Lets talk all things Star Wars
- Status
tgtiw
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of mentions regarding Directors and their distinct visual styles and I think that's one of the failings of the new trilogy. JJ has a recognizable visual style, Tarantino has one, Nolan, Anderson, etc.. But they aren't making a JJ Abrams film, or a Tarantino film, they're making a Star Wars film and the style and cinematography should reflect that. I would prefer there is less focus on finding a place to toss in a lens flare, or a Beastie Boys reference, or a role for Gordon-Levitt, and concentrate on forwarding the story started in 1977. I think that's one of the reasons the original trilogy succeeded, Kershner made the next Star Wars movie, not the next Irving Kershner movie.
This is one of the things that turned me off to Abrams in the Star Trek reboot. I couldn't help rolling my eyes at child Kirk stealing the car and blasting Beastie boys or him naming that X-wing pilot after one of their songs.
Darth Fetty
Sr Member
Interesting video. I don't agree with most of it, but enjoyed it. Art is subjective, so I'm glad he was able to pull out some stuff like this and enjoy the movie for it. However, I really doubt half of the themes he is explaining were actually intended to be part of the film. Rey and Luke had egos? No way, Luke was blatantly self-loathing. Poe and Kylo yes, but not Rey or Luke. Among the themes that I do believe were included, I found them way too cliche to be contributing any meaningful commentary, and I mean this especially for the ridiculously oversimplified references to war-profiteering.
I also see this argument a lot that those who didn't like TLJ wanted something familiar whereas those who enjoyed it supposedly appreciated how it was different. I can't get behind this at all. I wanted something different, and I've wanted it since Disney took over. Yet some of the things that peeved me most about TLJ were all the blatant ripoffs of previous Star Wars movies. I saw very little that was new or creative in TLJ.
The worst ripoff was of the ROTJ throne room scene. Kylo/Vader kills Snoke/Emperor while Snoke/Emperor nearly kills Rey/Luke during which they observe a space battle taking place outside a window. Even the dialogue was absurdly similar with the talk of "fulfill your destiny" and all that. AT-AT's attacking a rebel/resistance base on a white planet with speeders trying to defend it? That was there. Dark side cave vision on a secluded planet during Jedi training in the second act of a three act story before the trainee runs off to save her friends? That was also there.... At least we had the first ever high speed chase in space....
Joek3rr
Master Member
My favorite part was him showing Ben's reaction was similar to an abused child.
But yeah there's similarities between it and other films. I personally like to see the familiar but with a twist. Sure the Snoke's throne room has it's similarities to the Emperor's in ROTJ. But George did it twice, in ROTS. And you've got your AT walkers attacking a rebel faction. But you have that in ATOC as well. And you even have the learner running off against his master's wishes. About the only thing you mentioned that ATOC doesn't do, is the Dark Side cave thing. Which I would have loved to see with Anakin.
It an interesting perspective and certainly does a good job of touching on the attempts at nuance in the movie. I can say to its credit that The Last Jedi is beautifully filmed and I can appreciate that Rian Johnson was trying to put a more complex lens over our perceptions of what a Star Wars movie can be, but I found his execution to be disjointed, and frankly rather dismissive of what came before it. Not for the sake of trying to make a more "mature" Star Wars film but because his ideas about the series are intentionally contrarian for their own sake and not for the betterment of the film. To argue that it's more intellectual has a bit of merit, but being intelligent doesn't mean the movie has to be boring. I also would have been more open to his film had he not reacted so rudely to fans online.
Though I think overall the perspective in this video is highly intellectualized and not exactly indicative of the end product. I can agree that all art is subjective. I mean we can all analyze it to death but sometimes it boils down to two simple questions. Did you find this movie entertaining? Did you care about the characters?
For me it failed on both those levels.
I don't need things dumbed down for me and can appreciate intellectual depth from entertainment but to me this wasn't a good example of that. Part of Star Wars appeal for me personally is its simplicity in having clearly defined heroes and villains and finding interesting ways to explore the nature of Good vs. Evil in a timeless way. Trying to mess with that structure and make ageless themes "relevant" but miring them in the cynical views of today bucks against the entire pupose of the story because then it robs it of optimism which is primarily what draws people to it in the first place.
Star Wars has never been a good vehicle for exploring timely social issues or the nature of power structures and those ideas are best suited for other stories. If anything it would be better, in my view, to have Star Wars be the optimistic view and have another series come along which addresses the same principles but use the same genre of space opera as a means to challenge our thinking on Star Wars and offer a different perspective. In this way art becomes dialog between artists and audiences alike.
