Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Psab keel]

The idea that Luke somehow puts his friends in mortal danger in ESB by trying to help them is absurd. They had already been captured before Luke even arrived. Luke was simply trying to help. He didn't make things worse for them by being present. Vader would have held them captive regardless and sent Han off to Boba Fett. Not to mention that despite Yoda and Ben fearing Luke might succumb to temptation and join Vader Luke sacrifices himself rather than give in.

I think you have a very pessimistic view of Luke that is skewed by your unabashed love for The Last Jedi. Is Luke flawed? Yes. That's why he's relatable but I don't think many people viewed Luke the way you do until episode 8 came out. It's the same kind of defense that people use to claim that Empire was so divisive in order to defend The Last Jedi, when in fact it really wasn't. Part of why I hated Luke's portrayal in that movie was Rian's cynical view of the character and it was a tone that permeated the whole film and then by the end he tried to brainwash everyone into thinking everything was hunky dory with everyone smiling after having spent the entire movie mocking everything that made Star Wars stand out from other films in the genre. Which was pretty much a big **** you to the fans. That's why I hate it so much.

 

[BipeFlyer]

RIP Chewie [emoji24]

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I'm just saying. In ESB when Luke meets the source of his fear. The focus of his hate, he doesn't hesitate to draw his lightsaber and attack. Royally failing that test. Then later when he had a vision of his friends suffering, he runs off to "save" them. Ignoring Yoda warning when he tells that if he leaves he will become an agent of evil, just like Vader. And ROTJ when learns that his friends are in very grave danger, and that Endor is trap. He gives into his anger and attempts to kill the Emperor, knowing that if he does he will complete his journey towards the Dark Side. And later when his father threatens to turn his sister to the Dark Side, he lashes out with his rage and attacks his own father. So in TLJ he sees everything he loves is going to be destroyed(including his sister) at the hands of his nephew , he reacts out of fear and anger and contemplates killing his nephew for whopping 15 seconds. Am really the only one who sees a pattern here?

You tried that before. When Luke has the Force vision on Dagobah he didn't know Vader was his father, only that he's a mass murderer. Vader was initially an enemy and the Emperor was an enemy. That's a MASSIVE difference than a nephew who you were with from birth! I also wouldn't call either of those giving in to the Dark Side, he definitely felt the pull, but he wasn't using the Dark Side. That "lapse" of thinking about killing him was so un Jedi like and that's why it comes off as wrong. In ROTS Obi Wan even tried to convince Anakin to turn back before he tries to kill him.

 

[Joek3rr]

The idea that Luke somehow puts his friends in mortal danger in ESB by trying to help them is absurd. They had already been captured before Luke even arrived. Luke was simply trying to help. He didn't make things worse for them by being present. Vader would have held them captive regardless and sent Han off to Boba Fett. Not to mention that despite Yoda and Ben fearing Luke might succumb to temptation and join Vader Luke sacrifices himself rather than give in.

I think you have a very pessimistic view of Luke that is skewed by your unabashed love for The Last Jedi. Is Luke flawed? Yes. That's why he's relatable but I don't think many people viewed Luke the way you do until episode 8 came out. It's the same kind of defense that people use to claim that Empire was so divisive in order to defend The Last Jedi, when in fact it really wasn't. Part of why I hated Luke's portrayal in that movie was Rian's cynical view of the character and it was a tone that permeated the whole film and then by the end he tried to brainwash everyone into thinking everything was hunky dory with everyone smiling after having spent the entire movie mocking everything that made Star Wars stand out from other films in the genre. Which was pretty much a big **** you to the fans. That's why I hate it so much.

Actually no. Luke receives his vision before they have arrived. And what good does Luke do? Does he actually help his friends? No. He made matters worse, just as Yoda said. He learned that Vader was his father, and he started down the path of the Dark Side. A path that will dominate his destiny. And which leads to his struggling with the Dark Side latter. Luke and Anakin, both tend to act on their emotions. Leading them to do things they otherwise shouldn't. As Yoda tells him. "Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could, but destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

 

[Joek3rr]

You tried that before. When Luke has the Force vision on Dagobah he didn't know Vader was his father, only that he's a mass murderer. Vader was initially an enemy and the Emperor was an enemy. That's a MASSIVE difference than a nephew who you were with from birth! I also wouldn't call either of those giving in to the Dark Side, he definitely felt the pull, but he wasn't using the Dark Side. That "lapse" of thinking about killing him was so un Jedi like and that's why it comes off as wrong. In ROTS Obi Wan even tried to convince Anakin to turn back before he tries to kill him.

