Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Joek3rr]

I get what you're saying and I agree to a point but you see how the line is blurred now?

Yeah, a little bit. But it doesn't bother me...... yet

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Obi-Wan barely rustling a few vines, I just rewatched that scene, is not the same thing as summoning lightning to burn down a giant tree or smacking Luke on the forehead with a cane. It wouldn't surprise me if they took that idea further and started having ghosts do even dumber things. Which again, begs the question, if they are capable of interacting with the land of the living in that way, why wouldn't they intercede to help their friends? I don't have a problem with them walking on the ground as its a practical issue of shooting a scene with two characters in the frame rather than having to suspend one character on wires or something. Come to think of it what if they tried to pick something up and their hand passed right through it, reminding the audience that they are in fact dead?

I can suspend my disbelief but there has to be a line otherwise I'm watching a cartoon.

It's like Ben said, (quote may not be exactly right) If you face Vader, I cannot help you.

Remember that the light and the dark are not good vs evil. It is balance vs imbalance. In the world of the living, it is up to the living to fight for that balance. Touching things is not issue. The interactions they have are means to offer guidance, not to force a course of action. Yoda and Ben are visible to Luke because Yoda and Ben are keeping true to that balance. They can't do anything more if they wanted to because that would go against the balance and therefore they would not exist.

That's the Star Warsie answer.

Here is the story telling answer. You see it everywhere in religious stories, mythology, folklore, Shakespeare, etc... Star Wars is not sci fiction, it is fantasy so elements of spirits and ghosts fall into Star Wars which is just a mythological story. In the case of Luke, the lose of Ben then turns the focus on Luke to lead on his journey rather to follow. We are dealing with the same thing now with Rey. Rey is now on her hero journey and Luke needs to be out of the equation or else it would blur the focus of the story. Luke will no doubt offer her words of wisdom but she will be left to make her own decisions and for her to rely on her own abilities.

 

[Psab keel]

I understand the idea behind the loss of the guide in the heroes journey is to put the focus on the protagonist and ensure that they must rise to face their destiny on their own.

I have my issues with Rey and her relationship to Luke and the hero cycle but I'm not going to retread that whole thing again. Suffice it to say I get what you're saying though.

Though I disagree with your notion that light and dark not being good and evil. The whole balance of the Force nonsense just complicates the matter. Balance would imply that light and dark could coexist peaceably. They can't. Otherwise we wouldn't have a story. The way the stories have always gone in the films, balance means the light side wins, which is not balance at all.

Light and dark are diametrically opposed to one another and this is the eternal conflict in storytelling. Moral ambiguity can exist to a point but Star Wars was never too concerned with that.

 

[Joek3rr]

I understand the idea behind the loss of the guide in the heroes journey is to put the focus on the protagonist and ensure that they must rise to face their destiny on their own.

I have my issues with Rey and her relationship to Luke and the hero cycle but I'm not going to retread that whole thing again. Suffice it to say I get what you're saying though.

Though I disagree with your notion that light and dark not being good and evil. The whole balance of the Force nonsense just complicates the matter. Balance would imply that light and dark could coexist peaceably. They can't. Otherwise we wouldn't have a story. The way the stories have always gone in the films, balance means the light side wins, which is not balance at all.

Light and dark are diametrically opposed to one another and this is the eternal conflict in storytelling. Moral ambiguity can exist to a point but Star Wars was never too concerned with that.

I don't claim to understand what George meant, when he introduced the idea of the balance of the Force. I only know this. The Mortis arc from The Clone Wars is the key to understanding. It's there we are first introduced to Star Wars version of the Yin Yang

This symbol tells alot. Notice how the center is made up of the symbols for the Light Side

and the Dark Side

Notice how each symbol, has a bit of the other in it? But on the Mortis symbol they are even, balanced.

Which brings me to my favorite piece of fan art

 

[Potroclo]

Storytelling/narrative tools =/= In-universe/lore logic anyways and Star Wars is ultimately a series of films, the lore behind it, be it canon, EU, legends or whatever is a byproduct and constructed from the former, not the other way around. If SW had been a series of novels that met great success then be adapted to the screen I would agree with all the failures, or plot-holes pointed, literature tends to be more precise in this point and so are its adaptations. I guess somehow if it's written black on white it has to make sense because it's easier to check, you just go back a couple pages. But a film is consumed with a schedule, and you're ridden of the mental exercise of constructing the visuals, so it dwelves more in emotions and reactions in the moment, so it allows for some "plot-holes". In some way it's the other way around, you build the narrative from the visuals (and sound and music etc) but you don't get to check it because the film is running. And yes, since vhs became available you can check an re-check, but film is ultimatelly made for the first screening, like food you can have a second helping or more, but these depend on it being good the first time you taste it...
So, although I find this movie/lore comparisons interesting, I find them pointless. I assumed this thread was about the lore OR about the films, and yes they are permeable, but drawing too much meaning from the comparison I think just breaks the suspension of disbelief. It's like those people who don't enjoy SW from the get go because there's no sound in space... Man we can talk science all you want, I love talking about science, but this is film, entertainment, fantasy, a getaway. Mix them both too much and you don't get to enjoy any of the two.

