Lets talk all things Star Wars
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Joek3rr
Master Member
So stumbled across some interesting story boards from ROTJ. Was hyperspace ramming first going to make its debut in ROTJ?
Interestingly someone put these on Twitter asking if this is where Rian got his inspiration from. Rian said that while he'd gone through the archive he had never seen these story boards before!
Interestingly someone put these on Twitter asking if this is where Rian got his inspiration from. Rian said that while he'd gone through the archive he had never seen these story boards before!
Of course you cant upstage the old man! 
Obi Wan has spoken and Kylo Ren's lightsaber is not cool.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Yeah seen these before.. I don't think it was meant to be hyperspace but just a standard last ditch kamikaze "I'm taking you with me". The hyperspace thing in TLJ was just a awful broken response to "ah hell we wrote ourselves into a box with our stupid space chase and now the FO has all these huge ships how do we get rid of them so the odds are more even?? Oh I know, one move that magically takes them ALLLLLLL out. Yeeeeaaahhhhh Hyperspace!!". Sure it may be a visually stunning shot, but it reeks of bad writing and opens up a whole plethora of problems for previous installments which is never a good thing for a sequel film to do
This ROTJ story board still actually made it into ROTJ however but the roles were seemingly changed from that of a damaged cruiser and a standard SD to those of an A-wing pilot steering his crippled ship into the unprotected bridge of the SSD and taking it out; probably to be more impactful visually and add a veritable David vs Goliath situation in your film that has drawbacks to real history like the attack by RAF Swordfish pilots which disabled Bismarck's rudder ensuring her eventual destruction. I think its actually a good comparison between the two because the one in ROTJ acts like such a natural event that you almost overlook it with all the other aspects going on in the scene vs what we see in TLJ
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Joek3rr
Master Member
Actually it came from a simple desire to see what it would look like when a ship collides with another while jumping into hyperspace.
Because from what little we've seen hyperspace jump collisions can be devastating. In Legends, the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections book tells of a Republic cruiser that impacted a planet, fracturing it to its core, and rendering it inhospitable. And in canon, the Malevolence vanishes in a violent flash of energy, when it impacts a moon.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Idk man.. the total lack of enemy fighters in the film... the debris from Supremacy/Radis seemingly knocking out ALL the FO SD’s so the resistance/rebels can escape.. it just all seemed so awfully convenient and completely destroyed the believability of the film for me. Again visually stunning, but for me its far more problematic than it is enjoyable
Granted the very end of ROTJ does this to me a bit too slightly in that theres suddenly no SD’s once the SSD goes down but that feels more like missing scenes than it does the entire crux of the film
Also just a note about stuff thats Canon vs stuff thats actually quality writing. As I said in my theory for TROS gameplan where I suspect that the Resistance is going to steal old decommissioned SD’s from some ghost fleet to take on the FO and questioning how on earth the handful of people the Resistance/Rebels have left are able to effectively operate one let alone potentially dozens to hundreds of ships that normally require some 50,000 men each to operate.. I already know full well that there’s a precedent for a “master control system” in the Thrawn stuff, and I still think its an incredibly stupid idea regardless of if its in legends or canon or whatever have you if they use it. Just because it exist already doesn’t automatically make it good
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Joek3rr
Master Member
There's fighters. Poe blasts a bunch at the start of the film. And Ben flies into battle with group of TIEs.
And it's actually not the debris that rips through the fleet. Basically the moment the Raddus impacts the Supremacy it instantly becomes a mass of superheated plasma. Which as I understand it, under any other circumstances would have just dissipated, like the Malevolence. But the Raddus experimental shields remain intact moments longer. Turning that mass of plasma into a widening column intensely magnetized and moving at lightspeed. This is what slices through the fleet. But only about half of it. There's something like a half dozen or so that didn't get destroyed.
Or at least my butchering of the techno mumbo-jumbo
sbaxter
Sr Member
Oh, no argument here. I was defending Lost, not trying to draw overall parallels with Star Wars. And to that end ...
I don't agree that there was no payoff. Pretty much any question of significant consequence is either answered outright, or if not, the answers can be gleaned from everything we were shown. I think there was an overall plan for the series by season three at the latest. Some things had to be altered and redistributed due toi things such as cast members who were playing pivotal characters departing the show (Mr. Eko, anyone?) , and some things were rethought due to other production demands and the writers finding the voices of the characters over time, based on the actors' perfomances. I think it is a little much to ask for seamless consistency and also a little much to build a huge mystery, solved over time, and think the answers would please almost everyone. It feels like JJ Abrams, for many, is just someone who can do no right.
And again, with regard to Star Wars, everyone seems to be presuming that the answers provided by TLJ are set in stone, when there is every possibility they might be altered or outright contradicted, regardless of Rian Johnson's intentions. Otherwise, you'd have to level the same criticism at the OT; Lucas did not intend for Vader to be Luke's father when he made ANH. He outright had Obi-Wan say as much, and it wasn't a lie at the time. Lots of people (including James Earl Jones) apparently presumed Vader was flat-out lying when he said that he was Luke's father and continued to believe that until RotJ rained on that parade (I never doubted it; for whatever reason, it had the ring of truth to me when I heard it in May 1980). So why are we presuming that the answers given by characters in TLJ are the only answers we are going to get when we still have another film -- made by the person who first posed those very questions -- left to see?
