Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Psab keel]

Just expressing an opinion. I feel the writing sucks. You're entitled to your opinion.

I happen to consider Joek3rr a friend. Even if I disagree with him on a lot of the story. I'm not sure the feeling is mutual but I admire his enthusiasm.

I think using critical thinking skills, even applied to storytelling is important. You may not find it important but I do. Joek3rr was telling me not to think too much about it and just accept the idea, which I thought was a stupid. So I said I wasn't willing to accept what I feel as a bad premise and shut my brain off (not use critical thinking).

You also have a habit of being pretty disrepectful to me by telling me my criticisms are invalid. I can agree to disagree about the new films.

 

[Scarecrow Joe]

There is no habit and there was never an intention to be disrespectful. You always have a hard time when arguments thrown your way effectively contradict your mostly incredibly biased opinions. Telling someone that he/she shuts his brain off is truly bordering in the disrespectful side, much more than a silly meme. You ask for respect....better be prepared to give it too, that's all. If I call someone "a friend" I would never say to him anything along the lines of "willing to shut your brain off". I bet Joek33r didn't mind but man....take it easy. My 2 cents....

 

[Psab keel]

It's never my intention to be disrespectful either. Look, I'm sorry I took offense at your joke with the meme, alright? I know I can get heated sometimes and I openly admit that. It just feels like sometimes your approach can come across as abrasive. Opinions by their very nature are biased and everyone is entitled to their opinion on the movies or anything else for that matter. If you love these new films, by all means love them. We're all fans here, some of us just prefer certain parts over others and that is bound to happen when we are passionate about something.

I try to frame my opinions on the films based on what knowledge I have of story structure and my own experience with writing since I've been doing it for a long time and if I'm critical of something I try to make it about the ideas rather than the person.

Scarecrow Joe and Joek3rr I hate the direction that the Star Wars films have taken. I don't have any shame about saying that in the least, but if I came across as disrespectful, I sincerely apologize.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on the matter. I wish I did love these new installments. I really do and I think that's partly why I'm so critical of them because they had the potential to be so good.

MTFBWY Both.

 

[Joek3rr]

Is that canon now? View attachment 1024915

"Kylo had retreated at finding Rey in his head - had practically fled from her. But that had not been the end of that strange, sudden connection. She had seen more - far more. Somehow, almost instinctually, she knew how he accessed some of the powers at his commend - even though she didn't understand them. It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind"

They are in each others head, but seeing, er... experiencing things, learning things. According to Star Wars Explained the Lucasfilm Story Group has hinted that Ben ended up with some of Rey's skills as well. I don't know if you've seen this interesting bit.

Some noticed that Ben's moves are strangly similar to Rey's. I think this is an instance where Ben has gotten some of Rey's skills, I don't recall him ever using a reverse grip on his saber. But Rey does.

The take away from all this is: Rey and Ben are connected on a deep level. The Force has made sure that the two of them are equals, they are literally two sides of the coin. And just because they were able to share skills this one time, doesn't mean it can and always happens the same way.

 

[thegnome]

brother and sister then. They have a lot of the same physical characteristics. I think episode nine is going to be like a yang kind of thing with the force.

 

[Psab keel]

There are rumors circulating that they are half siblings having the same father and different mothers.

 

[Joek3rr]

There are rumors circulating that they are half siblings having the same father and different mothers.

Thankfully it doesn't fit the timeline. The rumor says that Han fathered Rey after Han and Liea separated. But Rey is like 19 during TFA and Han and Liea separated like 5 years before TFA.

 

[Joek3rr]

Teaser time!

 

[Joek3rr]

It's never my intention to be disrespectful either. Look, I'm sorry I took offense at your joke with the meme, alright? I know I can get heated sometimes and I openly admit that. It just feels like sometimes your approach can come across as abrasive. Opinions by their very nature are biased and everyone is entitled to their opinion on the movies or anything else for that matter. If you love these new films, by all means love them. We're all fans here, some of us just prefer certain parts over others and that is bound to happen when we are passionate about something.

I try to frame my opinions on the films based on what knowledge I have of story structure and my own experience with writing since I've been doing it for a long time and if I'm critical of something I try to make it about the ideas rather than the person.

Scarecrow Joe and Joek3rr I hate the direction that the Star Wars films have taken. I don't have any shame about saying that in the least, but if I came across as disrespectful, I sincerely apologize.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on the matter. I wish I did love these new installments. I really do and I think that's partly why I'm so critical of them because they had the potential to be so good.

MTFBWY Both.

Sorry couldn't help myself

So now I'm wondering if you think that it's poor writing. So what's your opinion on The Matrix? Where they are literally downloading their skills.

 

[Psab keel]

In the context of the Matrix it works because the characters are living inside a computer simulation so based on that idea it makes perfect sense. Especially since the final confrontation takes place within the Matrix itself.

I don't think it works in the ST because we've watched Luke training in A New Hope and Empire, and even though they only talked about training in the PT they did stress it's importance to the Jedi mindset and lifestyle.

Having Rey "download" some of her skills through her mind meld with Kylo Ren, to me, it undermines what had been established in the previous films. It comes across as a means to skip exposition so they can get right into the action.

