Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Joek3rr]

Then you are willfully ignorant and it proves that you have outright never read any of my posts and it's getting tiring to debate with someone who isn't listening. If you want to spout your love for this movie without opposition, start a blog. Otherwise you're going to have to deal with people disagreeing with you. But I'll tell you, you're not winning anyone over when you retread the same subject over and over ad nauseam and then act like you have no idea what they are talking about.

You and I have spent the last two years going back and forth. You can't deny that. If you want I can re-post our exchanges here but I don't think anyone wants to have to scroll through all two years worth of posts.

It's this kind of response that infuriates me man. I'm willing to concede that you love this movie. Fine. But you are unwilling to even acknowledge the other side. It doesn't mean you have to agree with me, but it doesn't help when you are hell bent on convincing me that I'm an idiot for not liking a totally **** movie.

And I'm tired of debating feelings. I am willing to go where the evidence takes me, it just happens that I like the films, so it makes it easy for me.

And this is coming from a guy who didn't dig Luke at first in TLJ. But after watching all the films, and thinking hard and long on it, I came to the conclusion that it worked and I liked it.

 

[Joek3rr]

Cool looking in-universe book coming out!

Luke Skywalker Is Your Guide in New Book The Secrets of the Jedi - Exclusive | StarWars.com

Get a first look at an interactive reading experience strong with the Force.

www.starwars.com

 

[Psab keel]

I've stated my position along with evidence from the existing films. I've largely based my arguments on the content of the films alone so as to judge them solely on their own merits (and the basic rules of fiction) without resorting to defending my position on ancillary material or interviews with the creators because to do so takes it out of context. Plus those things are largely irrelevant anyway.

Would you prefer I clog your thread with the exchanges we've had over the last two years?

You just don't agree with me.

I can live with that. At least if we left it at that I could see eye to eye with you and say that it's an honest position. We don't agree. Fine.

But to state that my position is based on feelings alone is disingenuous and you know it.

I've tried meeting you half way all this time, no matter how frustrated I get with you. You don't seem to want to extend me the same courtesy.

There's nothing I can do about that.

I wish you well Joek3rr. I sincerely do. But I'm out.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Ah, the "real fan" card, guess I've been faking it since 77!

Could be. Maybe you need some soul searching.

 

[Bigdaddy]

So a hero can't have morality struggles? Someone ought to tell Batman

Ironic that you should mention him, Friday is normally reserved for Superman but I'm behind on laundry today:

I'm not sure what your statement means since I didn't say anything about Batman or morality struggles.

 

[CT1138]

All arguments aside, that is an epic handlebar mustache you've got going there.

 

[Joek3rr]

Ironic that you should mention him, Friday is normally reserved for Superman but I'm behind on laundry today:View attachment 1046817
I'm not sure what your statement means since I didn't say anything about Batman or morality struggles.

Ha! I'm wearing a Batman shirt today too!

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

I actually miss the love angle from the new movies. Fairy tale needs the love bit IMO no matter how unfashionable it is these days.

Check out the last few minutes of this video, if it doesn't go straight to it, jump to 8min: 38sec in.

It just sounds amateurish to have them get together in the end when their relationship was based on trying to kill one another the whole trilogy.

Oh, you mean like an actual marriage? (Sorry, bad joke inspired by bad times recently)

 

[Bigdaddy]

Discussing Star Wars is fun, debating it can be as well IF everyone understands that art is subjective and open to interpretation. It's one thing to say "here's how I see it" and another to say "here's how it is".

Your logical fallacy is the texas sharpshooter

You cherry-picked a data cluster to suit your argument, or found a pattern to fit a presumption.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

That's one issue going on in this discussion as well as these:

Your logical fallacy is begging the question

You presented a circular argument in which the conclusion was included in the premise.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Your logical fallacy is appeal to authority

You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

There are plenty of others but this is probably the least productive and takes the fun out of it the most:

Your logical fallacy is ad hominem

You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Plenty of people have suggested that "real fans" only like the OT, that's just as rediculous as the suggestion that "real fans" have to like DSW, cartoons, novels, etc.