Though I think overall the perspective in this video is highly intellectualized and not exactly indicative of the end product. I can agree that all art is subjective. I mean we can all analyze it to death but sometimes it boils down to two simple questions. Did you find this movie entertaining? Did you care about the characters?
For me it failed on both those levels.
I don't need things dumbed down for me and can appreciate intellectual depth from entertainment but to me this wasn't a good example of that. Part of Star Wars appeal for me personally is its simplicity in having clearly defined heroes and villains and finding interesting ways to explore the nature of Good vs. Evil in a timeless way. Trying to mess with that structure and make ageless themes "relevant" but miring them in the cynical views of today bucks against the entire pupose of the story because then it robs it of optimism which is primarily what draws people to it in the first place.
Star Wars has never been a good vehicle for exploring timely social issues or the nature of power structures and those ideas are best suited for other stories. If anything it would be better, in my view, to have Star Wars be the optimistic view and have another series come along which addresses the same principles but use the same genre of space opera as a means to challenge our thinking on Star Wars and offer a different perspective. In this way art becomes dialog between artists and audiences alike.
sbaxter
Sr Member
A couple of points here with regard to Lost, which I absolutely loved. First, JJ was a producer on the series, and he co-wrote and directed the pilot episode for the series. He knew the show was going to have fantastical elements, and they included "The Monstah" (represented in the pilot by disrupted trees and sound effects; it wasn't even the Smoke Monster yet) in that episode, because he believes that if a series is going to include sci-fi and/or fantasy elements, they have to be introduced in the first episode. Apart from that and co-writing the third season premiere, he stepped back from the show after that and his input was mostly informal from that point.
I had been primed by Twin Peaks to love Lost, and I also realized pretty early on that no matter how Lost eventually ended, a large number of earlier fans were going to be disappointed. There was so much mystery in the beginning, and mystery represents possibilities. As the show progressed, some of the answers started coming, or, if not concrete answers, at least the show started giving some strong hints as to what the answers were not going to be. Some fans were disappointed along the way, as they realized that whatever they thought or hoped it would be was not going to happen, and they were unable or unwilling to allow it to be something else. I decided in season five that I had enjoyed the journey so much by that point that there was very little chance they could spoil it with anything they could do at the end, even if they deliberately tried to crash the show into a mountain. And in the end, I loved the finale -- including the fact that there were still some minor mysteries remaining. And I have always felt the show was a puzzle -- do you want a puzzle to assemble itself, or to give you the pieces and let you put at least some of it together yourself? I mean, Twin Peaks answered the initial question it posed, and left us with a huge pile of even larger mysteries -- and it stayed that way for over 25 years. Then it returned and told us we only thought what we had seen previously was weird and puzzling, defying expectations again!
Twin Peaks and Lost fully engaged my mind as no other shows ever have. No matter how they ended, I can only love them for that.
With The Rise of Skywalker still to come, it is too early to declare all the questions raised by TFA and TLJ as "permanently unsolved." Let's at least wait until we have all the pieces we're going to be given.
SSB
I think JJ mistakes a sense of wonder for a sense of mystery. Mystery implies there are questions that need answering and if I want a sense of mystery I will watch a thriller like Lost or read Sherlock Holmes.
A sense of wonder is a subtle hint of things that build upon the world that don't need explanation. JJ made his mysteries central to his plot with Star Wars. There is a big difference in those two approaches and to me it was a mistake because Star Wars has never been a detective story where the audience is expected to ponder over the meaning of the plot.
A sense of wonder is a subtle hint of things that build upon the world that don't need explanation. JJ made his mysteries central to his plot with Star Wars. There is a big difference in those two approaches and to me it was a mistake because Star Wars has never been a detective story where the audience is expected to ponder over the meaning of the plot.
HMSwolfe
Master Member
Therein lies the problem, I think. Star Wars never was a mystery. Any “plot twists” were introduced in sequels, to deepen the story, not “mystery boxes” added in the first installment to ensure you stuck around. ANH is a totally self-contained story. Luke had no sister, his father was killed by Vader. ESB is a perfect bridge/second act. Now we find out that Vader is his father, that Obi-Wan lied, and that there “is another”. ROTJ, although it has problems, has the perfect resolution for Luke’s journey.
