The Nine Gates - NEW PHOTOS (page 12)
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Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
Sounds like you found your dream job. Envy you even more! :cheers
Flattery
Well-Known Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
Does anyone have any photos of the run that was produced in collaboration with the original binder? I'd like to study it further in case I produce a much more screen-accurate version. Specifically I'm wanting to see the interior hinge and endpapers, the endbands (they appear to be white silk or linen). Or if someone could put me in contact with the original binder, that would be great, too. I'll need that anyway because if I do make a more exact copy I don't want to infringe on her design without permission.
Thanks!
Does anyone have any photos of the run that was produced in collaboration with the original binder? I'd like to study it further in case I produce a much more screen-accurate version. Specifically I'm wanting to see the interior hinge and endpapers, the endbands (they appear to be white silk or linen). Or if someone could put me in contact with the original binder, that would be great, too. I'll need that anyway because if I do make a more exact copy I don't want to infringe on her design without permission.
Thanks!
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
Your copy is beautiful so don't take this as anything but help on your next gate.
The dvd extras i have actually have Roman polanski the director talking about how and who made the Hero book for the film. It cost them a fortune . It was not made the way you think by a prop dept or with basic paper or bindings . He sought out one of the world most renown book makers . It took months to get that book the way you see it. I will watch it again today its been a while and write down what he says so you know who and how it was constructed . I was very impressed by the lengths he went to.
Your copy is beautiful so don't take this as anything but help on your next gate.
The dvd extras i have actually have Roman polanski the director talking about how and who made the Hero book for the film. It cost them a fortune . It was not made the way you think by a prop dept or with basic paper or bindings . He sought out one of the world most renown book makers . It took months to get that book the way you see it. I will watch it again today its been a while and write down what he says so you know who and how it was constructed . I was very impressed by the lengths he went to.
Flattery
Well-Known Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
@Planet:
Thanks for elaborating. I'm sure the planning of the book took months, but the only books I know of that would take months to actually bind are medieval and renaissance wooden board bindings.
I understand your point. However, I must remind you that I do this for a living, and my mentor is a world-renowned binder. He has his own permanent 15 foot case in the Gutenberg museum. Early next year we will be collaborating full time on producing Gutenberg replicas each containing $48,000 worth of vellum and binding them in 15th C. style. I'm quite familiar with bookbinding and I take it very seriously. I love the movie, I love the book, but I am able to tell what it is and how it was made.
The film crew and those involved in the prop's conceptualization undoubtedly went to great lengths to have the books made and sought out someone who could do it. That's without question. However, the hero prop was bound in modern aniline dyed hair-sheep skin (based on my observations, and if my conclusion is off, it's not off by far) and it was a case binding, which didn't come about until ca. 1830. The true quality of the book is the paper and printing, which appears to be laid paper and is an excellent and expensive choice.
There's a point in the film where Corso is examining Kessler's book. He lays it on the spine, feels the foredge of the paper with his finger, then spots the insert and lays the book down and opens it. When he does, you can see that the spine leather moves away from the textblock. That is a case binding by design, and I can prove it.
If you go back through this thread, a photo was posted of screen-used book props. See how the text block is detached from the covers, and there's no linen or hemp cord (i.e. the raised bands) whatsoever? They're glued-in strips as part of the cover case. Again, that practice was not done until the 19th C., so the authenticity of the binding itself is immediately debunked.
Another way you can tell is that there's no fine wrinkling of the leather on the spine. The only bindings that do that are case bindings. Tightbacks over time get fine wrinkles because the leather is adhered directly to the sections. It has nowhere to go but contract upon itself when the book opens.
This is NOT to say a poor job was done. I'm not saying that at all. It just wasn't a true 17th C. book in its construction, and the studio got exactly what they ordered, and I'm sure it was expensive in total cost (the printing, the paper, etc.), but case binding was invented precisely for its reduced labor cost and because books could more easily be mass-produced with mechanized stamped covers.
Now, this isn't a contest. I just love the book so much I wanted to give it a proper binding reflective of its time period.
I'm curious as to what facts you can post based on the DVD extras. Thank you again for chiming in.
@Planet:
Thanks for elaborating. I'm sure the planning of the book took months, but the only books I know of that would take months to actually bind are medieval and renaissance wooden board bindings.
I understand your point. However, I must remind you that I do this for a living, and my mentor is a world-renowned binder. He has his own permanent 15 foot case in the Gutenberg museum. Early next year we will be collaborating full time on producing Gutenberg replicas each containing $48,000 worth of vellum and binding them in 15th C. style. I'm quite familiar with bookbinding and I take it very seriously. I love the movie, I love the book, but I am able to tell what it is and how it was made.