Irrelevant. My point is that Luke acts, or rather reacts based on his emotions. If those emotions are fear or anger or hate or aggression, those are the Dark Side. No, ifs, or buts about it. Why do you think Luke failed that test on Dagobah. From your point of view, Luke was victorious. But Yoda according to Yoda he failed.

It's a Skywalker trait to act on emotions and to try to prevent certain future events. Let's not forget that Anakin slaughtered a bunch of children. Luke being very briefly tempted to kill Ben, in order to stop an impending massacre, is not only consistent with Luke's character, but also the Skywalker men. "He has too much of his father in him." "That's what I'm afraid of."

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Right. It’s not that Luke’s arrival will put their lives in more danger. It’s about putting what they fought for in danger. And that is defeating the empire. Yoda an Obi know Luke is the key to defeating the empire. The whole point of Vader torturing them is to lure Luke there. Han and Leia would gladly sacrifice themselves in order to keep Luke from the trap. They probably don’t really understand why the empire finds Luke so important at this point but on friendship alone they would sacrificed themselves if they had to. In the end, Luke needed to be rescued and he barely escaped the trap. His training and state of mind probably set him back because he rushed off to save his friends.

 

[Psab keel]

Actually no. Luke receives his vision before they have arrived. And what good does Luke do? Does he actually help his friends? No. He made matters worse, just as Yoda said. He learned that Vader was his father, and he started down the path of the Dark Side. A path that will dominate his destiny. And which leads to his struggling with the Dark Side latter. Luke and Anakin, both tend to act on their emotions. Leading them to do things they otherwise shouldn't. As Yoda tells him. "Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could, but destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

Again it's a pessimistic view. With the revelation that Vader was his father Luke ultimately redeemed Vader in the next film and was victorious.

 

[Joek3rr]

Again it's a pessimistic view. With the revelation that Vader was his father Luke ultimately redeemed Vader in the next film and was victorious.

I don't think it's pessimistic. I'm trying to be factual. And the facts are. Luke let's his emotions control him, those being primarily fear and anger(Dark Side). When he should be in control of his emotions.

I'm probably the only person that feels this way. I've always loved Luke Skywalker(heck my real name is Luke!). After TLJ somehow I found that loved the character of Luke Skywalker even more!

Anywho.....enough of Luke Skywalker......

Anyone getting in on any May the 4th deals?

 

[Bigdaddy]

Everything Luke went through including his perceived failings were learning experiences that contributed to his character's growth. As I said before, people learn from mistakes and gain wisdom from them, that's the entire point of Luke's arc. He rejects the darkside at the end and provides the example to Vader to turn away from it as well. When I disect the logic of the story I end up realizing that Obi and Yoda are the actual failures, consistently offering ambiguous advice, withholding vital information and outright lying. I don't think the intention was to show the Jedi (or Luke) as failures, it's just a result of creating a 3 part story on the fly without cementing the storylines before starting the production. (Completely understandable considering how the film Star Wars got made on a wing and a prayer!)
Luke was written as the hero of the OT, anyone who was introduced to Star Wars before GL announced he was making the prequels knows it. Nobody went to see ROTJ during it's original run and left the theater thinking "wow! Anakin was the REAL hero all along!". GL decided after the fact to try and turn it ALL into Anakin's story with episodes 1-3 but the connections between the trilogies is tenuously written at best, he even went so far to change the original films because he knew they didn't fit together properly. (Still don't fit despite the changes to the SEOT)

People that grew up on the prequels might view Anakin more sympathetically and see him as a hero, I know my kid did when she was younger (at 16 she detests the prequels now) Films are art and art is mostly subjective (other than perhaps technical aspects) so for younger people that haven't reached a point in their lives to mature enough to understand that, it might seem like there is a "right" and "wrong" way to veiw Star Wars (art). In actuality these are all opinions about a fictional universe that has zero impact on the real world around us.
I doubt anyone here really believes OT Luke was prone to murder (especially if you choose him as your avatar!) hyperbolic statements like that tend to make me dismiss posts and don't add to an intellectual conversation. I'd hate to have to use the ignore feature over TLJ yet again.
Ironically I work with 2 apprentices that are SW fans in their 20s, we talk about SW all the time without anyone getting riled up about it. Yes, I refer to them as padawans constantly on the job site.