Artificially inflating interest in characters or plots just by promising that there is a mystery to be solved is kind of weak, in my opinion. I know that Twin Peaks has (or had) a huge cult following, and so did Lost, but the fact that you knew that “a large number of fans would be disappointed” is pertinent to the eventuality that it did not make for a general audience. Star Wars is a general audience franchise, not niche interest. And if anything, the fact that JJ wasn’t around when the dissatisfying endings happened in Lost just convinces me further that the “mystery boxes” are his fault. Introduced mystery+no plan=no payoff.
My brother is a big fan of an author named Brandon Sanderson. I don’t love his books but my brother does, and has listened to/read many of his lectures on books, and I think some of what he says is applicable here. He talks about “magic systems” in fantasy stories being of two types: soft magic, and hard magic. Soft magic means that the specifics and details of the magic aren’t known to the reader, like LOTR. You know there is magic, but it’s never explained how it works. Hard magic would be something like Eragon, where the language and the mechanics of the magic system are described in great detail to the reader. However, from the writer’s perspective, he argues that you must know the system and how it works, regardless of how much you reveal. Essentially, you make rules for yourself, and then you follow those rules. This way you avoid plot contrivances and deus ex machinas. I believe this is true for any story that doesn’t follow the rules of reality, be it fantasy or horror or sci-fi or whatever. Having a plan or rules in place makes it so contradictions don’t occur and so that however unbelievable the premise, the audience stays convinced because nothing contradicts itself. It’s called sustaining the suspension of disbelief. I had a film art teacher that couldn’t stand Jurassic Park. Why? Because everything went fine up until the climax of the film. They set up the rules that, when the T-Rex shows up, it’s very loud, and very noticeable. But in the last scene, he claims that Spielberg wanted to show off his visual effects more than tell a story, so he brought back the T-Rex again, breaking his rules. (In the original book, the raptors fall on the skeleton’s ribs and are killed).
Ultimately, Psab keel is right. Star Wars is not meant to be Lost, or Mission: Impossible III, or Super 8, or anything like that. It’s supposed to be fun space adventures where good conquers evil. You could tell other stories with mystery and the gray moral areas of war in Star Wars, but maybe leave that to the Disney+ shows. The mainstream big blockbuster sequel trilogy shouldn’t really have niche interests in it.
Joek3rr
Master Member
One of things you have to remember about JJ and TFA. Is he was charged with doing a film that's going to have two sequels. And most importantly, he wasn't doing those sequels. So I get the sense that he wanted to keep things as open ended as possible, allowing the next guy have as much freedom as possible.
Joek3rr
Master Member
The differences between ANH and TFA are night and day. With ANH George had to write a film that was largely self contained. Because at that time he didn't know there would be intrest in sequels. He couldn't be open ended. But with TFA, JJ knew that there were going to be sequels. So there's no need to restrict yourself in making such a self contained film, when you know there's going to be follow ups.
You also have to remember that while at its core Star Wars is the films. It's expanded to include novels, comics, reference books, and games. So they are taking bits of the story that they have deemed to be not 100% critical. And put them in those mediums, so those crowds don't feel left out.
It's apparent that he boxed Rian Johnson in with major aspects of TFA so that idea doesn't hold much water. I think once again you're trying to make justifictions to suit bad creative choices. If that works for you then I'm happy for you, but it doesn't sit well with a lot of us. Or you could just be theorizing on the mentality JJ took when making TFA, though I still argue it wasn't the best approach.
Again as more eloquently stated by HMSwolfe as long as the writer knows the answer to said mysteries even if they don't get fully revealed to the audience then that can work because it indicates that there IS an answer. Mystery for its own sake is nothing more than garbage writing because it implies that your audience isn't important enough to give them an answer. We all know JJ doesn't have much interest explaining his mysteries because he often doesn't have answers for them.
For certain stories ambiguity can work but those are better left to actual mystery stories or arthouse films where you can leave the subject matter so open ended that it allows the audience to interpret whatever meaning they choose. Star Wars has never been structured that way.
In a series there will likely be open ends to help the story continue but not so open ended that many of those aspects will likely never get explained. You yourself said you are concerned about 9 because JJ isn't good at concluding his stories.
Last edited:
Joek3rr
Master Member
I'm assuming you mean the films, and not Star Wars in general? Because KOTOR, JK2, and other Star Wars games are built on mystery.
But to say Star Wars had never been structured that way, I believe is incorrect.
The first film had it's mysteries. Sure they weren't as integral to the story as the ones in TFA. But they were there. Like - who's this Emperor dude? What's the Clone Wars? What happened to the Republic?
Then ESB showed us the Emperor and deepened the question of- who's the Emperor dude? Plus, is Vader really Luke's father? And what happened to Vader?.
