Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Mara Jade's Father]

We obviously view the character VERY differently. That might be because I didn't grow up with the prequels, hearing from GL how Vader was the hero all along. Before DSW I never heard of anyone referring to Luke as murderous. I think you're over simplifying the throne room exchange in order to connect the new films to the OT.
The whole concept of "the Dark side made me do it" is as boring and lazy as "the Will of the Force" for explaining plot holes.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of audience members viewed Luke as a hero at the end of ROTJ, not a potential murderer struggling with the dark side.
Even in the OT the "Dark" side seems to be about personal choices, not a devil on your shoulder whispering in your ear to do evil things.

I never hear Lucas nor anyone claim that Vader was the hero. What they did say was that the saga, at least the first 6, were about Anakin. His Rise, Fall, and redemption. But even through redemption, it does not make him a hero. We know that Luke is the one on the Hero Journey. So I don't really feel you missed the point on that.

I also do not believe we are to think Luke touched the dark side in the throne room. Maybe flirt with the audience that it is possible. But the core of Luke is not someone who is angry or fearful. He may of been angry at Vader at first because he thought he killed his father but after he found out the truth, he was the only one who believed he could be brought back. This is unlike Anakin who spent most of his life afraid of losing those he cared about and willing to do anything to save that in which was important to him.

I do not know if it is a great comparison, but I remember a line from Buffy. Angel explains that as a Vampire, the demon get your body, but he doesn’t get your soul. Basically your soul is gone and everything that made you who you were is gone. I feel that is the way it is with giving yourself to the dark side. Ben says that once it happened, he ceased being Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. And this goes to the visual in Return of the Jedi when you see Anakin’s young spirit... because he Anakin ceased to be back in Revenge of the Sith.

 

[Joek3rr]

I also do not believe we are to think Luke touched the dark side in the throne room. Maybe flirt with the audience that it is possible. But the core of Luke is not someone who is angry or fearful. He may of been angry at Vader at first because he thought he killed his father but after he found out the truth, he was the only one who believed he could be brought back. This is unlike Anakin who spent most of his life afraid of losing those he cared about and willing to do anything to save that in which was important to him.

According to Yoda fear, anger, aggression, hate, are the Dark Side. If thats the case then Luke is filled with that in the throne room. And by extension the Dark Side.

"The hate is swelling in you now....Give into your anger." "Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete." "Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you." "Good! Your hate has made you powerful."

And speaking about Luke, Yoda said "Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father."

"I'm not afraid."
"Oh, you will be. You will be"

 

[Joek3rr]

Speaking of horrible things, it took me until like a year ago to realize one of those "how the hell did this work so perfectly in hindsight" eureka moments: we see Vader torture Han, Leia, and Chewbacca in ESB in order to draw Luke to him via psychic Force mojo. Over two decades later AOTC is released and we see Anakin plagued by visions of his tormented and dying mother. It's a whole new level of awful to realize that he intimately knows exactly what he's doing by inflicting physical and emotional pain on Luke's friends. That's precisely what he went through as a young man and he personally knows it works. It winds up becoming a heinous echo of his experience. Thanks, I hate it (I love it) and now you can all suffer with me too.

I've never made that connection before. It makes sense, as that would be what George considers to be some rhyming. Definitely not going to watch those scenes the same!

I'm watching ESB for my birthday on the 25th!!!!!!!!

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

According to Yoda fear, anger, aggression, hate, are the Dark Side. If thats the case then Luke is filled with that in the throne room. And by extension the Dark Side.

"The hate is swelling in you now....Give into your anger." "Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete." "Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you." "Good! Your hate has made you powerful."

And speaking about Luke, Yoda said "Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father."

"I'm not afraid."
"Oh, you will be. You will be"

But not just instances of emotion. There were thousands of Jedi in the order at any given time for thousands of years. You don’t think any of them ever had feeling of fear, hate, or anger in battle? It not about a spark of emotion. You think every young Padawan has that sort of control? it is about letting those emotions dictate your life. Once again, this is another example of fans taking a line an drawing strict conclusions from them. No one ever said Obi Wan was on the dark side when he battled Maul after Qui Gon’s death. He was clearly angry and upset. I’d say Luke experienced more anger and more fear in his encounter with Vader in The Empire Strikes Back than in Return of the Jedi. No one ever felt he was turning to the dark side then.

 

[Joek3rr]

But not just instances of emotion. There were thousands of Jedi in the order at any given time for thousands of years. You don’t think any of them ever had feeling of fear, hate, or anger in battle? It not about a spark of emotion. You think every young Padawan has that sort of control? it is about letting those emotions dictate your life. Once again, this is another example of fans taking a line an drawing strict conclusions from them. No one ever said Obi Wan was on the dark side when he battled Maul after Qui Gon’s death. He was clearly angry and upset. I’d say Luke experienced more anger and more fear in his encounter with Vader in The Empire Strikes Back than in Return of the Jedi. No one ever felt he was turning to the dark side then.

I agree with you.

And that's exactly what we see. Luke is acting on his fear and anger when he pulls his lightsaber to him and tires to behead the Emperor. Luke is acting on his fear and anger when he lashes out at his father. Luke is drawing on the Dark Side. Just like Anakin who acted on his fear and anger when he slaughter the Tusken village. Or when he made a deal with the "devil" to save his wife.

 

[Ron]

I think Joek3rr might be right about the way this ends. As amateurish as the writing has been so far in the ST fanfilms, it makes sense to close it out on a rediculous amateur concept.
On another note, my wife sent me this at work today:
View attachment 1046487
Yeah, there's a reason we've been together for 25 years!

You know you're spending too much time on the RPF when the first thing you notice in this pic is how bad that Boba Fett helmet looks.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I agree with you.

