partially succeeds at. She gets some learning about the Force, but not the Jedi, other then Luke thinks they need to end.

Then in the last portion of the film she has a new goal. Which is to get Ben to return to the Light. Which she totally fails at, royally. Leaving Ben, I'd argue, deeper in the Dark Side then before.

That whole movie just treads water. Nothing is really accomplished and the characters end up worse off than they were before the movie started. While I understand that they were trying to mimic the down and out tone of The Empire Strikes Back, I think it failed on that level too. Narratively speaking the story isn't really progressed any further. The characters haven't really experienced much growth.

 

[Joek3rr]

That whole movie just treads water. Nothing is really accomplished and the characters end up worse off than they were before the movie started. While I understand that they were trying to mimic the down and out tone of The Empire Strikes Back, I think it failed on that level too. Narratively speaking the story isn't really progressed any further. The characters haven't really experienced much growth.

I disagree, but I'm not going to go into that now.

You said earlier that Rey succeeds at everything. But that's clearly not true.

 

[Joek3rr]

I'm not sure if the Force showed them that. My thinking was always that Ben hoped that through Luke he would also have a shot at redemption by trying to make up for his failure with Anakin.

If Ben was intent on making Luke a weapon then he would have raised the boy himself and taught him the ways of the Force from birth, not wanting to risk Luke gaining any attachments to others which had been at the core of the fear of training Anakin too old. In that scenario Obi-Wan would be minimizing that risk.

By bringing Luke to Owen and Beru and allowing him to be raised in a loving family it proves to me that Ben was trying to do what was best for the boy rather than selfishly trying to get Luke to join him. Perhaps this too was why the truth of Luke's parentage was hidden from him. So that Luke wouldn't have to feel responsible for trying to stop Vader and had the opportunity to live a normal life. It was a big risk Ben was willing to take because at any point Luke could have refused to go with him to Alderaan. Not to mention trying to keep Luke safe from Vader and the Emperor by having him raised out in the midde of nowhere.

I think Ben Kenobi and Yoda have been painted in a bad light in recent years and I find it sad really because I think like any of the other characters they were flawed and simply trying to do the right thing and that wasn't always what was best. It doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them flawed.

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[Psab keel]

I'm more referring to her perfection in TFA. In TLJ I feel her failures also feel unearned.

Like the eternal struggle between light and dark our disagreement is eternal.

 

[BTTUK]

I'm not sure if the Force showed them that. My thinking was always that Ben hoped that through Luke he would also have a shot at redemption by trying to make up for his failure with Anakin.

If Ben was intent on making Luke a weapon then he would have raised the boy himself and taught him the ways of the Force from birth, not wanting to risk Luke gaining any attachments to others which had been at the core of the fear of training Anakin too old. In that scenario Obi-Wan would be minimizing that risk.

By bringing Luke to Owen and Beru and allowing him to be raised in a loving family it proves to me that Ben was trying to do what was best for the boy rather than selfishly trying to get Luke to join him. Perhaps this too was why the truth of Luke's parentage was hidden from him. So that Luke wouldn't have to feel responsible for trying to stop Vader and had the opportunity to live a normal life. It was a big risk Ben was willing to take because at any point Luke could have refused to go with him to Alderaan. Not to mention trying to keep Luke safe from Vader and the Emperor by having him raised out in the midde of nowhere.

I think Ben Kenobi and Yoda have been painted in a bad light in recent years and I find it sad really because I think like any of the other characters they were flawed and simply trying to do the right thing and that wasn't always what was best. It doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them flawed.

I'm not suggesting they did it badly or in a cruel way. Simply that their plan rested on getting one of Anakin's powerful children to do what they could not. Which doesn't strike me as wholly allowing Luke the chance to decide himself.

It's all a moot point. The script ultimately says Luke joined, redeemed Anakin and beat the Empire.

 

[Psab keel]

Ok, I normally don't like fan films, but that was hysterical! The delivery and timing was perfect!!! Thank you for posting that.

 

[Joek3rr]

I'm more referring to her perfection in TFA. In TLJ I feel her failures also feel unearned.

Like the eternal struggle between light and dark our disagreement is eternal.

You have to earn failures? Huh. I gotta chew on that one for a bit......

Lol. Since my name is really Luke, I guess I gotta go exile myself on an island, so I can break the cycle!