Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Kovnyn]

In season 6 of the clone wars, Yoda went through to complete the training of becoming a true luminous being with the force. Obi Wan studied the technique during his exile on Tatooine, which was what Yoda was referring to at the end of EP III. Qui Gonn had begun to study it, but wasn't able to complete it, which is why he could not create a visual representation of himself, only project his voice on a limited basis. Qui Gonn taught Obi Wan the technique, so when he died on the DS, it was a simple task to transfer his essence into the Force.

It remains a mystery how Anakin learned the technique.

I'm not sure what George's intention was when he wrote the OT versus the PT. I remember being confused about Qui Gonn's death in EP I.

Though, we never did see Anakin fade away after death, he appeared as a Force Ghost. And if the rumors are true about Anakin appearing in EP IX (HC is apparently attending Celebration this year), we may get an answer. Or JJ might just make up his own canon again, contrary to established canon.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

In season 6 of the clone wars, Yoda went through to complete the training of becoming a true luminous being with the force. Obi Wan studied the technique during his exile on Tatooine, which was what Yoda was referring to at the end of EP III. Qui Gonn had begun to study it, but wasn't able to complete it, which is why he could not create a visual representation of himself, only project his voice on a limited basis. Qui Gonn taught Obi Wan the technique, so when he died on the DS, it was a simple task to transfer his essence into the Force.

It remains a mystery how Anakin learned the technique.

I'm not sure what George's intention was when he wrote the OT versus the PT. I remember being confused about Qui Gonn's death in EP I.

Though, we never did see Anakin fade away after death, he appeared as a Force Ghost. And if the rumors are true about Anakin appearing in EP IX (HC is apparently attending Celebration this year), we may get an answer. Or JJ might just make up his own canon again, contrary to established canon.

I think you and I are on the same page with this.

 

[sztriki]

I just looked in my original hardcover novelization and here is how it is described.View attachment 1002238View attachment 1002239

Every time I see anything from that book I become Colonel Kurtz with vacant eyes mumbling “the horror...”. I simply cannot believe how badly written it is.

 

[Psab keel]

Considering how often they change the rules in this universe to suit whatever story idea they have I never gave too much thought to the Jedi retaining their bodies albeit in ghost form up until TLJ.

I take issue with them being able to influence the physical/ living world because then it begs the question of why they don't intercede on the behalf of the living characters when they are in danger? It undoes the tension of their deaths and with no barriers to their passing why bother having them die in the first place?

Too often these interesting concepts get ret conned because it will inhibit a writers ability to use xyz character/ setting etc, rather than coming up with a better scenario that brings the story forward without violating those rules. Obi-Wan and Anakin using Carbonite freezing to stow away in an episode of the Clone Wars comes to mind. It undoes the danger of Han surviving the freezing process in Empire.

If they constantly undercut certain rules then why bother having said rules in the first place? You can only do that so much before the audiences suspension of disbelief is totally dissolved and we no longer care if they live or die because it can be explained away.

It's the God in the machine problem and it can insult the intelligence of the viewer.

 

[Bigdaddy]

All the force ghost inconsistencies are usually refered to as plot holes. Unless we're discussing Star Wars, then we must bend story logic in any direction needed to "make it work".

 

[Kovnyn]

The Clone Wars was bad about using suspenseful or dangerous things from the OT as plot point. The Carbon Freezing trick to infiltrate the Citadel is a perfect example, as Psab said.

I've watched the Clone Wars start to finish a few times on Netflix over the years, and while it's often considered to be great, there are some eye rolling moments, like that.

 

[dascoyne]

In season 6 of the clone wars, Yoda went through to complete the training of becoming a true luminous being with the force. Obi Wan studied the technique during his exile on Tatooine, which was what Yoda was referring to at the end of EP III. Qui Gonn had begun to study it, but wasn't able to complete it, which is why he could not create a visual representation of himself, only project his voice on a limited basis. Qui Gonn taught Obi Wan the technique, so when he died on the DS, it was a simple task to transfer his essence into the Force.

It remains a mystery how Anakin learned the technique.

To reach the final level you must know without knowing. It is then you become luminous.

 

[Psab keel]

Rather than think things through it seems it's easier for most writers to just recycle the same ideas even if it means changing their meaning.

This is why fans get so bent out of shape about changes to the story. It's not because we are opposed to change, it's that it's inconsistent with what had been previously established. Instead of building on those same ideas they choose to alter them to suit their needs and often exchange story progression for cheap gimmicks in the guise of being clever. Constant self reference isn't clever. Its cheap writing. Besides, you can't change the rules of the game halfway through and expect people to still want to play.

 

[CutThumb]

Rather than think things through it seems it's easier for most writers to just recycle the same ideas even if it means changing their meaning.

