Lets talk all things Star Wars

[ThreadSketch]

Well, Lucas' plan had been to have Obi-Wan gradually pulling his sense of self back together over Luke's arc -- from disembodied voice to hazy and distant static figure to close and clear but still static figure to fully present and mobile and able to interact with the physical world -- and, ultimately, to step back across the veil to full corporeality when Luke faced the Emperor. Remember the full line he delivered to Vader in Star Wars was, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine -- but if my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist." It was a rare-ish discipline, in his mind, but a thing Jedi could do and Sith couldn't. Part of his problem with the EU was things like Exar Kun -- in his view, Sith didn't leave Force ghosts.

Anyway, that notion survived all the way up until he had compressed the rest of Luke's arc from four films to one and it was in story sessions for ROTJ that he decided having Obi-Wan come back would undercut Luke's triumph, and the "I cannot interfere" line was created. I, personally, like to think it's just because Luke would be confronting the Emperor in his Place of Power and the Dark Side would be too strong for Ben to manifest there. After the Prequels, I further like to imagine that moment as Ghost Obi-Wan steels himself, closes his eyes, takes a step -- and with a skin-crinkling effect, he's there in the flesh... Ewan MacGregor's flesh. Now-in-his-prime-again Obi-Wan looks down at his hands, raises his eyebrows, and says, "Well... I admit I wasn't expecting that."

I still stand by that he couldn't interfere because of the Dark-Side miasma surrounding the Emperor (and Vader?) keeping him out. "Piss off, ghost!" and that we never plumbed the depths of what Force ghosts were or were not capable of, but I feel "I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" should have more clout than just "...because it will give the next Hero his burning motivation to kick your ass when he sees you kill me".

I didn't like, either, how EU authors had no idea what to do with Force ghosts, so just pretty much wrote them out. Of the things TROS did right, I do feel they reclaimed Force ghosts.

This particular scenario makes me reconsider "Force ghosting" (heh) less as a sacrifice/death and more like an ultimate enlightenment in which the Jedi could transcend the physical realm and literally give up their body to the Force to temporarily become a disembodied spirit. Like the utmost achievement or understanding of There is no death, there is the Force - they could step between existing with "crude matter" or without as a "luminous being" only.

 

[Treadwell]

Ben DID interfere when Luke was flying down the DS trench. Remember, Luke made a first, failed pass that was edited out. Obi-Wan then talks to him, and only THEN does Vader notice him having strength in the Force. Ben gave him a Force boost.

 

[CB2001]

Ben DID interfere when Luke was flying down the DS trench. Remember, Luke made a first, failed pass that was edited out. Obi-Wan then talks to him, and only THEN does Vader notice him having strength in the Force. Ben gave him a Force boost.

That's weird. As far back as the VHS release when I was a kid, I always remembered it was Red Leader who failed a pass and then Luke took over because Vader shot him down, and he only had attempt. Kinda makes you wonder why Vader didn't take Luke out during the first attempt when he had the chance to if that was the case. :/

 

[Treadwell]

You are right, that's how the film ended up. It was originally intended for Luke to have two passes, though, in addition to Red Leader's. It was eliminated during editing. (Perhaps I shouldn't have said "cut out", because it might never have been included even in early edits.)

 

[CB2001]

You are right, that's how the film ended up. It was originally intended for Luke to have two passes, though, in addition to Red Leader's. It was eliminated during editing. (Perhaps I shouldn't have said "cut out", because it might never have been included even in early edits.)

It's a good thing it was removed. I mean, it would have been kind of repetitive to have three attempts and it obviously working on a third one. By just having the two, it makes it more urgent and heightens the suspense.

 

[robn1]

Biggs' line "Hurry Luke, they're coming much faster this time, we can't hold them", is a remnant of the cut first run.

 

[HeartBlade]

Ben DID interfere when Luke was flying down the DS trench. Remember, Luke made a first, failed pass that was edited out. Obi-Wan then talks to him, and only THEN does Vader notice him having strength in the Force. Ben gave him a Force boost.

I always thought Obi Wan was encouraging Luke to tap into and use the force as opposed to boosting him.

I prefer the force ghosts just be advisors to guide rather than actual entities with the ability to impact the universe since it would be the perfect “be careful why you wish for” to the Sith.

The Sith seem to seek immortality as one of the goals in their further pursuit in studying the force as seen in the prequels. However, it’s also implied that the Sith who achieved immortality would want to interact and rule the world. Making it only a light side benefit that is earned through selfless dedication rather than selfish short-term study fits the idea that the light side is at least equal or likely more powerful than the dark but takes longer to attain. It would also be a fate the Sith would hate since they would be just observers while the Jedi can appreciate because they can share their knowledge to alter generations.

Having the force ghosts be able to interact and impact the world would defeat that balance imo.

 

[Treadwell]

Even giving Luke a pep talk to access the Force on his own is still interfering. Imagine him doing that during the Luke/Vader duel.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Even giving Luke a pep talk to access the Force on his own is still interfering. Imagine him doing that during the Luke/Vader duel.

Like if he'd told Luke to tell Vader that Obi Wan was having an affair with Padme, then told Luke to get the high ground, cause anger & the high ground are Vader's kryptonite?

