Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Psab keel]

The Ensure part kills me! ahahahahaha

 

[Bigdaddy]

Except Luke's got a Dark Side to him. You could literally apply Yoda's line about Anakin in ROTS to that flashback scene in TLJ. "Twisted by the Dark Side young Skywalker has become."
Aunt Beru said. "He's just not a farmer Owen. He's got to much of his father in him." "That's what I'm afraid of." And what did his father do?
View attachment 1046585

Further more we've seen how Luke acts when his sister is in danger. He dashes of to Cloud City when sees a vision of her in pain. He tries to kill his father, when he threatens to kill her? Nope he threatens to turn her to the Dark Side. So here we have Luke experiencing a trippy Force vision(and we've seen how emotional and surreal those are) where Luke witnesses his sister's death at the hand of his nephew. And Luke is briefly tempted to take him nephews life. This so very consistent. Not to mention it ties in with this whole notion of the Skywalker men being the catalyst for the very thing they are trying to prevent.

That only works if you ignore all the personal growth Luke went through in the OT. At least in the prequels we actually see Anakin's fall ( even if it's poorly written and makes little sense) rather than the DSW where Luke seems to have regressed for no reason that's apparent to the audience.

 

[Joek3rr]

That only works if you ignore all the personal growth Luke went through in the OT. At least in the prequels we actually see Anakin's fall ( even if it's poorly written and makes little sense) rather than the DSW where Luke seems to have regressed for no reason that's apparent to the audience.

A person is never free of the Dark Side. It's a daily struggle to not go that way. And there's no ignoring his personal growth. If that had been OT Luke, he would have straight up murdered his nephew. Before realizing his wrong. Luke is not an emotionless robot. He's very emotional, and sometimes he reacts on those emotions. But the fact that he didn't attack Ben, shows that he has changed.

This is OT Luke's violent reaction when his father that he loves, threatens to kill? No to turn his sister. Luke sees Ben kill his sister. If he hadn't had a reaction to that, that would have been so far out of character.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

That only works if you ignore all the personal growth Luke went through in the OT. At least in the prequels we actually see Anakin's fall ( even if it's poorly written and makes little sense) rather than the DSW where Luke seems to have regressed for no reason that's apparent to the audience.

As fans I feel we must believe that there were motivating factors that did indeed have a cause to change Luke from what he was in the OT to what we see in the ST.

However, for a general movie gore familiar with the story, I feel like this jump is problematic. I stated this in previous posts that too much story was skipped. If you can’t cover the key details in the opening crawl, you have to somehow tall that backstory. As far as I am concerned, they have yet to connect the events leading original trilogy Luke to the Luke standing over a sleeping Ben. As fans, we must speculate on the pressures and struggles Luke must have experienced trying to restart a new generation of Jedi.

However...

...This story is not over. There is still one more movie to go and we may yet learn more about this. I am a real fan so I will continue to be excited about the upcoming movie and draw positives on what has past.

 

[Bigdaddy]

A person is never free of the Dark Side. It's a daily struggle to not go that way. And there's no ignoring his personal growth. If that had been OT Luke, he would have straight up murdered his nephew. Before realizing his wrong. Luke is not an emotionless robot. He's very emotional, and sometimes he reacts on those emotions. But the fact that he didn't attack Ben, shows that he has changed.
View attachment 1046710
This is OT Luke's violent reaction when his father that he loves, threatens to kill? No to turn his sister. Luke sees Ben kill his sister. If he hadn't had a reaction to that, that would have been so far out of character.

We obviously view the character VERY differently. That might be because I didn't grow up with the prequels, hearing from GL how Vader was the hero all along. Before DSW I never heard of anyone referring to Luke as murderous. I think you're over simplifying the throne room exchange in order to connect the new films to the OT.
The whole concept of "the Dark side made me do it" is as boring and lazy as "the Will of the Force" for explaining plot holes.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of audience members viewed Luke as a hero at the end of ROTJ, not a potential murderer struggling with the dark side.
Even in the OT the "Dark" side seems to be about personal choices, not a devil on your shoulder whispering in your ear to do evil things.

 

[Bigdaddy]

As fans I feel we must believe that there were motivating factors that did indeed have a cause to change Luke from what he was in the OT to what we see in the ST.

However, for a general movie gore familiar with the story, I feel like this jump is problematic. I stated this in previous posts that too much story was skipped. If you can’t cover the key details in the opening crawl, you have to somehow tall that backstory. As far as I am concerned, they have yet to connect the events leading original trilogy Luke to the Luke standing over a sleeping Ben. As fans, we must speculate on the pressures and struggles Luke must have experienced trying to restart a new generation of Jedi.