This is why fans get so bent out of shape about changes to the story. It's not because we are opposed to change, it's that it's inconsistent with what had been previously established. Instead of building on those same ideas they choose to alter them to suit their needs and often exchange story progression for cheap gimmicks in the guise of being clever. Constant self reference isn't clever. Its cheap writing. Besides, you can't change the rules of the game halfway through and expect people to still want to play.

This. this more than anything else REALLY ******* annoys me when it comes to a sci fi/ fantasy series. Some new idiot comes along and,because its a sci fi/ fantasy series assumes that it simply DOESN'T MATTER what they change within that universe because its "sci fi / fantasy" and rules and continuity don't apply.

What they utterly fail to take into account is the reason it may be so well liked as a series is because the original establishing rules as to how the characters and the universe they move in operate strike a cord of appreciation with people who like them.

Some of the latest SW movies/ ST : Discovery are prime examples of this, just chuck away many of the elements that made them strong and interesting, because, hey, what we want to do won't work unless we change it.

Which is why I have a huge amount of respect for series like the MCU, OTSW, "The Expanse", most of the older Star Trek series, the first Harry Potter films ,the BTTF trilogy etc. They make sense to an audience and to each other.

And its also why the first two Alien/Terminator movies are just pure gold and everything after them, well, not even rusty iron.

 

[Joek3rr]

I feel that Obi Wan surrendered himself body and soul to the Force before Vader's blade struck. If Vader's blade had struck, then there would be a body. Vader seemed surprised at the lack of a body using his foot to double check. This would have been a surprise to Vader as he most likely did not know anything about what Qui Gonn ability to communicate after death and at the time only Ben and Yoda would have known. It also would probably have been the first time (at least in recent Jedi history) a Jedi disappeared in this way.

I would also have to believe that in the case of Yoda and Luke, they utilized the last bit of their life to surrender to the Force before actual death.

I think over the years, especially for those of us who only knew the OT, we had made an assumption that Jedi just vanish when they die. Sort of like how vampires in the Buffy verse turn to ash when they die. Also back then, we did not know that Ben's ability to communicate with Luke was something that was rare. We assumed as a Jedi, when you die, it was a natural thing. However it would seem that in order to that, you would need some sort of training or skill prior... for the most part.

Qui Gonn is interesting... What was so special about him? I sort of feel he was at the time, the truest of Jedi, not the most powerful but the one who was the greatest follower in the Force and the Jedi Way and not entangled in the political agenda of the council which I believe was the primary factor of what caused the imbalance in the Force in the first place. I think he was strong enough that even after death, he was able to communicate with the living. Was it limited? Could he be seen as a ghost? I don't know.

Did Qui tap into a lost ability? Was it something that Jedi were able to do in the past but over generations became a lost ability due to imbalance? Also is this ability limited? In the old EU, Ben appeared at the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy and spoke to Luke explaining that his communication would be his last as his abilities to appear to him were at an end. That would explain why you don't have 1000s of ancient Jedi ghosts wandering around.

Anakin's ghost appearance at the end of ROTJ is just odd (no matter what age he looks). He had no training or was probably even aware of the ability. I could only conclude that his appearance was assisted by Ben and/or Yoda as a one time thing to show Luke that he did succeed in returning Anakin from the dark side.

Its interesting, if Vader didn't actually "kill" Obi-Wan. Then I wonder why Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke? Luke certainly believes Vader killed Obi-Wan.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

"You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Vader struck him down. Obi-Wan was prepared--he goaded Vader into doing it, and allowed it to happen, but he didn't just vanish/become one with the Force at will.

 

[Joek3rr]

"You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Vader struck him down. Obi-Wan was prepared--he goaded Vader into doing it, and allowed it to happen, but he didn't just vanish/become one with the Force at will.

I'm thinking that's what happened. I don't how legit this is, "Vader brings his sword down, cutting old Ben in half." Star Wars: A New Hope Script at IMSDb.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Its interesting, if Vader didn't actually "kill" Obi-Wan. Then I wonder why Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke? Luke certainly believes Vader killed Obi-Wan.

Maybe he did, Maybe Yoda told him. Maybe Luke figured it out on his own. In the end, it doesn’t really matter because Ben’s death was not a motivating factor for Luke to drive him through the story. At no point in the rest of the trilogy did you hear Luke express anger at Vader for killing Ben or use it a reason to confront him. If anything, his willingness to engage Vader in The Empire Strikes Back is motivation by his father’s death.

The point is that Ben sacrificed himself for the sake of Luke. I believe that at some point Luke understood that. So wether or not a blade touched him really doesn’t make a difference. At the very most, Luke might be upset that Ben had to in the first place but still it does not really drive him.