And that's exactly what we see. Luke is acting on his fear and anger when he pulls his lightsaber to him and tires to behead the Emperor. Luke is acting on his fear and anger when he lashes out at his father. Luke is drawing on the Dark Side. Just like Anakin who acted on his fear and anger when he slaughter the Tusken village. Or when he made a deal with the "devil" to save his wife.

Not anything close to what I was saying.

 

[Joek3rr]

Not anything close to what I was saying.

I agree with this

it is about letting those emotions dictate your life.

It's one thing have those emotions. Another thing to let those emotions control you. In the case of Luke, given what we see, how he acts, and the dialogue. Luke is clearly being controlled by his emotions. If he had killed the Emperor, Luke would have fallen, and the film would have ended with Vader as emperor and Luke his apprentice. If Luke had killed his father, he would have fallen, and the film would have ended with Luke as the Emperor's new apprentice.

 

[Psab keel]

I agree with this


It's one thing have those emotions. Another thing to let those emotions control you. In the case of Luke, given what we see, how he acts, and the dialogue. Luke is clearly being controlled by his emotions. If he had killed the Emperor, Luke would have fallen, and the film would have ended with Vader as emperor and Luke his apprentice. If Luke had killed his father, he would have fallen, and the film would have ended with Luke as the Emperor's new apprentice.

But you conveniently ignore the fact that Luke didn't do those things. Luke didn't kill the Emperor or Vader. He stopped himself. He may have lost his control in a moment of weakness, but he eventually came to his senses. You can't have character growth unless you show the change. Where Luke may have been impatient or angry, by the climax of Return of the Jedi he has mastered the darkness within himself.

 

[Joek3rr]

But you conveniently ignore the fact that Luke didn't do those things. Luke didn't kill the Emperor or Vader. He stopped himself. He may have lost his control in a moment of weakness, but he eventually came to his senses. You can't have character growth unless you show the change. Where Luke may have been impatient or angry, by the climax of Return of the Jedi he has mastered the darkness within himself. Powerful stuff.

Oh I agree, it is powerful stuff. I'm not ignoring that he didn't do those things. But it doesn't change the fact he's still giving into his anger and hatred, which means he's using the Dark Side. The script even says so...
-Luke looks momentarily toward the Emperor, then back to Vader, and realizes he is using the dark side. He steps back, turns off his lightsaber, and relaxes, driving the hate from his being.-

But I disagree about him mastering the Darkness. He's gotten better controling it. But he doesn't become some sort of Jedi saint, free of the temptations of the Dark Side.

 

[Psab keel]

 

[Frogfreak]

I thought everyone was gonna stop arguing about everthing.

 

[Psab keel]

It's hard to walk away when you've been at this for as long as we have. hahaha

 

[Frogfreak]

It's hard to walk away when you've been at this for as long as we have. hahaha

I understand. lol

 

[Ron]

But you conveniently ignore the fact that Luke didn't do those things. Luke didn't kill the Emperor or Vader. He stopped himself. He may have lost his control in a moment of weakness, but he eventually came to his senses. You can't have character growth unless you show the change. Where Luke may have been impatient or angry, by the climax of Return of the Jedi he has mastered the darkness within himself. Powerful stuff.

Exactly! And that's the problem with Luke taking an aggressive posture against Ben. He learned his lesson of letting anger dictate his actions against Vader. He grew as a character. So why is he again letting anger, fear, hatred, dictate his actions toward Ben? He should know better. It means his character has regressed. Now while I think it's a terrible idea to turn one of the greatest cinematic heroes into a crotchety old hermit that almost murdered his nephew, from a writing standpoint, it can work if you explain the change in Luke that put him in such a state of mind where he would succumb to anger again when he previously learned the negative consequences of it. Luke must've changed somewhere along the way and one of many problems with TLJ is the writers failed to show why he changed.

 

[Psab keel]

I've said the exact same thing ever since the film came out. Almost verbatim.

 

[ThreadSketch]

For me, the other distinctive thing is...at that very moment in time, Ben Solo - from what the film presented - hadn't actually done anything yet. Everything was still potential, in the future. Even if that was an alarming, horrifying future, he hadn't yet shed any blood.

Decades before, Luke decided his murderous, demented father was still worthy of mercy - a man who was absolutely soaked in the blood of countless lives. For Luke to actually come to the conclusion at that moment standing over Ben's sleeping form that his nephew needed to be executed, even if just for a split second, is pretty damn ludicrous, not to mention that Luke would allow anger and bald fear rather than grief, pity, empathy, and compassion to dictate his gut reaction when he beholds another loved one in the throes of what once ruled his father. It's a tragedy to sense his nephew turning or being influenced by the Dark Side and one would think Luke would instead desire to reason with him rather than ignite his blade and attempt to do exactly what Obi-Wan and Yoda were hoping he would do to Anakin 30 years earlier.

Luke already walked away from the role of "righteous executioner" before. The only remotely plausible way he could make this decision now is if in the intervening years he somehow became wholeheartedly devoted to old Jedi dogma about having to "put down" Sith like rabid dogs instead of holding to his own personal, hard-earned convictions.

 

[Psab keel]

Plus whose to say that this vision would even come to pass? (Again another point I've argued countless times)

"Always in motion is the future."

You'd think that in 30 years Luke would have remembered this important lesson from Yoda.

 

[ThreadSketch]

Plus whose to say that this vision would even come to pass? (Again another point I've argued countless times)

"Always in motion is the future."

You'd think that in 30 years Luke would have remembered this important lesson from Yoda.

Speaking of which, on a more positive note - seeing ESB tonight!!!

 

[Jaitea]

So....Whats going to happen to Galaxy's Edge?

If the next movie is good, it might save it

J