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I was thinking about how much of a marketing genius George Lucas truly is. The man made three iconic films, only one of which that he himself directed. He managed to finance Empire and Jedi with the profits off of Star Wars by merchandising the films with a two fold approach. One was to use the products as a means to promote the films themselves and the other to meet the demands of the fans desire to own a piece of the film and it was a perpetual cycle that funded his wildest dreams.

He spent the next decade pursuing other creative projects and building companies to further his vision for film technology advancement, all the while riding on the coat tails of his own creation, without directing a film, but producing, writing, creating new film tech, or financing other films in the process and managing to stay afloat without creating a new Star Wars film for another 16 years. Some of his efforts were flops in that time. Radioland Murders, Howard the Duck, Tucker: The Man and his Dream all bombed, but his pioneering companies kept him afloat.

Now keep in mind back in the late 80's early 90's fans were starved for Star Wars content and merchandise which is why older fans like myself who lived during that era refer to it as "the dark times." So even if the EU novels weren't always good, it was still new material with no new films on the horizon. The scarcity alone created fervent demand and George literally capitalized on it to great effect. The world had moved on but the die-hards like me still held the torch during the interim. We spent years debating whether his "Prequel" trilogy would ever come to pass. You'd hear rumors about it and read vague references in sci-fi magazines from industry insiders who would share some anecdote about Lucas's supposed plans. Star Wars was pretty much in a drought. The Kenner line ended in 1985 and it wouldn't be until a decade later that Hasbro would make a new line of figures, which was a huge deal at the time. He knew how to meter out content and merchandise just right.

Compare that to Lucasfilm now with their deluge of material. In the span of 6 years Lucasfilm has released 5 feature films, 3 of which saw the continuation with the original cast, two stand alone films, two seasons of a hit TV show, several cartoons, dozens of novels, comics, merchandise, and now The High Republic campaign. The High Republic is coming off the heels of the conclusion of the saga films, where Shadows of the Empire came out when no new films were officially announced and barely any other content was there to support the demand. Seeing Lucasfilm now making the comparison between both campaigns of "everything but the movie" neglects the context of the time in which each campaign was released. Then forthcoming we have 10 new original shows and movies in the near future. That's a MASSIVE amount of content in such a short time.

I get that it's a different era we live in and that they have a different approach but it's such a wildly different one and it could be that not every project announced will take off. On the bright side, some may go further than any of us anticipate. We'll have to wait and see. I wonder if the sheer volume of content forthcoming will be as well received just due to the amount of it. Part of the success of the EU wasn't because all the content was good but because we were so starved for new stories we were open to giving it a chance. That's a very different time than what we're experiencing now. As a consumer having lots of options is good, but it could backfire because we are being spoiled.

Lucasfilm as a company has currently produced more Star Wars film and television content in 6 years than George Lucas himself created over the course of his entire career.

Let that sink in for a second.
 
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As far as I'm concerned, the only live-action Star Wars that has been produced since 2005 has been The Mandalorian.
I see The Clone Wars and Rebels kind of like I see the EU: it is a different format, most of it is filler and some I'd prefer to disregard because it is not consistent.
 
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I have slightly mixed feelings about the EU. As a young kid I was not aware of canon vs. EU. The comics, books, cartoons and the movies were the story and I enjoyed a lot of it. It wasn't until the late 80's/early 90's in a comic book store that I remember learning the difference. I was told that the EU was garbage and the movies were the only "real" story. It was a surreal experience and my reaction was surprise, how can an imaginary story be "real" and why is this guy swearing in my face about it?

I realized that in some ways he was right despite his obnoxious approach in the following weeks. Many aspects/stories/characters of the EU are completely ridiculous, it's full of contradiction and much of it is just plain useless. But I think a portion of it is inventive, even a little of the later EU material. The part of me that enjoyed those stories as a young kid, had no knowledge of any canon difference, still has some positive feeling about it despite all of it not being the best most cohesive material in the world. Will I defend it to the death because I grew up on it and is part of a larger universe that I really enjoy? No way. But I'll still smile when I re-read Star Wars 96- Duel With a Dark Lady.

Star Wars needs to go in different directions and take risks, to sometimes fail in order to produce better material. Less committee decisions, corporate bs and more autonomy for directors will probably yield better results.
 
I think Disney actually screwed up with their approach to Star Wars and the EU. Instead of making everything they make canon, they should have deemed everything but the core six movies as canon and have their content be alternative what if’s and additions to explore the lore with settings like the Star Wars universe before the Jedi order, the birth of the Jedi and Sith, the life of a bounty hunter or smugglers trying to survive during the empire (this is basically the Mandalorian and Firefly lol).