Your logical fallacy is no true scotsman

You made what could be called an appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms or flaws of your argument.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Maybe Joek3rr should change the name of the thread to "let's debate Star Wars".

 

[CT1138]

I see nothing wrong with a good, healthy debate. Keeps the mind sharp.

 

[sztriki]

Discussing Star Wars is fun, debating it can be as well IF everyone understands that art is subjective and open to interpretation. It's one thing to say "here's how I see it" and another to say "here's how it is".

Your logical fallacy is the texas sharpshooter

You cherry-picked a data cluster to suit your argument, or found a pattern to fit a presumption.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

That's one issue going on in this discussion as well as these:

Your logical fallacy is begging the question

You presented a circular argument in which the conclusion was included in the premise.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Your logical fallacy is appeal to authority

You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

There are plenty of others but this is probably the least productive and takes the fun out of it the most:

Your logical fallacy is ad hominem

You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Plenty of people have suggested that "real fans" only like the OT, that's just as rediculous as the suggestion that "real fans" have to like DSW, cartoons, novels, etc.

Your logical fallacy is no true scotsman

You made what could be called an appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms or flaws of your argument.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Maybe Joek3rr should change the name of the thread to "let's debate Star Wars".

This was all worth the hassle just for this site, thanks very much, I’ll be occupied with this for quite a while.

 

[Psab keel]

Debate is good. Absolutely!

I can acknowledge that yes, art is subjective and what I like others might not and vice versa. Everyone is going to have a biased opinion and no one, I mean no one, is going to ever be completely objective. That's just reality. It's also important for both parties to acknowledge their bias and I think both of us have been very open about that. I commend Joek3rr for that. I also commend him for not resorting to name calling and I have largely tried to do the same because that solves nothing.

But to counter someone's argument and say that they are basing their stance on feelings alone, when they have very clearly presented their side of the argument with examples from the source being debated seems insincere and to my mind, detracts from the discussion because it disregards the points raised as if they are irrelevant. It comes across as dismissive and that's what gets under my skin.

Had this been the first time this problem arose, or had this exact topic not been debated to death over the last two years I would have not lost my patience. But this thread often feels like it should really be a blog where Joek3rr can fawn over The Last Jedi without contest.

Though I am frustrated I sincerely hold no ill will against him or anyone who loves this movie, no matter how much I disagree with them. I just hate having my fandom questioned and my points disregarded as if they are meaningless because they aren't in line with Joek3rr's assessment.

How often have I said I am willing to agree to disagree on the subject? I don't know that the same can be said of Joek3rr.

 

[Frogfreak]

We all love star wars, right? Let's just leave it at that and stop all the arguing, ok?

. ........................................IS EVERYONE GOOD WITH THAT?...................................

 

[Bigdaddy]

This was all worth the hassle just for this site, thanks very much, I’ll be occupied with this for quite a while.

I put a poster from the site on my daughter's bedroom wall listing all the fallacies, helps keep her from falling into the fallacy trap.

 

[Joek3rr]

And that's thing too. I'm trying not to share my assessments or my bias opinions. Obviously that's still comes through. That's unavoidable. I'm always trying to discuss them in the most unbiased way possible. Hence I've always got a quote or two. There's no ands, ifs, or buts about a quote from the film. I have the ability to watch the films anywhere I have internet. So I'm always going back to the films. Cause heck, I'm sometimes wrong.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Except Luke's got a Dark Side to him. You could literally apply Yoda's line about Anakin in ROTS to that flashback scene in TLJ. "Twisted by the Dark Side young Skywalker has become."
Aunt Beru said. "He's just not a farmer Owen. He's got to much of his father in him." "That's what I'm afraid of." And what did his father do?
View attachment 1046585

Further more we've seen how Luke acts when his sister is in danger. He dashes of to Cloud City when sees a vision of her in pain. He tries to kill his father, when he threatens to kill her? Nope he threatens to turn her to the Dark Side. So here we have Luke experiencing a trippy Force vision(and we've seen how emotional and surreal those are) where Luke witnesses his sister's death at the hand of his nephew. And Luke is briefly tempted to take him nephews life. This so very consistent. Not to mention it ties in with this whole notion of the Skywalker men being the catalyst for the very thing they are trying to prevent.