 

[Joek3rr]

Everything Luke went through including his perceived failings were learning experiences that contributed to his character's growth. As I said before, people learn from mistakes and gain wisdom from them, that's the entire point of Luke's arc. He rejects the darkside at the end and provides the example to Vader to turn away from it as well. When I disect the logic of the story I end up realizing that Obi and Yoda are the actual failures, consistently offering ambiguous advice, withholding vital information and outright lying. I don't think the intention was to show the Jedi (or Luke) as failures, it's just a result of creating a 3 part story on the fly without cementing the storylines before starting the production. (Completely understandable considering how the film Star Wars got made on a wing and a prayer!)
Luke was written as the hero of the OT, anyone who was introduced to Star Wars before GL announced he was making the prequels knows it. Nobody went to see ROTJ during it's original run and left the theater thinking "wow! Anakin was the REAL hero all along!". GL decided after the fact to try and turn it ALL into Anakin's story with episodes 1-3 but the connections between the trilogies is tenuously written at best, he even went so far to change the original films because he knew they didn't fit together properly. (Still don't fit despite the changes to the SEOT)

People that grew up on the prequels might view Anakin more sympathetically and see him as a hero, I know my kid did when she was younger (at 16 she detests the prequels now) Films are art and art is mostly subjective (other than perhaps technical aspects) so for younger people that haven't reached a point in their lives to mature enough to understand that, it might seem like there is a "right" and "wrong" way to veiw Star Wars (art). In actuality these are all opinions about a fictional universe that has zero impact on the real world around us.
I doubt anyone here really believes OT Luke was prone to murder (especially if you choose him as your avatar!) hyperbolic statements like that tend to make me dismiss posts and don't add to an intellectual conversation. I'd hate to have to use the ignore feature over TLJ yet again.
Ironically I work with 2 apprentices that are SW fans in their 20s, we talk about SW all the time without anyone getting riled up about it. Yes, I refer to them as padawans constantly on the job site.

I for one never thought Luke would ever be capable of murder, not until TLJ..... but then I began to look at Luke, and realize that he was indeed capable of murder. And that he almost did commit murder(or possibly did already, but I'm not going there right now).

That's why love both the PT and ST. Both alow us to see things about the OT, that we would other wise not. The two trilogies are like lenses which to view the OT with.

As I just said, prior to TLJ I would have never thought Luke would murder a family member. But then I realized that Luke considers murdering his father! 'But Joek3rr' you say 'Vader was a evil monster! Not a innocent sleeping young man. It's totally different!' But Luke isn't considering killing his father over things he has done, he's forgiven him for his past sins. He's about to kill him for what he's threatening to do. Luke Skywalker was very much tempted to kill his own father over future sins, he had yet to commit. That's murder, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how deserving Vader is of death. What words of wisdom did Gandalf impart? "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

But that is one of the reasons Luke is such an amazing hero. He makes mistakes, he fails, sometimes spectacularly. He gets torn down, but he's never down for the count. He always overcomes his vices, he always rises up. Luke puts his Dark Side in its place. Now some might think 'exactly in ROTJ he did all that.' But the Dark Side isn't a one and done thing. It's something Luke will always have. It's something that he would have to deal with on daily basis.




Anyways I just want to take a moment and thank everyone for putting up with my crazy antics. I know we don't all see eye to eye. I love so much, taking deep dives into mythos of Star Wars.

 

[Darth Fetty]

As I just said, prior to TLJ I would have never thought Luke would murder a family member. But then I realized that Luke considers murdering his father! 'But Joek3rr' you say 'Vader was a evil monster! Not a innocent sleeping young man. It's totally different!' But Luke isn't considering killing his father over things he has done, he's forgiven him for his past sins. He's about to kill him for what he's threatening to do.

Vader was a dangerous mass murderer who has killed or taken part in the killings of billions of people including blowing up a planet. He was directly and openly threatening Luke's sister.

Kylo was Luke's sleeping nephew who hadn't committed any crime before.

I think there's a major difference in context.

 

[Bigdaddy]

"Do or do not, there is no try."
~Yoda
Really poor advice from a teacher!

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
~Obi wan Kenobi
Kind of sounds like he's describing Yoda!