The film crew and those involved in the prop's conceptualization undoubtedly went to great lengths to have the books made and sought out someone who could do it. That's without question. However, the hero prop was bound in modern aniline dyed hair-sheep skin (based on my observations, and if my conclusion is off, it's not off by far) and it was a case binding, which didn't come about until ca. 1830. The true quality of the book is the paper and printing, which appears to be laid paper and is an excellent and expensive choice.
There's a point in the film where Corso is examining Kessler's book. He lays it on the spine, feels the foredge of the paper with his finger, then spots the insert and lays the book down and opens it. When he does, you can see that the spine leather moves away from the textblock. That is a case binding by design, and I can prove it.
If you go back through this thread, a photo was posted of screen-used book props. See how the text block is detached from the covers, and there's no linen or hemp cord (i.e. the raised bands) whatsoever? They're glued-in strips as part of the cover case. Again, that practice was not done until the 19th C., so the authenticity of the binding itself is immediately debunked.
Another way you can tell is that there's no fine wrinkling of the leather on the spine. The only bindings that do that are case bindings. Tightbacks over time get fine wrinkles because the leather is adhered directly to the sections. It has nowhere to go but contract upon itself when the book opens.
This is NOT to say a poor job was done. I'm not saying that at all. It just wasn't a true 17th C. book in its construction, and the studio got exactly what they ordered, and I'm sure it was expensive in total cost (the printing, the paper, etc.), but case binding was invented precisely for its reduced labor cost and because books could more easily be mass-produced with mechanized stamped covers.
Now, this isn't a contest. I just love the book so much I wanted to give it a proper binding reflective of its time period.
I'm curious as to what facts you can post based on the DVD extras. Thank you again for chiming in.
Flattery
Well-Known Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
Incidentally, I have uploaded a video of the book here: Prop replica, The Ninth Gate - YouTube
Not very high quality, as I shot it with my phone, but there it is nonetheless.
Cheers!
Incidentally, I have uploaded a video of the book here: Prop replica, The Ninth Gate - YouTube
Not very high quality, as I shot it with my phone, but there it is nonetheless.
Cheers!
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
I will for sure . But the book you have seen is NOT the Hero book on yourprops f . They did make more then one book for the film. So you know ALL of the books in the film like the Don Quixote spanish edition were authentic not repos
Polanski said its very hard to tell is not a 17 century even when holding the book and inspecting it . They did a super close up of the texture of the pages. You do realize that there are people who can replicate paper so precise that it takes experts to tell its not real, And thats in hand . So when you say you can tell by watching A Dvd its not possible. You know its fake because its a movie is what I am getting at. The books binding is different . The covers were not all black .
I will for sure . But the book you have seen is NOT the Hero book on yourprops f . They did make more then one book for the film. So you know ALL of the books in the film like the Don Quixote spanish edition were authentic not repos
Polanski said its very hard to tell is not a 17 century even when holding the book and inspecting it . They did a super close up of the texture of the pages. You do realize that there are people who can replicate paper so precise that it takes experts to tell its not real, And thats in hand . So when you say you can tell by watching A Dvd its not possible. You know its fake because its a movie is what I am getting at. The books binding is different . The covers were not all black .
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Flattery
Well-Known Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
Yes, correct -- several books were made. So far I've seen photos of many copies, and so far each is the same in its overall construction.
Hollow back, likely a three-fold or "Oxford" hollow tube:
The very pronounced kerfs (aka sewing stations) on the right and areas to the left where the right page "hugs" the left and form little mountains within the fold are indicative of recessed-cord sewing, possibly tapes or lockstitch, and not flexible sewing around five cords:
I've seen all this before and can recognize it because I've done it many times.
Just sayin'.
EDIT: I do want to reiterate that I'm not saying the binder did a bad job. My project has different intent and therefore different specifications.
Yes, correct -- several books were made. So far I've seen photos of many copies, and so far each is the same in its overall construction.
Hollow back, likely a three-fold or "Oxford" hollow tube:
The very pronounced kerfs (aka sewing stations) on the right and areas to the left where the right page "hugs" the left and form little mountains within the fold are indicative of recessed-cord sewing, possibly tapes or lockstitch, and not flexible sewing around five cords:
I've seen all this before and can recognize it because I've done it many times.
Just sayin'.
EDIT: I do want to reiterate that I'm not saying the binder did a bad job. My project has different intent and therefore different specifications.