However...

...This story is not over. There is still one more movie to go and we may yet learn more about this. I am a real fan so I will continue to be excited about the upcoming movie and draw positives on what has past.

Ah, the "real fan" card, guess I've been faking it since 77!

 

[Joek3rr]

We obviously view the character VERY differently. That might be because I didn't grow up with the prequels, hearing from GL how Vader was the hero all along. Before DSW I never heard of anyone referring to Luke as murderous. I think you're over simplifying the throne room exchange in order to connect the new films to the OT.
The whole concept of "the Dark side made me do it" is as boring and lazy as "the Will of the Force" for explaining plot holes.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of audience members viewed Luke as a hero at the end of ROTJ, not a potential murderer struggling with the dark side.
Even in the OT the "Dark" side seems to be about personal choices, not a devil on your shoulder whispering in your ear to do evil things.

Consider this. The musical cue that plays during the scene that Luke attacks his father. Is called The Dark Side Beakons.

Just the way that whole scene plays out. Luke looking down at the his father cybernetic hand then to his. Realizing that his actions are leading him down a similar path that his father went down. He's becoming his father. Suddenly he gets the lesson that Yoda was trying to teach him in the Dark Side cave. A lesson he failed.

Then fast forward and look at the blatant parallels

 

[Bigdaddy]

Consider this. The musical cue that plays during the scene that Luke attacks his father. Is called The Dark Side Beakons.

Just the way that whole scene plays out. Luke looking down at the his father cybernetic hand then to his. Realizing that his actions are leading him down a similar path that his father went down. He's becoming his father. Suddenly he gets the lesson that Yoda was trying to teach him in the Dark Side cave. A lesson he failed.

Then fast forward and look at the blatant parallels View attachment 1046719

Yeah I get what they were going for, I just find it rediculous that he learned his lesson in ROTJ but regressed 15 or 20 years later. The title of the music doesn't indicate whether the Dark side is a metaphor or an actual "thing". I still view the force as a neutral energy, the "light" or "dark" is metaphorical for an individual's personal choices.

 

[Joek3rr]

Yeah I get what they were going for, I just find it rediculous that he learned his lesson in ROTJ but regressed 15 or 20 years later. The title of the music doesn't indicate whether the Dark side is a metaphor or an actual "thing". I still view the force as a neutral energy, the "light" or "dark" is metaphorical for an individual's personal choices.

So he slipped up. It's not like he's okay with that. It's weighing on his mind the entirety of TLJ.

"The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

 

[Bigdaddy]

So he slipped up. It's not like he's okay with that. It's weighing on his mind the entirety of TLJ.

"The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

It's WAY more than a slip up, and his reaction made no sense to me either.
GL changes his mind like underwear, that quote is like da Vinci explaining why the Mona Lisa is smiling. If the context of the smile was that important it would be part of the painting. If GL wanted to convey that view in the OT he did a poor job of it.

 

[CT1138]

Then fast forward and look at the blatant parallels View attachment 1046719

If there's one thing TLJ excels at, it's paralleling the rest of the Saga. I love how it does that, too. Very much like the PT in that sense.

 

[Joek3rr]

It's WAY more than a slip up, and his reaction made no sense to me either.
GL changes his mind like underwear, that quote is like da Vinci explaining why the Mona Lisa is smiling. If the context of the smile was that important it would be part of the painting. If GL wanted to convey that view in the OT he did a poor job of it.

That's pretty good reaction. When someone has struggled with something in their past. And they think they're free of it, but have a slip up. They often can sink into a bit of depression. Personal experience.

The OT did a great job of expressing that.
"Anger, fear, aggression- The Dark Side of the Force are they, easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight." Which actually has some bearing on our discussion here.....

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[Psab keel]

I think you're wrong. It's an incredibly pessimistic and cynical view of the character of Luke Skywalker who was the most optimistic character in the original trilogy. But we will never agree on this so it doesn't matter.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Bro you don't have to justify your love of the new films. It works for you so go with it! I guess I'm cursed to view the OT as it was originally presented, a beginning, middle and end of a single cohesive story. I never got into the EU and always saw the PT as a terrible attempt by GL to retcon his greatest film making success.
The PT was interesting but has tremendous inconsistencies with the OT. The DSW fanfilms are even harder for me to connect.
As far as I'm concerned Luke IS the hero of Star Wars, no matter how much money Disney paid GL their fanfilms won't change that.