Lol
Seriously though, I think it was a better idea that Ben didn't help, simply because Ben & Yoda wanted Vader destroyed, yet Luke wanted him redeemed. It would almost have Luke fighting on two fronts, both mental & physical.

 

[Ron]

It's a good thing it was removed. I mean, it would have been kind of repetitive to have three attempts and it obviously working on a third one. By just having the two, it makes it more urgent and heightens the suspense.

Not only that but having Luke attempt a previous time without using the force undermines his decision to then use the force when he does. Luke has to "let go" of what he knows and put his trust into a power he doesn't fully understand. That's a huge leap of faith. If the first Luke run had been left in the final cut, then his decision to use the force is less of a leap of faith and more of a "Welp, that didn't work. Might as well try using the force this time." They were 100% right to leave it out.

 

[HeartBlade]

I agree. Rule of 3 is a thing so it becomes expected that the thing that needs to be accomplished will happen on the third try.

And regarding interfering, well yes by giving advise and insight you are interfering but the person receiving the advice still has agency to do what needs to be done and the onus is still on the living to accomplish what needs to be done. If force ghosts can directly interact with the world via interacting with objects or force lightning, why should the heroes bother. Send in the ghosts aka army of the dead lol.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Or LOTR. Instead of promising they will be freed like Aragorn did, Luke could have promised Yoda he wouldn't have to return in the crappy Sequel movies!

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

You say the story sessions for ROTJ? But the "I can not interfere." line comes from ESB. I don't quite understand.

Boy, howdy. I watch these movies too many times, too many years ago, they all blur together. Thank you for making me go back and scrub my memory. Yes, in Empire, Obi-Wan says he cannot interfere. That, at the time, was an expression of his limitations -- still "pulling himself together". By ROTJ, George was floating the idea of completing that arc, but decided against it for the reasons I said. So what I said was true... from a certain point of view.

 

[HeartBlade]

Kind of reviving a dead thread but watched Star Wars’ lightsaber duels again and wondered about one thing:

why do the Jedi/Sith incorporate spins in their attacks?

I know the PT got a lot of flak for having too many fancy spins when fighting but it’s in the OT too. Obi Wan in his old body does a full body spin in front of Vader and Luke also does in ESB in his first duel.

I did used to think it was a form thing but in every duel, the let me show my back to you move is only done in the first half of the duel with the later half being more conservative in spins (there are some but much rarer than the beginning).

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Kind of reviving a dead thread but watched Star Wars’ lightsaber duels again and wondered about one thing:

why do the Jedi/Sith incorporate spins in their attacks?

I know the PT got a lot of flak for having too many fancy spins when fighting but it’s in the OT too. Obi Wan in his old body does a full body spin in front of Vader and Luke also does in ESB in his first duel.

I did used to think it was a form thing but in every duel, the let me show my back to you move is only done in the first half of the duel with the later half being more conservative in spins (there are some but much rarer than the beginning).

In-universe, it was the idea of a body's spinning momentum would be transferred to the saber strike.

In reality, as you already know, it just looked cool.

IMO, watch the Ben/Maul fight on Tattooine in REBELS for the greatest saber fight, but I'm sure others feel differently.

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

I still think Luke vs. Vader in ROTJ is the best lightsaber duel ever for reasons it would be nearly impossible to duplicate or supersede. The Maul Obi-wan duel in Rebels is truly awesome though and is understandable why people put it first. There are excellent arguments for it and for some of the other duels.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

I still think Luke vs. Vader in ROTJ is the best lightsaber duel ever for reasons it would be nearly impossible to duplicate or supersede. The Maul Obi-wan duel in Rebels is truly awesome though and is understandable why people put it first. There are excellent arguments for it and for some of the other duels.

I think the Vader/Luke duel told the best emotional story. There was an entire movies worth it character arc in that fight. I agree that it would be hard to top that, just based on what it did, where it occurred in the overall story, & the almost unanimous love for it all these decades later.

I think the Ben/Maul fight was the closest we'll see to an actual, realistic, samurai-like duel. There have been so many breakdowns on what was included in that fight & why, I won't regurgitate it here, but I guess I just think that they were both perfect in their respective places.

You couldn't interchange any OT duel for another one & have it work. Each one was it's own story, & unlike the PT,I think the REBELS fight falls in that same category. IMO that is.

 

[ghostryder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1356310857744076802

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I'd have to say the ESB Vader/Luke duel is my favorite. I would almost say my favorite lightsaber scene is not a duel, it's during the ROTJ speeder chase when Luke jumps off, ignites his lightsaber, deflects that incoming fire, and then chops off the steering forks. I remember clearly as a 6 year old kid in the theater going "Wow! That's what a Jedi can do?!?!"

 

[Psab keel]

I always loved the speeder bike chase and the ending to that still to this day gives me chills. Luke is so badass in that movie! He doesn't always jump to use his saber but when he does you know you're in trouble. It's that restraint until all other options fail is what really conveyed his maturity as a warrior and a character by that point in the story. He would prefer not to fight but if there was no alternative he never cowered in the face of danger.