The adherence to the core 6 timeline and focus on Jedi has resulted in a typical method to introducing new characters: this new character is a hidden Jedi who “survived” order 66 not named Obi Wan or Yoda. This background is essentially given to video games have Starkiller and Cal Kestis as well as the inquisitors. Books/comics had Darth Krayt. Rebels has Ashoka and Kanan.

the problem with this narrative is it also undermines the OT. The increasing number of jedi undermines the horror that was Order 66 and Vader’s followup purge in that hey really didn’t do a good job wiping out the Jedi. Also makes viewers doubt that Luke and Leia was truly the galaxy’s last hope when there are many better trained Jedi roaming around. For example, Ashoka was still kicking after Vader’s death as shown in the Mandalorian and she was proven to be able to hold her own against him in rebels. Why didn’t she and Obi Wan gang up on Vader and take him out?

Also undermines the ST too. Hell, it’s hard to really believe that Luke (now Rey) is really the “last Jedi” because I wouldn’t be surprised if the child or another survivor is still up and kicking.

(How the last Jedi should have played out)

Ben: and with you, I will have killed the last Jedi.
Luke: I’m not even the last Jedi on this system dude. There is Ashoka on Datooine, the child in Dagobah. Cal on Dagomir. Also had a recent meet up with Kanan on Corosaunt...
 
Some stories just overstay their welcome.
I’m a big Firefly fan and I’ve come to the realization lately that while it would be great for there to have been more of it I’m actually grateful that the show exists in this “completed” form. It removed the potential for them to have spiraled into mediocrity and endless storylines. I know they have comics etc, but new content in that setting is so few and far between that it’s a joy for the people that follow it when something does come out. New Star Wars content feels like a chore at times.
 
I remember a lot of people here when Disney announced everything was canon saying it was the greatest thing for SW ever. I warned that some of the old EU was complete crap and now all the crap will be canon. At least with the old EU the authors could have fun and it really wouldn't have any repercussions on the movies. Now the bad is part of the story. So if they did this with the old EU that would mean old lightsaber knees (Lord Nyax) will now be as canon as Luke and Han.

I still love some of the EU stuff more than anything Disney has done. And back with the old EU I don't remember Lucasfilm allowing authors to repeatedly insult fans or spout racism, and then back the author the way they do now.
 
I remember a lot of people here when Disney announced everything was canon saying it was the greatest thing for SW ever. I warned that some of the old EU was complete crap and now all the crap will be canon. At least with the old EU the authors could have fun and it really wouldn't have any repercussions on the movies. Now the bad is part of the story. So if they did this with the old EU that would mean old lightsaber knees (Lord Nyax) will now be as canon as Luke and Han.

Ah, nostalgia.

lightsaberknees.jpg


:lol:

If anything, parts of the old EU were so bad at least we can look back on them now for a good hard ugly-laugh, MST3K style. Time to punch some otters!

hanotterpunch.jpg
 
I mean, see earlier -- this is the problem with Star Wars being written by fans, rather than authors who happen to like Star Wars. Big difference. As much as I like the X-Wing books, Corran is Mike's Gary Stu. In his own way, worse than Rey. In general, those books and comics are... fun... but remind me too much, too often, of transcripts of someone's networked X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter game sessions with his friends.

Out of all the pre-Disney EU, I have found a very short list of authors who I feel got it, and whose work I go back and re-read more than once. Brian Daley and James Luceno, Matt Stover, Troy Denning's solo work (hated his Legacy of the Force collaborative/confrontational offerings), Aaron Allston, and most of Karen Traviss. I like bits and pieces of others' work. And far more than I would like I find -- and found -- simply execrable. That latter category is mostly stuff written by people who were fans first and authors second. My picks above were authors first, and fans second. It counts.

As for Order 66 survivors... I'm mixed. Before Lucas mucked everything up with the Prequels, the timeline was drawn out enough it worked. It was a long slide toward Empire. The Jedi were discredited and disbanded, hunted down over time until any survivors were far enough underground to not be deemed an immediate threat. Those who stayed active and fought against Palpatine and Vader made targets of themselves. A bit like the Knights Templar. When they were disbanded and declared excommunicate, yes a few of the senior leadership were executed, but the vast majority just dispersed and went underground -- less so the further away they got from the loci of Catholic power and authority. Heck, the Templar cross is an element of many Eastern European towns', principalities', and even the kingdom/nation or Hungary's coats of arms, being in the purview of the Eastern Orthodox Church. (Only times since the 12th century it wasn't part of Hungary's arms was when a relative of Phillip IV of France -- who had engineered the Templars' disgrace and disbanding because he owed them a lot of money -- became king of Hungary... and while it was a Soviet holding.) So I can easily see a lot of Jedi fleeing the Purge to Hutt space or the Outer Rim. Lots of obscure planets and moons to settle on where people haven't even heard of the Empire, or just flat don't care.
 