I never needed a lense to veiw the OT through, it's a really simple and easy to follow story. It only gets complicated when you try to include material that's not originally part of the story. This isn't some ancient mythology with hidden meanings, that's just fanfiction. Star Wars is nothing more than the imaginings of a young film maker and his hippy buddies. The simplicity of the story is one big reason why the OT has stood the test of time.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Irrelevant. My point is that Luke acts, or rather reacts based on his emotions. If those emotions are fear or anger or hate or aggression, those are the Dark Side. No, ifs, or buts about it. Why do you think Luke failed that test on Dagobah. From your point of view, Luke was victorious. But Yoda according to Yoda he failed.

It's a Skywalker trait to act on emotions and to try to prevent certain future events. Let's not forget that Anakin slaughtered a bunch of children. Luke being very briefly tempted to kill Ben, in order to stop an impending massacre, is not only consistent with Luke's character, but also the Skywalker men. "He has too much of his father in him." "That's what I'm afraid of."

I'm not talking about Luke's Dagobah vision being a victory. I'm saying at that time he saw Vader as an enemy and that is why he attacked. How is someone being family irrelevant?! I'm pretty sure that if you're going to kill someone, you're more likely to not kill a family member you love... I agree he acted on emotion, but it was against enemies. There's a big difference between immediately trying to kill and enemy and cutting your nephew in half! Not to mention that a young Jedi doing that doesn't mean an older wiser Jedi will. That whole scene was to show that he wasn't fully trained to go off and face Vader.

 

[Dontdissthefett]

I always was bothered by Obi-Wan saying “Only a Sith deals in absolutes” because it is an absolute in and of itself.

 

[Joek3rr]

I'm not talking about Luke's Dagobah vision being a victory. I'm saying at that time he saw Vader as an enemy and that is why he attacked. How is someone being family irrelevant?! I'm pretty sure that if you're going to kill someone, you're more likely to not kill a family member you love... I agree he acted on emotion, but it was against enemies. There's a big difference between immediately trying to kill and enemy and cutting your nephew in half! Not to mention that a young Jedi doing that doesn't mean an older wiser Jedi will. That whole scene was to show that he wasn't fully trained to go off and face Vader.

Question for you. Why was what Luke did in the Dark Side cave a failure?

 

[Joek3rr]

Vader was a dangerous mass murderer who has killed or taken part in the killings of billions of people including blowing up a planet. He was directly and openly threatening Luke's sister.

Kylo was Luke's sleeping nephew who hadn't committed any crime before.

I think there's a major difference in context.

What Vader did prior to that point is irrelevant. Luke has looked passed what his father has done. His actions suggest that he's forgiven his father for those sins. Luke declares that he's willing to die for his father. He tells him twice that he will not fight him. Yet when Vader merely suggests that his sister might turn to the Dark Side. Luke loses it. He flys into rage driving his father in retreat. And when his father has fallen to the ground, he continues to attack, until he's removed his hand. Now he holds his father at saber point ready to kill him. It's only the Emperor's applauding that snaps Luke back to his senses.

 

[Darth Fetty]

What Vader did prior to that point is irrelevant. Luke has looked passed what his father has done. His actions suggest that he's forgiven his father for those sins. Luke declares that he's willing to die for his father. He tells him twice that he will not fight him. Yet when Vader merely suggests that his sister might turn to the Dark Side. Luke loses it. He flys into rage driving his father in retreat. And when his father has fallen to the ground, he continues to attack, until he's removed his hand. Now he holds his father at saber point ready to kill him. It's only the Emperor's applauding that snaps Luke back to his senses.

Of course it's relevant. To forgive doesn't mean to forget. If Luke forgot who he was dealing with, that would be incredibly dumb on his part. He knew he was risking his life to save his father, which is part of what made him such a hero. When the mass murderer threatens his sister, yeah, he's going to lose control because he knows what this man is capable of despite whatever he may have forgiven.

This aspect of Luke knowingly risking his life to save his father really had a huge impact on me growing up, and I was not aware of how big of an impact it was until seeing TLJ's complete lack of awareness of this being a major part of what made Luke a hero. I have to give TLJ credit in that it made me appreciate ROTJ more as an excellent conclusion to Luke's story.

 

[Joek3rr]

Happy May the 4th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bigdaddy]

This morning on our DHA (daily hazard analysis) report my foreman listed " be one with the Force" under the hazard mitigation section.
Happy Star Wars day!

 

[Laspector]

Well Phooey!! Seems I am completely unable to watch ANH anymore and just appreciate it for what it is................All I hear now are Family Guy jokes!