 

[Psab keel]

I'm only interested in the films. All ancillary material is just filler and one could argue the validity of it in context to the movies but again, I'm really only concerned with the movies.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I can tell you, as far as interacting with the physical world, Obi-Wan was following a deliberate timeline George had sketched out -- but then abandoned during re-writes of ROTJ. He went from disembodied voice to hazy and distant figure to close and distinct -- but still largely static -- figure to walking around and moving vines aside and sitting on a log (people seem to have forgotten that part). It was intended that, in the final confrontation, he crossed back over to the corporeal to help fight Vader and the Emperor. Real-world, Lucas felt it undercut Luke's achievements. In-universe, I like to think Vader's and Palpatine's Dark-Side miasmas were strong enough Obi-Wan couldn't get through to help Luke in those fights.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I still don't know why people don't get the Force balance thing. Lucas has said exactly what it means, yet no one listens. It's not ying/yang, it's a complete absence of Dark Side influence on the galaxy. That doesn't mean there isn't any Dark Side users alive, just that the Dark Side doesn't hold sway over the galaxy. It's a Jedi prophecy, so it's what the Jedi believe, not actual balance as we define it. Balance is the Light Side having influence over the Force.

Here's something I want to know, when you see the Republic Gunships, the clone troopers are just sitting or standing in it without any visible restraints other than maybe handrails on the ceiling. Has anyone heard about whether there is some kind of tech that restrains them, maybe by magnetically holding their armor or something? I ask because when they first arrive to rescue the Jedi in the arena, Yoda's gunship has four clone troopers sitting firing their rifles, and at least one firing his rifle while standing, so they are clearly not holding onto anything.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Though I disagree with your notion that light and dark not being good and evil. The whole balance of the Force nonsense just complicates the matter. Balance would imply that light and dark could coexist peaceably. They can't. Otherwise we wouldn't have a story. The way the stories have always gone in the films, balance means the light side wins, which is not balance at all.

Light and dark are diametrically opposed to one another and this is the eternal conflict in storytelling. Moral ambiguity can exist to a point but Star Wars was never too concerned with that.

To me and the way I see it illustrated through the films is that Balance is everything. I feel the same as you that light and dark together do not form the balance. To me, the balance is the Force working naturally. The natural force can be beautiful, like sunsets, flowers, and baby porgs. But it can also be ugly like super novas, and disease and death. These are not good and evil, they are simply the order of things. The light side and what the Jedi stand for is keeping that balance aka, letting the Force take its course and using their Force abilities to prevent other from tampering with it. It is when the Force is utilized to serve an ulterior purpose is when it becomes unbalanced and you move into the dark side. Imbalance is not just what we tend to identify as Evil like killing, or taking over a government through deception, or blowing up planets... It's also using it for what you might feel is a greater good. This is why I believe the Jedi in the prequels did not see the return of the Sith and why the Jedi ability to control the Force had lessened. The Jedi got to intertwined in the political aspect. Their intentions were to do good but their use of the Force was not in tune to the natural flow of the Force.

It's like when Yoda told Luke that a Jedi must used the for defense and never for attack.

You might ask, But why can't I...?

There is no why.

At least that is the way I see it.

 

[Joek3rr]

I still don't know why people don't get the Force balance thing. Lucas has said exactly what it means, yet no one listens. It's not ying/yang, it's a complete absence of Dark Side influence on the galaxy. That doesn't mean there isn't any Dark Side users alive, just that the Dark Side doesn't hold sway over the galaxy. It's a Jedi prophecy, so it's what the Jedi believe, not actual balance as we define it. Balance is the Light Side having influence over the Force.

Any chance you have a source for that? Because everything George showed about balance in the Mortis arc contradicts what you've said. So I'm curious where you heard that at.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Here's something I want to know, when you see the Republic Gunships, the clone troopers are just sitting or standing in it without any visible restraints other than maybe handrails on the ceiling. Has anyone heard about whether there is some kind of tech that restrains them, maybe by magnetically holding their armor or something? I ask because when they first arrive to rescue the Jedi in the arena, Yoda's gunship has four clone troopers sitting firing their rifles, and at least one firing his rifle while standing, so they are clearly not holding onto anything.

Maybe that's what they meant by "balance" in the Force.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Any chance you have a source for that? Because everything George showed about balance in the Mortis arc contradicts what you've said. So I'm curious where you heard that at.

But the three of them died, so they couldn't really be light, dark, and balance simply their own interpretation.

 

[BipeFlyer]

Here's George Lucas explaining the force.

 

[Psab keel]

George's idea of balance actually makes no sense to me then. If using the Force is throwing everything out of whack then why bother telling a story where people even have a knowledge of it, much less mastery over it? It takes a simple idea and makes it more complex than it needs to be.