I’m a big Firefly fan and I’ve come to the realization lately that while it would be great for there to have been more of it I’m actually grateful that the show exists in this “completed” form. It removed the potential for them to have spiraled into mediocrity and endless storylines. I know they have comics etc, but new content in that setting is so few and far between that it’s a joy for the people that follow it when something does come out. New Star Wars content feels like a chore at times.

you may be right about Firefly. I do love the show and wished it continued (I did watch it when it was already off the air and so watched the episodes in order) but you are right that tv shows can go far too long and ruin the series.

As an example, I think the show runners for Prison Break initially planned for 2 seasons with the 2 brothers escaping via boat at the end. However, since the show was so popular, it was renewed and they had to put the main character in prison. The quality of the writing takes a huge downturn from season 3 onward and is just terrible.

Got to say that the executive at Fox during that period was the GRR Martin of good tv shows. Dark Angel was great and scrapped for Firefly. Firefly was scrapped for John Doe which also only got one season. Fox was able to churn out great shows but never really gave many of them a chance to shine and overstayed the welcome of others (Simpsons).
 
you may be right about Firefly. I do love the show and wished it continued (I did watch it when it was already off the air and so watched the episodes in order) but you are right that tv shows can go far too long and ruin the series.

As an example, I think the show runners for Prison Break initially planned for 2 seasons with the 2 brothers escaping via boat at the end. However, since the show was so popular, it was renewed and they had to put the main character in prison. The quality of the writing takes a huge downturn from season 3 onward and is just terrible.
I find that lot of shows do this, they wrap up the main story/premise of the show very early on in the show's run and the rest of the show doesn't live up that first/early seasons. Alias and Heroes were both like this, they wrapped things up very early on and afterwards it was like, now what?
 
Shows over in the UK often only have 2 maybe 3 seasons because they understand that restraint often makes for better story telling.

I almost wonder if it's an American thing. Everything in excess. Including entertainment. I miss the days when not every hit movie became a franchise or had a sequel.
 
Shows over in the UK often only have 2 maybe 3 seasons because they understand that restraint often makes for better story telling.

I almost wonder if it's an American thing. Everything in excess. Including entertainment. I miss the days when not every hit movie became a franchise or had a sequel.
I don't think that it's excess, I think that it's just the way the business model has been established and the big networks, and now streaming services, don't know how or are unwilling to change. All they know is to have a show run until it's no longer profitable to do so because that's the way it's always been done. You have to remember that all of these networks and studios aren't in the business of entertaining people, they're in the business of making money, entertainment is just how they make their money. Because of that, they like sticking to what they know because they know it works and make them money, so why change?
 
Heroes had a problem. They had intended each season to be its own self-contained thing. Maybe with a single "bystander" character as a throughline. But when season one turned out to be hella popular and people wanted to see Peter and the Cop and Hulk-Woman (just remembering some of the ways people shorthanded the characters back in the day) come back... Well, they revised their plan for the series. And then partway into season 2 the writers' strike happened. There were a couple ways they could have gone with that and they picked the worst. They had already set things up with how they structures season 1 -- two arcs, comprising the two halves of the then-typical US TV season, bracketing the Christmas break in the middle. They had a longer mid-season hiatus than most, and used that to build anticipation. When the writers' strike happened, they could have ended season 2 at the hiatus and resumed with the following arc in the fall -- just bump everything a half-season. Or they could have held what they had and just released season 2 in the fall, once things were normal again.

Instead, they pulled a Return of the Jedi and crammed all of the second half of season 2 into the last couple episodes of the first arc. Most plot threads they'd been developing were abandoned. Several characters just vanished without comment. And I think that crippled the entire show going forward.

I feel like Firefly would have been more like Supernatural started out -- standalone episodes as the series found its footing evolving into a story arc that continued through several years before arriving at a conclusion. Where Supernatural ended with the 5th season. I trust Joss to have had more integrity than the Supernatural showrunners and not kowtow to pressure to keep the show around just because people didn't want to see it leave. Maybe bring it back at some point in the future if there were new stories to tell, but not "just because". Like how where Leverage ended (and if you haven't watched it, go, now, binge it and get back to me). There had been character growth throughout. No one was the same as when the show started. Some characters had reached a natural point where they could move on with their lives. Others reformatted the original premise to continue their work. It's my perfect ending for anything -- book, comic, movie, TV show: I would love to see more, but I am satisfied. I can push back from the table with a smile on my face and ruminate on what I just took in. I am not left hungry. I am not overstuffed. If they came back with a good, well-founded premise for a Leverage revival, I'd trust them to get it right, and not just be a cash grab.
 
Shows over in the UK often only have 2 maybe 3 seasons because they understand that restraint often makes for better story telling.
And even then it often becomes a chore. Loved the first season (meaning 3 episodes) of Sherlock, second one okay ending with a good hook, third one was already pretty dodgy and final one was just like GOT ending.
Just tell a good story from start to finish. Don't say I have 1/3 of a story, let's run with it and see if I can stretch it out and wing the rest. Literally the only one that could pull it off was Breaking Bad.
 