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Flattery
Well-Known Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
@Mike J.: Oh man, you should hear a couple of Masters going at it. :lol
The last time I saw a couple of puritan binders debating the finer points (I believe it was over how the corners were done on a Victorian era book), it was like being in the military all over again, and seeing a Master Chief telling a Captain how out of uniform he was.
Funny, actually -- this same Chief I was thinking of (he was the Command Master Chief), was about 15 feet away from me during an inspection, and as a LTJG walked by without his cover, he (the Chief) said, "Mornin', Chief."
The Lieutenant said, "I'm a Lieutenant, Chief."
And the Chief replied, "Not without yer cover, yer not."
Gives me a laugh every time.
@Mike J.: Oh man, you should hear a couple of Masters going at it. :lol
The last time I saw a couple of puritan binders debating the finer points (I believe it was over how the corners were done on a Victorian era book), it was like being in the military all over again, and seeing a Master Chief telling a Captain how out of uniform he was.
Funny, actually -- this same Chief I was thinking of (he was the Command Master Chief), was about 15 feet away from me during an inspection, and as a LTJG walked by without his cover, he (the Chief) said, "Mornin', Chief."
The Lieutenant said, "I'm a Lieutenant, Chief."
And the Chief replied, "Not without yer cover, yer not."
Gives me a laugh every time.
Rogue428
New Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
So, ye want to know about the 9 Gates do ye?
Let me warn you full, there's something wrong with this here prop replica...
(cue ominous rolling thunder)
Borja know'd it, Balkan know'd it, and so did Corso.
There's always something wrong with it. It's never exactly right. You'll just keep working on it and working on it until it is the best one you've ever made...and then you'll notice something wrong.
*laughs maniacally*
Just when you think you're out.... it pulls you back in!!
--------------------------------------------
In all seriousness, Flattery might have the technical chops to fully tackle this thing. You asked for pix. Here you go.
These are pictures of my copy from a run I did some years ago. These were bound by the prop-maker from the film. Our replicas differed from the film props in several small ways, but the most notable is probably the choice of paper (I reconstructed the pages and had them printed on paper, then shipped the printed pages to Paris to have them bound). As well, you'll note that the pages are not aged. This was to make the project somewhat more manageable and to give the end collectors the choice as to whether or not to age the pages themselves.). This is probably why this copy looks "thinner" than other versions. On other copies which I made myself (using extra lots of pages that were rejected for the hero prop replicas) the pages "fluffed up" for lack of a better term, and the thickness is very comparable to the film's prop.
This is a major prize of my prop collection. I keep it in a fireproof box and I haven't cracked the spine on it. It is very much the same as I received it from the binder. These pictures were taken in natural light and you'll note that the book looks very black. It is in fact a very very dark brown, but I will show you some comparison shots near the end.
Without further ado:
Now remember my mention that the book is a dark dark brown and not black. Here is a comparison shot under natural light with a copy of Moby Dick bound in black leather and gold. In the photograph the difference is negligible, but in person you can clearly tell that the copy of Moby Dick is black and the 9 Gates is not.
And I took this picture of the cover with the flash and you can clearly see it is brown... but the flash bleached it out, it is not as brown in person as it appears in the photo. It is as dark brown as you can get without it being black.
Judging from Flattery's pictures, I'd say he nailed the color right on. Hope these help.
So, ye want to know about the 9 Gates do ye?
Let me warn you full, there's something wrong with this here prop replica...
(cue ominous rolling thunder)
Borja know'd it, Balkan know'd it, and so did Corso.
There's always something wrong with it. It's never exactly right. You'll just keep working on it and working on it until it is the best one you've ever made...and then you'll notice something wrong.
*laughs maniacally*
Just when you think you're out.... it pulls you back in!!
--------------------------------------------
In all seriousness, Flattery might have the technical chops to fully tackle this thing. You asked for pix. Here you go.
These are pictures of my copy from a run I did some years ago. These were bound by the prop-maker from the film. Our replicas differed from the film props in several small ways, but the most notable is probably the choice of paper (I reconstructed the pages and had them printed on paper, then shipped the printed pages to Paris to have them bound). As well, you'll note that the pages are not aged. This was to make the project somewhat more manageable and to give the end collectors the choice as to whether or not to age the pages themselves.). This is probably why this copy looks "thinner" than other versions. On other copies which I made myself (using extra lots of pages that were rejected for the hero prop replicas) the pages "fluffed up" for lack of a better term, and the thickness is very comparable to the film's prop.
This is a major prize of my prop collection. I keep it in a fireproof box and I haven't cracked the spine on it. It is very much the same as I received it from the binder. These pictures were taken in natural light and you'll note that the book looks very black. It is in fact a very very dark brown, but I will show you some comparison shots near the end.