ROTJ only answered one of those questions. It left the rest to be answered until the PT. And even the PT left us with mysteries. Like- why is there only two Sith? Who's this Plagueis dude? What's with this creating life talk?
So TFA with it's mysteries is nothing new to Star Wars. Now how integral they are to the plot, is different. But that's because we're talking about two different filmmakers and styles.
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
Those aren't really mysteries, though. None of those things need to be solved.
And that's just it. The ST mysteries do seem to affect the story in a major way (we shall see). These other elements you mention from the first film of the OT were ancillary information.
*Disclaimer: I do like the ST, I can totally do without the PT.
I can’t believe I’m doing this but lol...
I truly believe JJ had a plan for the ST. And I believe his mystery’s had answers... let’s not forget JJ wanted to do a Star Wars film since the 90s.. this isn’t something he was just thrown into
But not All things can be answered in a film...there just isn’t enough time
Like the lightsaber floating in space, burning up in the atmosphere and a alien then using it for a barbecue lighter.. (no joke that was one of the first ideas)
It then changed to a clan having the lightsaber and Max trying to get it before the knights of Ren
Again i agree, don’t think that needed to be explained, the lightsaber was found on cloud city and knowing how much money they are worth was taken and sold, passed down, stole or even given as a gift. That doesn’t need to be explained in the film.. here it is in a box to be passed down.. we saw that same exact thing in another film
I 100% believe JJ’s original idea was Rey is Luke’s daughter. Simon Peg pretty much confirmed this.. so leaving her past alone wasn’t a mystery... also believe JJs idea was snoke was plaqueis... too many hints and he mentioned he wanted the ST to tie and connect to the PT.. (but now with RJ doing ep8 I don’t think it’s possible to continue this snoke idea)
And Rey being dropped off on Jakku was petty much answered as well... kylo Ren killed the students in the temple, he killed likes wife and couldn’t bring himself to kill little Rey who wasn’t just his cousin but a good friend.. so he mind erased her and dumped her on jakku.. if you look at the movie it pretty much sums it up...
“WHAT GIRL?!?!?”
“That lightsaber... it belongs to ME!!”
...think about it
I have a very good friend who blames JJ for everything, and though I am a HUGE JJ fan. I do agree his un answered mystery boxes don’t belong in Star Wars..
But I don’t see LOST questions in the ST not being answered.. I see a movie setting up characters and story.. (after it has copied most of the original trilogy’s ideas #reboot)
I do see Rian Johnson being lazy and ignorant. He was given a basic outline from JJ of who, what, when and where for the ST and to run with it
And instead of thinking up answers or flowing JJs idea he did the easiest thing and killed the characters off, or didn’t answer it at all.. gave us more questions really.. multi Rey in a cave? Wtf? More mystery box questions right?
I’m so tired of seeing people blame JJ and his mystery box idea ruining ep8... or the future of the ST. when I clearly don’t see TFA story ruining any of it.. that movie was to set everything up
Again.. I’m a huge JJ mystery box fan, LOST, Super 8, Cloverfield I’m a huge huge fan.. and I’m not defending or my opinion on TFA isn’t compromised Because I’m a fan of JJ..
I have more of a problem with TFA being a complete rip off of the OT then I do it being a giant mystery box..
I know TFA is a reboot, but I really like it. I liked luke pissed off with the world and going into exile. ( I do that on a monthly basis, lol ) I think daisy Ridley is gorgeous and did good job, Boyega did a phenomenal job.. I liked a lot of the stuff involved. We can’t blame JJ for killing off Han. Because ford said he’s only coming back if the character was killed and he never had to do another one.. we all know ford hates Star Wars and is embarrassed of that career move.. which doesn’t make any sense to me because I wonder if ford would be where he was today if he wasn’t in Star Wars?
Remember his acting in American graffiti.. ha
I’m tired of hearing the blame JJ for everything it’s his fault we didn’t get the lightsaber explained, it’s his fault we don’t know who’s Rey’s parents are, it’s his fault snoke is snoke.. it’s all his fault
And I can’t believe I’m agreeing with joker but yeah.. look at the OT... who the hell is emperor?
22 years before that was explained.. BUT did it ever really have to???
Not in the OT time.. here’s the emperor, he’s the big bad guy, so powerful he doesn’t need a lightsaber he shoots lighting out of his hands.. “well who is he?” “It doesn’t matter he’s the bad guy”
...wait a minute is that a 1980s Star Wars mystery box?!