I'm old enough to call that "Best of Both Worlds Syndrome". The third season of Star Trek: The Next Generation left us on a cliffhanger, and a hell of a one, at that. First time a Trek series had done that. We were utterly unprepared for the "To be continued..." at the end. That summer was excruciating and rumors were flying pretty fast and furious. Picard had been taken and altered by the Borg, their ship was regenerating and would be able to resume travel toward Earth any moment, Riker had no time to try to come up with another plan, gave the order to fire...

Was Picard going to die? Did Patrick want off the show? Was Riker going to be the Captain now? Was Q going to show up and intervene? Were Guinan's mysterious abilities going to come into play? Would they get Picard back, but he'd be a cyborg, and Data would help him, in a turnabout of their relationship to that point?

Problem is, the showrunners were asking themselves those same questions. They wrote the setup without knowing the resolution. They kept saying, "Oh, we have time to figure it out..." until suddenly they didn't. And the conclusion they came up with was... underwhelming.

This is why mystery writers start with the answer and then work backward to obfuscate it. With Leverage, they knew how they were going to end it, and did. With Supernatural, they knew how they were going to end it, and did... until they didn't. With Firefly, Joss knew where he was going to end it, but never got the change to either fulfill that or abrogate it. With Heroes, they knew where they were going, but changed horses midstream. Then fell off and drowned.

And don't even get me going on Star Wars. *braces against the chorus of "TOO LATE!"*
 
I mean, see earlier -- this is the problem with Star Wars being written by fans, rather than authors who happen to like Star Wars. Big difference. As much as I like the X-Wing books, Corran is Mike's Gary Stu. In his own way, worse than Rey. In general, those books and comics are... fun... but remind me too much, too often, of transcripts of someone's networked X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter game sessions with his friends.

Out of all the pre-Disney EU, I have found a very short list of authors who I feel got it, and whose work I go back and re-read more than once. Brian Daley and James Luceno, Matt Stover, Troy Denning's solo work (hated his Legacy of the Force collaborative/confrontational offerings), Aaron Allston, and most of Karen Traviss. I like bits and pieces of others' work. And far more than I would like I find -- and found -- simply execrable. That latter category is mostly stuff written by people who were fans first and authors second. My picks above were authors first, and fans second. It counts.

As for Order 66 survivors... I'm mixed. Before Lucas mucked everything up with the Prequels, the timeline was drawn out enough it worked. It was a long slide toward Empire. The Jedi were discredited and disbanded, hunted down over time until any survivors were far enough underground to not be deemed an immediate threat. Those who stayed active and fought against Palpatine and Vader made targets of themselves. A bit like the Knights Templar. When they were disbanded and declared excommunicate, yes a few of the senior leadership were executed, but the vast majority just dispersed and went underground -- less so the further away they got from the loci of Catholic power and authority. Heck, the Templar cross is an element of many Eastern European towns', principalities', and even the kingdom/nation or Hungary's coats of arms, being in the purview of the Eastern Orthodox Church. (Only times since the 12th century it wasn't part of Hungary's arms was when a relative of Phillip IV of France -- who had engineered the Templars' disgrace and disbanding because he owed them a lot of money -- became king of Hungary... and while it was a Soviet holding.) So I can easily see a lot of Jedi fleeing the Purge to Hutt space or the Outer Rim. Lots of obscure planets and moons to settle on where people haven't even heard of the Empire, or just flat don't care.

Did you ever read the Darth Bane books by Drew Karpyshyn? I'd put those three up with the RC novels and my other favs. I still give Aaron Allston credit, because that's one of the few books, certainly SW books, that made me tear up when that one person dies in the Wraith Squadron novels. It was so well written that if you put that scene in a real world setting or real military fiction it would have still worked great.


As for Order 66 survivors, so far we're only seen a couple, and I think that's about where Lucasfilm should leave it. Just having Kanan Jarrus in Rebels is one too many Jedi associated with the Alliance. You can't tell me that at no point, some Rebel didn't go up to Luke and say "Hey there were these other two Jedi hanging around a couple years back...". I think something came out recently where Lucas said around 100 Jedi survived Order 66. That probably means they survived Day 1, so by that first week they could have gotten a lot of them. Now I'm guessing a very large percentage 80%-90% were probably hunted down. I doubt many of them could stand to sit around and watch while everything was going to hell. So you have a small amount left that probably went to ground, actually followed Yoda's orders, and never resurfaced. They might have even heard of Luke and thought it was an Imperial trick to get them to pop their heads up. So I would be fine if they were mentioned, but never show up as live characters.
 
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