 

[Joek3rr]

I think you're wrong. But we will never agree on this so it doesn't matter.

That's fine.

But I have to ask. Where's your evidence to back up your statements?

 

[ObiWan_Knievil]

I'm utterly convinced the only reason this was done to Luke's character was to line up with a political ideology pure and simple. And as those posts will cause my ban, I am now shutting up.

In other news...my son just found one of these at our local Essex. Yes.. we bought it.

-OWK

 

[Joek3rr]

Bro you don't have to justify your love of the new films. It works for you so go with it! I guess I'm cursed to view the OT as it was originally presented, a beginning, middle and end of a single cohesive story. I never got into the EU and always saw the PT as a terrible attempt by GL to retcon his greatest film making success.
The PT was interesting but has tremendous inconsistencies with the OT. The DSW fanfilms are even harder for me to connect.
As far as I'm concerned Luke IS the hero of Star Wars, no matter how much money Disney paid GL their fanfilms won't change that.

So a hero can't have morality struggles? Someone ought to tell Batman

 

[Psab keel]

That's fine.

But I have to ask. Where's your evidence to back up your statements?

Are you serious? You and I have debated this topic for nearly two years on multiple threads so don't act like you are totally unaware of my position on the matter. I've stated my evidence for my stance countless times. You dont agree with them and that's fine, but do we REALLY need to cover this YET again? It's clear you don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. You've stated your evidence and I've stated mine. The twain shall never meet.

I can't fathom why we need to retread this same argument over and over again and you act as if you're hearing all of this for very the first time.

I'm happy you love the movie. By all means love it! But there are a lot of us who can't stand the ST. You're just going to have to accept that fans like me are out. No matter how you frame your argument on the subject you're not changing my mind.

 

[Joek3rr]

Are you serious? You and I have debated this topic for nearly two years on multiple threads so don't act like you are totally unaware of my position on the matter. I've stated my evidence for my stance countless times. You dont agree with them and that's fine, but do we REALLY need to cover this YET again? It's clear you don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. You've stated your evidence and I've stated mine. The twain shall never meet.

I can't fathom why we need to retread this same argument over and over again and you act as if you're hearing all of this for very the first time.

I'm happy you love the movie. By all means love it! But there are a lot of us who can't stand the ST. You're just going to have to accept that fans like me are out. No matter how you frame your argument on the subject you're not changing my mind.

Eh....I don't recall you ever sharing a line of dialogue or a scene from another film. Or even something that George has said. To back you argument up. But maybe I'm just getting forgetful . Sorry!

When I'm debating these things you guys. You'll notice I'm almost always referencing a line of dialogue or scene from the film to back up my stuff. It's just good practice. Give me something to work with. I can't debate someone's personal feelings. Cause right now, this how are debates go....

Why I think something the Sequel or Prequel trilogy works.
Showing evidence from other films, mostly from the OT why I feel that way.

The other person disagrees with me.
Their evidence to back themselves up. Because they don't like it?

In other words our debates are facts vs feelings. That doesn't work.

 

[Psab keel]

Eh....I don't recall you ever sharing a line of dialogue or a scene from another film. Or even something that George has said. To back you argument up. But maybe I'm just getting forgetful . Sorry!

When I'm debating these things you guys. You'll notice I'm almost always referencing a line of dialogue or scene from the film to back up my stuff. It's just good practice. Give me something to work with. I can't debate someone's personal feelings. Cause right now, this how are debates go....

Why I think something the Sequel or Prequel trilogy works.
Showing evidence from other films, mostly from the OT why I feel that way.

The other person disagrees with me.
Their evidence to back themselves up. Because they don't like it?

In other words our debates are facts vs feelings. That doesn't work.

Then you are willfully ignorant and it proves that you have outright never read any of my posts and it's getting tiring to debate with someone who isn't listening. If you want to spout your love for this movie without opposition, start a blog. Otherwise you're going to have to deal with people disagreeing with you. But I'll tell you, you're not winning anyone over when you retread the same subject over and over ad nauseam and then act like you have no idea what they are talking about.

You and I have spent the last two years going back and forth. You can't deny that. If you want I can re-post our exchanges here but I don't think anyone wants to have to scroll through all two years worth of posts.

It's this kind of response that infuriates me man. I'm willing to concede that you love this movie. Fine. But you are unwilling to even acknowledge the other side. It doesn't mean you have to agree with me, but it doesn't help when you are hell bent on convincing me that I'm an idiot for not liking a totally **** movie.