I don't care how much someone is like their father, you're not going to go against your core beliefs and values no matter if it's 40 years later. To the latter paragraph, again at that point when Luke duels Vader, he didn't know Vader was his dad so of course he's not going to try to save him. He was the enemy. After Vader reveals he's his father, he feels something in him and decides to redeem him, which he tells Yoda in ROTJ. When Luke wants to save a mass murderer, but instantly, no matter how brief the thought was, wants to kill his nephew just for thinking about going to the Dark Side, that's not consistent at all. It's completely not Jedi like and it's bad writing.

 

[Joek3rr]

I don't care how much someone is like their father, you're not going to go against your core beliefs and values no matter if it's 40 years later. To the latter paragraph, again at that point when Luke duels Vader, he didn't know Vader was his dad so of course he's not going to try to save him. He was the enemy. After Vader reveals he's his father, he feels something in him and decides to redeem him, which he tells Yoda in ROTJ. When Luke wants to save a mass murderer, but instantly, no matter how brief the thought was, wants to kill his nephew just for thinking about going to the Dark Side, that's not consistent at all. It's completely not Jedi like and it's bad writing.

I'm sorry but you are so far away from the truth.

First. Luke does indeed know that Vader is his father. And he is tempted to kill his own father. And for what? He threatens to turn his sister. Not to kill her. To turn her.

Second. He isn't tempted to kill his nephew because he was "thinking about going to the Dark Side." Ben had already turned. "I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it."

So if Luke is willing to kill his father for threatening to turn his sister. Is so far a stretch that he might be tempted for a few seconds to kill his nephew in order to save his sister, Han, Chewie, Artoo, Threepeio, the Resistance, his students? I mean look at the lengths his father was willing to go in order to save Padmé's.

 

[ThreadSketch]

Just wanted to point out that Vader killing Leia would honestly be more of a mercy than turning her. A life on the Dark Side is a fate worse than mere death. Pretty obvious that's what pushed Luke's hot button. He's got his own wheezy dad looming in front of him, a walking monolith of misery, as evidence of what would be in store for his twin sister, to say nothing of being a new slave to the Emperor. It also takes a special kind of depravity to be willing to twist a living soul instead of just snuffing them out of existence. Vader pulling this stunt on Luke was stone friggin' cold and no less evil than murder.

(And frankly this is the same reason Luke is 100% willing to die a couple of minutes later when he comes to his senses and eloquently tells Palpatine to shove it.)

 

[Joek3rr]

Just wanted to point out that Vader killing Leia would honestly be more of a mercy than turning her. A life on the Dark Side is a fate worse than mere death. Pretty obvious that's what pushed Luke's hot button. He's got his own wheezy dad looming in front of him, a walking monolith of misery, as evidence of what would be in store for his twin sister, to say nothing of being a new slave to the Emperor. It also takes a special kind of depravity to be willing to twist a living soul instead of just snuffing them out of existence. Vader pulling this stunt on Luke was stone friggin' cold and no less evil than murder.

(And frankly this is the same reason Luke is 100% willing to die a couple of minutes later when he comes to his senses and eloquently tells Palpatine to shove it.)

I love that scene so much!

Side note: anyone ever notice that Vader is holding Luke's saber in his left hand, when he's looking for/goading him?

 

[ThreadSketch]

Speaking of horrible things, it took me until like a year ago to realize one of those "how the hell did this work so perfectly in hindsight" eureka moments: we see Vader torture Han, Leia, and Chewbacca in ESB in order to draw Luke to him via psychic Force mojo. Over two decades later AOTC is released and we see Anakin plagued by visions of his tormented and dying mother. It's a whole new level of awful to realize that he intimately knows exactly what he's doing by inflicting physical and emotional pain on Luke's friends. That's precisely what he went through as a young man and he personally knows it works. It winds up becoming a heinous echo of his experience. Thanks, I hate it (I love it) and now you can all suffer with me too.