I think you can have some gray in the story without it becoming "niche." And while I agree that it is supposed to be a fun space adventure overall, it can't be the same thing all the time, over and over, without stagnating. And when I say "the same thing," I mean in depth and emotional heft, not in the sense of remaking the same three/six stories over and over.
SSB
ConvergencePro
Master Member
I havent watched it in forever but Im pretty sure there’s like maybe 10 fighters in the entirety of the film which I just find insane given the resources the FO supposedly have access to
Also again, if you need 3rd party material in order for your audience to understand things in the film then these things are really problematic
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Joek3rr
Master Member
Well it's explained in the film that they are tardy, and are slow to launch fighters. And probably not enough either. And then the rest of the film it's just plain arrogance. They'd rather make the Resistance's death a slow painful one. When they could easily swarm them with fighters and bombers and destroy them.
If this was Star Trek that would be one thing. But I don't need to film to come to a screeching halt to give me some techno mumbo-jumbo. Heck I figured it out in the movie theater it must have been because of the Raddus's shields.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Sighhhh... Doesn’t Hux literally ask one of his commanders why they cant destroy the resistance to which they give the garbage response that they’re “lighter and faster” and so staying out of range?? (even though basic logic dictates you’d literally just send one SD ahead of the rest to cut them off)
Arrogance isn't a viable excuse for this garbage
Its “things happening because this other thing needs to happen” and nothing else
Also it completely makes Han’s comment "I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships" kinda weird because he sorta makes it sound like a larger military spaceship producing more power would be faster in space and that escaping one of these ships is a very difficult task.. (not including hyperspace here), which kinda plays to what we see in the beginning of ANH with the Devistator running down the Tantive IV.. as well as with what we see with the falcon not being able to outrun the multiple SD’s in ESB until Han pulls his trick
See how this garbage becomes confusing?
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I love Ewan, but he mistakenly also referred to the guard as a hilt, so there's that.
Yeah that made me cringe too. Did you see that because of Ewan's comments they had Obi Wan taunt Kylo Ren in the Battlefront game about his hilt?
sztriki
Sr Member
I saw a video that addressed this sort of stuff as "writing the script for the writer because they couldn't write it". I found it very appropriate.
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
Here's my disclaimer again: It has its issues, but I like the ST, thus far.
None of that info you've included up there is in the movie. There's not even any mention of these experimental shields. I don't think anyone is expecting a full lesson on the "science" of it all in the movie itself, but if the details of the collision and why it was effective in the way that it was are that complex, they shouldn't be left to a supplementary explanation.
That said, personally, I thought it was beautifully done, as far as visuals go.
Frogfreak
Sr Member
A GUY feeling huh?
A GUY feeling huh?
Switched that real quick
Frogfreak
Sr Member
I see that! Haha
Joek3rr
Master Member
"Ren, the Resistance have pulled out of reach. We can't cover you at this distance. Return to the fleet. ......What is the point of all this if we can't blow up three tiny cruisers?"
"They are faster and lighter, sir. They can't lose us but they can keep at a range where our cannons are not effective against their shields."
"Well, keep up the barrage. Let's at least remind them that we're still here."
"Very good sir."
So it's either arrogance or ineptness that Hux doesn't order a swarm of fighters or bombers to attack. Or for them to do a series of micro jumps, to surround the Resistance.
Arrogance and/or ineptness is a common thing you see among the Empire and now the First Order. Most famously Adrimal Ozzel dropped the fleet out of hyperspace too close to Hoth. In defense of the Death Star, the Imperials were not only slow in launching fighters. But they only launched one squad. And when Han was escaping Hoth, none of the 3 Star destroyer's captains chasing him think to use their tractor beams. And the Endor shield bunker detachment don't even ask for identification, they just open the back door and send out reinforcements.
General rule of thumb in Star Wars is smaller and lighter equals faster. And when Han Solo is bragging about out running big Corellian ships. Those aren't that big. Here's some of the biggest ships CEC produces-
Sphyrna-class corvette, 315 meters
CR90 corvette, 150 meters, 81 MGLT, (60 MGLT in Legends), 950 kph(max atmospheric speed)
C-ROC Gozanti-class cruiser, 73.91 meters, 1,200 kph(max atmospheric speed)
Gozanti-class cruiser, 63.8 meters(most likely this is meant to be the ship Han is referring to), 400 kph(max atmospheric speed in Legends)
And for comparison sake
Millennium Falcon, 34.52 meters(34.37 in Legends), 75 MGLT, 1,050 kph (max atmospheric speed)
Imperial I-class, 1,600 meters, 60 MGLT, 965 kph (max atmospheric speed)
So the Falcon can and does out run ISDs. And CR90 can as well. The only reason the Devistator is able to catch the Tantive IV is because they have to shut down the main reactor.
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