Wouldn't "balance" be more akin to peace between the factions? I mean sure the force is made up of living beings, but we're not interested in stories about trees, rocks, supernovas and other natural phenomena. The real story is about people and their conflicts with each other, not even like the myths of old where a hero sometimes would do battle with the forces of nature and not a person. Though balance in that sense would mean the end of the story because you need to have a war in a story called Star Wars.

Again I think some of those ideas are interesting as concepts but if they aren't related directly to the characters and are just esoteric ideas only vaguely hinted at and are too open ended to be clearly defined then we are talking into a void. How often do these thing end up in the finished film? Very little of it does because you can't keep the pace bogged down in exposition.

Plus it also goes back to my earlier point that the definitions of these things are constantly changing to suit whoever is coming up with the story. Even George could never make up his mind about it.

 

[Joek3rr]

But the three of them died, so they couldn't really be light, dark, and balance simply their own interpretation.

They are described as embodiments of the Force.

Daughter
Father
Son

"Overlords" Episode Guide - The Clone Wars | StarWars.com
"Altar of Mortis" Episode Guide - The Clone Wars | StarWars.com
"Ghosts of Mortis" Episode Guide - The Clone Wars | StarWars.com

Everything in the Mortis arc points to the same thing.....

Light -> Balance <- Dark

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

They are described as embodiments of the Force.

Daughter
Father
Son

"Overlords" Episode Guide - The Clone Wars | StarWars.com
"Altar of Mortis" Episode Guide - The Clone Wars | StarWars.com
"Ghosts of Mortis" Episode Guide - The Clone Wars | StarWars.com

Everything in the Mortis arc points to the same thing.....

Light -> Balance <- Dark

Would you agree that this is the basic story:

During the Clone Wars, the Father drew Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Ahsoka Tanointo the realm.[6] The Father realized that Skywalker was the Chosen One, and that he could maintain the balance of the Force between the two children once the Father died.[3] This led to a struggle between the Force wielders and the three Jedi, culminating in the deaths of all three wielders and the restoration of balance on Mortis.[5]

 

[Joek3rr]

Would you agree that this is the basic story:

During the Clone Wars, the Father drew Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Ahsoka Tanointo the realm.[6] The Father realized that Skywalker was the Chosen One, and that he could maintain the balance of the Force between the two children once the Father died.[3] This led to a struggle between the Force wielders and the three Jedi, culminating in the deaths of all three wielders and the restoration of balance on Mortis.[5]

Yep yep

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Ok then.

So my take away is; you don’t need beings to embody light, dark, and balance in the first place since when their existence ends, that itself results in the restoration of balance. Then what’s the point? Why have all those influences. It’s like you want a 6ft tall man to look 6ft tall so they dig a 4ft trench for him to stand in and then give him 4ft tall stilts. It’s a lot of forces working that just don’t need to be there.

Also I would argue that Mortis and those three force weilders did not reflect the rest of the galaxy because the balance of Mortis did not achieve balance for the rest of the galaxy.

 

[Psab keel]

Having a physical embodiment of the Force turns it from a mystical energy field into a deity of some kind. Two totally different ideas.

This is exactly what I've been talking about regarding establishing boundaries and rules that your story takes place in. You can occasionally bend those rules but you have to be careful. If you keep rewriting the rules then the inconsistencies aren't just glaring, they actually detract from your story because your audience is being told contradictory information all the time.

I still don't know why people don't get the Force balance thing. Lucas has said exactly what it means, yet no one listens. It's not ying/yang, it's a complete absence of Dark Side influence on the galaxy. That doesn't mean there isn't any Dark Side users alive, just that the Dark Side doesn't hold sway over the galaxy. It's a Jedi prophecy, so it's what the Jedi believe, not actual balance as we define it. Balance is the Light Side having influence over the Force.

The Force is an energy field made up of Light and Dark. They are two sides of the same thing. The conflict arises because the two sides are at war with one another. Lucas is then misusing the word balance. If it was actually balance, then the two sides would be able to exist in some form of harmony and yet they obviously can't. Having either side over power the other by definition means it's off balance. The Light Side holding sway over the galaxy isn't balance. His idea contradicts itself. It's one or the other. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Joek3rr]

Ok then.

So my take away is; you don’t need beings to embody light, dark, and balance in the first place since when their existence ends, that itself results in the restoration of balance. Then what’s the point? Why have all those influences. It’s like you want a 6ft tall man to look 6ft tall so they dig a 4ft trench for him to stand in and then give him 4ft tall stilts. It’s a lot of forces working that just don’t need to be there.

Also I would argue that Mortis and those three force weilders did not reflect the rest of the galaxy because the balance of Mortis did not achieve balance for the rest of the galaxy.

That's why I said awhile back I don't claim to understand this. Is anything that happened on Mortis even real? Dave keeps saying it's metaphorical.....George refers to the Force weilders as Force gods.......so who knows what supposed to be actually going on. The only thing I know, is that this is that George is giving us a glimpse at what Balance in the Force really means. I think