In an original draft of Return of the Jedi, Luke’s final confrontation with Vader was going to take place on a lava planet and Ben was going to reappear in the flesh to take on Vader.

 

[Joek3rr]

I take issue with them being able to influence the physical/ living world because then it begs the question of why they don't intercede on the behalf of the living characters when they are in danger? It undoes the tension of their deaths and with no barriers to their passing why bother having them die in the first place?

People seem to forget that Obi-Wan moved vines out of his way while walking, and stepped on grass. So a Force ghost's ability to interact with the physical world goes back to RTOJ.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Considering how often they change the rules in this universe to suit whatever story idea they have I never gave too much thought to the Jedi retaining their bodies albeit in ghost form up until TLJ.

I take issue with them being able to influence the physical/ living world because then it begs the question of why they don't intercede on the behalf of the living characters when they are in danger? It undoes the tension of their deaths and with no barriers to their passing why bother having them die in the first place?

Too often these interesting concepts get ret conned because it will inhibit a writers ability to use xyz character/ setting etc, rather than coming up with a better scenario that brings the story forward without violating those rules. Obi-Wan and Anakin using Carbonite freezing to stow away in an episode of the Clone Wars comes to mind. It undoes the danger of Han surviving the freezing process in Empire.

If they constantly undercut certain rules then why bother having said rules in the first place? You can only do that so much before the audiences suspension of disbelief is totally dissolved and we no longer care if they live or die because it can be explained away.

It's the God in the machine problem and it can insult the intelligence of the viewer.

A force ghost is there for guidance. We have to believe that a force ghost is limited to what they are allowed to do in order to not disrupt the balance they are trying to protect/achieve.

I don’t even know if a force ghost could show up, be seen, be affected to just anyone. Does the ghost need to have an emotional connection to that person? does that person also need to be trained in the ways of the force? Does that ghost have to be someone who is at balance with the force and that’s why you don’t see Sith ghosts?

I think most of what we see with Ghosts are consistent and carefully utilized as so they don’t become a lazy writing tool to get hero’s out of trouble.

 

[Kovnyn]

Sith Ghosts are a thing, sorta. Darth Bane's ghost appeared to Yoda during his own quest to learn the secrets of life after death.

There are other non-canon accounts of Sith ghosts interacting with the living, such as Exar Kun.

 

[Psab keel]

Obi-Wan barely rustling a few vines, I just rewatched that scene, is not the same thing as summoning lightning to burn down a giant tree or smacking Luke on the forehead with a cane. It wouldn't surprise me if they took that idea further and started having ghosts do even dumber things. Which again, begs the question, if they are capable of interacting with the land of the living in that way, why wouldn't they intercede to help their friends? I don't have a problem with them walking on the ground as its a practical issue of shooting a scene with two characters in the frame rather than having to suspend one character on wires or something. Come to think of it what if they tried to pick something up and their hand passed right through it, reminding the audience that they are in fact dead?

I can suspend my disbelief but there has to be a line otherwise I'm watching a cartoon.

 

[Joek3rr]

Sith Ghosts are a thing, sorta. Darth Bane's ghost appeared to Yoda during his own quest to learn the secrets of life after death.

There are other non-canon accounts of Sith ghosts interacting with the living, such as Exar Kun.

What Yoda saw was not a Force Ghost. "An illusion. Real, you are not." Dark Side users cannot become a Force Ghost. They can become a more traditional ghost, if you will. Haunting a location or possessing an item or person.

 

[Joek3rr]

Obi-Wan barely rustling a few vines, I just rewatched that scene, is not the same thing as summoning lightning to burn down a giant tree or smacking Luke on the forehead with a cane. It wouldn't surprise me if they took that idea further and started having ghosts do even dumber things. Which again, begs the question, if they are capable of interacting with the land of the living in that way, why wouldn't they intercede to help their friends? I don't have a problem with them walking on the ground as its a practical issue of shooting a scene with two characters in the frame rather than having to suspend one character on wires or something. Come to think of it what if they tried to pick something up and their hand passed right through it, reminding the audience that they are in fact dead?

I can suspend my disbelief but there has to be a line otherwise I'm watching a cartoon.

Personally I don't see why Yoda couldn't do that. I mean he's apart of the Cosmic Force, and the Force is everywhere and in everything. So it seems pretty trivial to me to be able to manipulate the the charged ions in the air to create a "natural" lightning bolt (as opposed to an unnatural Dark Side bolt that come from the being's body, if that makes sense).

And this is just my head canon. But I feel that Force Ghosts aren't allowed by the Force (or the Whills?) To interfere directly with events (or destiny?) Just something about the way Obi-Wan says "I cannot interfere" makes me think that.

 

[Psab keel]

I get what you're saying and I agree to a point but you see how the line is blurred now?