In my eyes, giving rian Johnson total control was a idiot move, and it all comes down to failed leadership
Get KK the hell out of control.. bring in filoni!!! How many pieces of crap are going to be made before they do this.. ep9 will be a joke, Obi film.. we are gonna watch a man meditate in the desert for 19 years? Sounds fun...
Break is over, I gotta get back in the roof. Love ya guys
I truly believe JJ had a plan for the ST. And I believe his mystery’s had answers... let’s not forget JJ wanted to do a Star Wars film since the 90s.. this isn’t something he was just thrown into
But not All things can be answered in a film...there just isn’t enough time
Like the lightsaber floating in space, burning up in the atmosphere and a alien then using it for a barbecue lighter.. (no joke that was one of the first ideas)
It then changed to a clan having the lightsaber and Max trying to get it before the knights of Ren
Again i agree, don’t think that needed to be explained, the lightsaber was found on cloud city and knowing how much money they are worth was taken and sold, passed down, stole or even given as a gift. That doesn’t need to be explained in the film.. here it is in a box to be passed down.. we saw that same exact thing in another film
I 100% believe JJ’s original idea was Rey is Luke’s daughter. Simon Peg pretty much confirmed this.. so leaving her past alone wasn’t a mystery... also believe JJs idea was snoke was plaqueis... too many hints and he mentioned he wanted the ST to tie and connect to the PT.. (but now with RJ doing ep8 I don’t think it’s possible to continue this snoke idea)
And Rey being dropped off on Jakku was petty much answered as well... kylo Ren killed the students in the temple, he killed likes wife and couldn’t bring himself to kill little Rey who wasn’t just his cousin but a good friend.. so he mind erased her and dumped her on jakku.. if you look at the movie it pretty much sums it up...
“WHAT GIRL?!?!?”
“That lightsaber... it belongs to ME!!”
...think about it
I have a very good friend who blames JJ for everything, and though I am a HUGE JJ fan. I do agree his un answered mystery boxes don’t belong in Star Wars..
But I don’t see LOST questions in the ST not being answered.. I see a movie setting up characters and story.. (after it has copied most of the original trilogy’s ideas #reboot)
I do see Rian Johnson being lazy and ignorant. He was given a basic outline from JJ of who, what, when and where for the ST and to run with it
And instead of thinking up answers or flowing JJs idea he did the easiest thing and killed the characters off, or didn’t answer it at all.. gave us more questions really.. multi Rey in a cave? Wtf? More mystery box questions right?
I’m so tired of seeing people blame JJ and his mystery box idea ruining ep8... or the future of the ST. when I clearly don’t see TFA story ruining any of it.. that movie was to set everything up
Again.. I’m a huge JJ mystery box fan, LOST, Super 8, Cloverfield I’m a huge huge fan.. and I’m not defending or my opinion on TFA isn’t compromised Because I’m a fan of JJ..
I have more of a problem with TFA being a complete rip off of the OT then I do it being a giant mystery box..
I know TFA is a reboot, but I really like it. I liked luke pissed off with the world and going into exile. ( I do that on a monthly basis, lol ) I think daisy Ridley is gorgeous and did good job, Boyega did a phenomenal job.. I liked a lot of the stuff involved. We can’t blame JJ for killing off Han. Because ford said he’s only coming back if the character was killed and he never had to do another one.. we all know ford hates Star Wars and is embarrassed of that career move.. which doesn’t make any sense to me because I wonder if ford would be where he was today if he wasn’t in Star Wars?
Remember his acting in American graffiti.. ha
I’m tired of hearing the blame JJ for everything it’s his fault we didn’t get the lightsaber explained, it’s his fault we don’t know who’s Rey’s parents are, it’s his fault snoke is snoke.. it’s all his fault
And I can’t believe I’m agreeing with joker but yeah.. look at the OT... who the hell is emperor?
22 years before that was explained.. BUT did it ever really have to???
Not in the OT time.. here’s the emperor, he’s the big bad guy, so powerful he doesn’t need a lightsaber he shoots lighting out of his hands.. “well who is he?” “It doesn’t matter he’s the bad guy”
...wait a minute is that a 1980s Star Wars mystery box?!
In my eyes, giving rian Johnson total control was a idiot move, and it all comes down to failed leadership
Get KK the hell out of control.. bring in filoni!!! How many pieces of crap are going to be made before they do this.. ep9 will be a joke, Obi film.. we are gonna watch a man meditate in the desert for 19 years? Sounds fun...
Break is over, I gotta get back in the roof. Love ya guys
- Status
Similar threads
