The Nine Gates - NEW PHOTOS (page 12)

Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Thank you very much for posting those photos, Rogue428. It's nice to see a replica made by the original binder in such detail, and I must thank you for confirming some things (by posting the pictures).

There's always something wrong with it. It's never exactly right. You'll just keep working on it and working on it until it is the best one you've ever made...and then you'll notice something wrong.

That right there is bookbinding in its entirety. After you correct your first 1000 mistakes, it gets a little easier. :)

In all seriousness, Flattery might have the technical chops to fully tackle this thing.

I've in fact bound many books like that before. It was one of the first leather binding techniques I learned years ago and still practice it to this day.

You can see in the fifth photo three distinct ridges on the inside cover, a little wide -- less than an inch (also you can see the sewing stations inside the hinge -- from the bottom one, two more above it but closer together). The book was sewn on three tapes (usually linen cloth) laced into the board, each one between those two sewing stations that are close together (making a total of 8 sewing stations including the kettle stitches) confirming for me that the book is a hollow-back and the bands are glued inside the cover case. Good choice on the tapes, too -- that would allow the binder to sew it quickly but also allow for the flexibility needed for screen usage.

Reference for tape sewing: Bookbinding 101 Sewing with Cloth Tapes - YouTube

With the endbands being glued on strips instead of being sewn, plus the sewing method of the entire textblock, if I could get the right leather (crushed grain goatskin would be a good pick to match), I could bind a series of screen-accurate copies like that, each one taking maybe 2 days including the pressing time if people were really interested, but I don't want to just copy someone else's work. That would feel wrong to me.

--Argh, I just realized that my writing above really comes off sounding bad. I apologize for that. What I mean to say is that now that I've seen the details I need to see, yes, I know exactly how that book was bound. I'm going to keep my project period accurate as it was intended, as tapes and false bands would never have been used until the 19th C., but it's very good to know how the binder went about their work here, and made some good choices when it comes to getting it bound quickly but flexibly. For a little while I was going nuts wondering "tapes, or recessed cord?"

Thank you again. I do really appreciate you taking the time to provide these photos. My curiosity about the original work has been sated.

Cheers!
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

On very short notice, Francisco Sole, the artist who made the drawings was asked to change these. It is possible that these newer books were bound more hastily and may account for the case bindings observed in Baroness Kessler's study. This is just speculation on my part. But it seems plausible.

Even though I've still seen no evidence that suggests any of the props were bound with historical accuracy (regarding their inner substructure), I do agree that the circumstances seem plausible.

But again, as I've said all along, different intent and different specs. That is a very nice copy you have and would be the pinnacle of screen-accurate replicas.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Was there ever a distinct pattern inside the pentangle or just random dots?
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

There is a distinct pattern inside the pentacle. As best as I can figure it is the same pattern that goes around the cover. Somewhere among my research I have a picture of the tool the binder used to make it. I'll see if I can find it.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

That would be most excellent if you could. I wouldn't be surprised if it was done in similar fashion as I did mine if it's a hand-tool.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

100_0995.jpg


This is a picture of the tools which make the pattern on the cover and inside the pentagram. (full disclosure, pictures were taken by other RPF member when he went to visit the binder's shop after the run had been completed.)
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Ah-ha, there we are. Nice stamp and pallet. I'm a little surprised (in a good way) that she used a pallet for the border tooling instead of a fillet wheel, it's not something that is seen often.

The stamp looks remarkably similar to one I've got, though hers is wider and mine is in worse shape. Very similar, though. I may use it on some of my copies. EDIT: Scratch that, the one I was thinking of wouldn't work well in that confined of a space.

So it looks like we both independently arrived at a similar technique for tooling the interior of the pentacle, which would be to tool the lines of the arms blind (no gold or anything), mask off the arms (I used three layers of painters tape, but anything would do so long as it wasn't super thick), tool it in, then go back over the lines with the gold. It's true what they say about like minds. :)

To me it's like candy seeing the tools. Even though I use them almost every day, I've never seen one binder having the same tools (pallets, stamps, wheels, gouges) as another binder. There's just so many -- both new and antique, and even if the tools are just straight or curved lines of the same measure, the handles are different. It's fun.

Looks like she's gotten several years use out of those. I wonder if they were custom made for the film books or if she already had them.

Thanks for posting this.
 
Last edited:
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Excellent. Thanks for that pic! I listened to the commentary and he just said they went to great pains to make the book look authentic. :lol Maybe I missed something later on, but he is CRAZY difficult to pay attention to.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Yeah, he is. A buddy of mine brought over his copy of the DVD and I was disappointed by how little he talked about the book.

They certainly did a good job making the pages and engravings look authentic, along with their paper choice.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

WoW, many thanks for the detailed pics and information Rogue428! That is really incredible. Simply love this thread :love

Flattery, thanks for you video-links and support ;)
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

You're welcome, Murdoc. Please keep me apprised of your progress.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

I thought I'd share this, given the recent focus on tools in the thread. I took this photo for a member when asked about how many tools were used on the cover design.



Tooling is my most favorite part, for obvious reasons. It's a heck of a lot of fun and the tools just feel good in your hands.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

As I was finally organizing the photos I took for this thread, I came across one I had completely forgotten to post about coloring the leather.

This stuff right here is critical. Without it, none of my dye formulas will work.



Luckily there's tons of it in my area, so no shortage there.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

What exactly it is of help for? Making the colors/dyes UV-resistant :confused
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Hey, Murdoc.

It acts as an akali shifter so that the leather will accept the dye. Without it, the leather would come out looking as if it had been water stained with either a barely discernable tint or gray-ish. So, without this, the dye won't saturate the collagen fibers. I add another natural anti-UV ingredient while it's boiling.

Every natural colorant requires a fixative and/or shifter (a few don't require a fixative, but do require a shifter for leather). The common heavy metal ones (alum, tin, copper, iron sulphate, etc.) injure the leather and are too aggressive in the proportions needed.

None of the ingredients I use harm the leather and it's one of the most fulfilling things I've done. What I've been trying to do is reach back into history to discover just how the leather would have been dyed and treated at the time the book was bound. They didn't have the stuff we use today -- they either had to dye it themselves using natural extracts (aniline dye wasn't invented until 1854), or purchase it from a supplier already dyed, but in the same manner.
 
Loving the dedication on this, was there a real book of this used in the movie or was it strictly prop to base the movie around I know the image prints were real but didnt know if the book existed.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

The book itself is entirely fictional, though they did a good job with the text and engravings. They look the part compared to alchemical and occult books/writings of the time period. One that sticks out in my mind is Natural Magick by John Baptist Porta, somewhere in the late 16th C.
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

I made a major improvement to my formula for black today. This is a deep, deep brown in actuality, but the brown shades only come out in direct sunlight.

img20120504101200.jpg
 
Re: The Nine Gates - COMPLETED

Many thanks for the Info Flattery. That is really amazing how much passion you put into your work :thumbsup

Any chance to get a detailed receipt on one of your dyes:$ :confused
 
Back
Top