Without further ado:
Now remember my mention that the book is a dark dark brown and not black. Here is a comparison shot under natural light with a copy of Moby Dick bound in black leather and gold. In the photograph the difference is negligible, but in person you can clearly tell that the copy of Moby Dick is black and the 9 Gates is not.
And I took this picture of the cover with the flash and you can clearly see it is brown... but the flash bleached it out, it is not as brown in person as it appears in the photo. It is as dark brown as you can get without it being black.
Judging from Flattery's pictures, I'd say he nailed the color right on. Hope these help.
Rogue428
New Member
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED
Also, as a quick reply to the prop books in the film. IIRC, there were 14 props made for the film. These were not made all together but in waves as things changed with the production. You can see this in the film. Some shots were films with early versions of the props and others with later different versions of the props.
Some quick tells are that the Oroboros snake on the cover changes. The earlier props have the same title page as the one found in the novel. The later props feature a more stylized "figure 8" Oroborus that is replicated on the bed prop in the film when Balkan kills Liana. Also, in mid-production Polanski decided to change the meaning of the engravings / woodcuts so that the people in the drawings looked like characters from the movie. On very short notice, Francisco Sole, the artist who made the drawings was asked to change these. It is possible that these newer books were bound more hastily and may account for the case bindings observed in Baroness Kessler's study. This is just speculation on my part. But it seems plausible.
I found this among my notes when I was doing my research. This is from a press kit for the film.
"No detail was spared in ensuring that the volume The Nine Gates, the physical prop, appear as genuine as possible. Polanski knew what he wanted the engravings to look like, but finding the right person to create them was another matter. "I wanted illustrations that would look like authentic woodcuts or copper etchings of the period. And we just couldn’t get it." Then Polanski thought to approach Francisco Solé, who illustrated the Spanish and French editions of El Club Dumas. "I met him at the airport while scouting locations and explained to him what I wanted; he sent me a sample, and it was absolutely great. Then we worked over the telephone. I was shooting in the daytime and talking to him at night; I’d fax him sketches and he’d fax back the illustrations. They complete the book."
He continued, "When you take it in your hand, it looks like an antique book: the paper and the color of the paper, the print and the grain. It doesn’t look like a prop."
Again, hope this helps. I'll have to dig into the research stuff I kept. I remember having directories full of screencaps and a lot of secondary source stuff. But it is in storage right now and I have to get it out of the basement.
Also...funny aside, I'll be cleaning out a closet or something else completely unrelated and pages or engravings or something from the 9 Gates will just be there. Funny and creepy at the same time.
Also, as a quick reply to the prop books in the film. IIRC, there were 14 props made for the film. These were not made all together but in waves as things changed with the production. You can see this in the film. Some shots were films with early versions of the props and others with later different versions of the props.
Some quick tells are that the Oroboros snake on the cover changes. The earlier props have the same title page as the one found in the novel. The later props feature a more stylized "figure 8" Oroborus that is replicated on the bed prop in the film when Balkan kills Liana. Also, in mid-production Polanski decided to change the meaning of the engravings / woodcuts so that the people in the drawings looked like characters from the movie. On very short notice, Francisco Sole, the artist who made the drawings was asked to change these. It is possible that these newer books were bound more hastily and may account for the case bindings observed in Baroness Kessler's study. This is just speculation on my part. But it seems plausible.
I found this among my notes when I was doing my research. This is from a press kit for the film.
"No detail was spared in ensuring that the volume The Nine Gates, the physical prop, appear as genuine as possible. Polanski knew what he wanted the engravings to look like, but finding the right person to create them was another matter. "I wanted illustrations that would look like authentic woodcuts or copper etchings of the period. And we just couldn’t get it." Then Polanski thought to approach Francisco Solé, who illustrated the Spanish and French editions of El Club Dumas. "I met him at the airport while scouting locations and explained to him what I wanted; he sent me a sample, and it was absolutely great. Then we worked over the telephone. I was shooting in the daytime and talking to him at night; I’d fax him sketches and he’d fax back the illustrations. They complete the book."
He continued, "When you take it in your hand, it looks like an antique book: the paper and the color of the paper, the print and the grain. It doesn’t look like a prop."
Again, hope this helps. I'll have to dig into the research stuff I kept. I remember having directories full of screencaps and a lot of secondary source stuff. But it is in storage right now and I have to get it out of the basement.
Also...funny aside, I'll be cleaning out a closet or something else completely unrelated and pages or engravings or something from the 9 Gates will just be there. Funny and creepy at the same time.
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