Plus this information isn't presented in TFA (the film) it comes from the novel if I understand correctly.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Joek3rr, I think -- if I may presume, Psab -- that he and I are kinda coming from the same place. There are some terrific ideas in Star Wars throughout, but the execution/realization of those on screen has varied wildly. Structural and/or thematic dropped balls, things that should happen onscreen but don't, things that should happen offscreen but don't, things that should be left to the audience to connect the dots but are dumbed down and laboriously spelled out, things that require a little more context or explanation (or even just a different camera angle) but the audience is denied that crucial need-to-know information, obviously my story-compression gripe, etc.

Both he and I have apparently grown increasingly impatient with those lapses on the parts of the creative Powers That Be, but I seem to still find more enjoyment in current Star Wars than he does. He seems to be about where I got to with Trek in the early 2000s. I have only, in fits and starts, been finding my way back into enjoyment of that fandom (beyond just re-watching the older shows and movies) just in the last year or two.

He and I both try to get people to not blindly accept bad story delivery, and call out those missteps. I don't think he or I are saying "it's stupid and you're stupid for liking It". Most of what you've posted I agree with -- ish. The meanings and parallels and character arcs and so forth, I understand and can mostly accept. The disconnect is that a lot of stuff that seems obvious to you on those points isn't, or fewer people would have missed them in the films. Sure, there's a statistical percentage of "haters gonna hate", but there's also a lot of people -- including in these threads -- who missed what something signified, or who that character was, or what was happening here, or whatever. Moreso, I feel, than with the OT or PT.

Some of it may be cultural -- people being less filmically literate than in decades past -- as some of these points I and others caught/understood on first viewing easily, where many are still popping up expressing confusion. But a lot is on the filmmakers. A lot of the points you lay out require delving into the ancillary material -- even if it's just the film's novelization -- and aren't explicit onscreen. And it shouldn't be that way. That stuff should be there to fill in detail and such, not be essential reading for apprehension of the basic plot.

 

[Joek3rr]

In the context of the Matrix it works because the characters are living inside a computer simulation so based on that idea it makes perfect sense. Especially since the final confrontation takes place within the Matrix itself.

I don't think it works in the ST because we've watched Luke training in A New Hope and Empire, and even though they only talked about training in the PT they did stress it's importance to the Jedi mindset and lifestyle.

Having Rey "download" some of her skills through her mind meld with Kylo Ren, to me, it undermines what had been established in the previous films. It comes across as a means to skip exposition so they can get right into the action.

Plus this information isn't presented in TFA (the film) it comes from the novel if I understand correctly.

I think there's some misconceptions about the Force. Kinda wish Lucasfilm would make a 'The Force 101', but then that would take alot of the mystery and magic out of the Force. Let me see if I can articulate how I see this.

When we see Luke and his struggles with the Force. As he's trying to grasp what's going on. There's a distinct difference between Luke and Rey. I don't believe Luke was consciously aware of the Force within him, not until he met Obi-Wan at the age of 19. Compared to Rey who says she's always been aware of a somthing within her. So at 19 Rey has a jump start on Luke and possibly even Anakin. Luke on the other hand is going through the stages that a young child might. We've seen little kids who seem to have a better understanding of the Force, and have a better grasp on things like telekinesis, then Luke.

Furthermore there's this emphasis on Force powers, by many in the fandom, like they are the endall of the Force. They kinda loose their minds when Rey does telekinesis or mind tricks. But as Luke says the Force isn't about lifting rocks. Or as Rian is fond of saying, "The Force isn't a super power." It's something more. The ability to lift objects with ones mind, or enfluence other minds, is so trivial. Those things are merely the tip of the tip of the Force iceberg. As I've said, we've seen little kids with no training show the ability to use telekinesis.

And really when you look at Rey and what she has done. It's not all that impressive. She's a gifted pilot, so with a little assist from the Force, flying the Falcon is no big thing. Much like Luke or Anakin before her. Her victory over Ben isn't much different. She's a skilled warrior already. Very adept with the usage of the staff. So again with a some assistance from the Force, her defeating a wounded(both physically and emotionally) and bleeding Ben Solo, isn't much of a feat.(You know what is though? Luke defeating a Sith Lord with only 5 minutes of on screen training) I dare say if you put those two in arena, stripped them of their Force powers and gave them staffs, she'd still win. And her lifting a ton of rocks, is nothing impressive either. With size not mattering, I'd imagine that "broom boy" could do the same. Now could Rey have lifted those rocks while fighting off a hundred stormtroopers? No, she doesn't of the control. She has the raw power of the Force, but no control.

So I don't see what they have shown to undermine anything that has come before. If anything it's expanded what I've seen in the previous films, The Clone Wars and Rebels.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Oh man. *Grabs Star Wars Sequels and shakes them like an Etch A Sketch*

 

[Psab keel]

If you think internal consistency in a fictional universe is "optional", or whatever, you're as bad as Braga. You have to be mindful of what came before, whether you agree with it or not, for that universe to have any perceived "reality" to it. Can't just ignore it to blithely tell whatever stories you want to tell, or it ends up a disjointed mess no one cares about. Oh, wait...

I consider one of the hallmarks of a good writer to be how well they work within an established fictional history of a fictional universe they're getting to play in.

Joek3rr, I think -- if I may presume, Psab -- that he and I are kinda coming from the same place. There are some terrific ideas in Star Wars throughout, but the execution/realization of those on screen has varied wildly. Structural and/or thematic dropped balls, things that should happen onscreen but don't, things that should happen offscreen but don't, things that should be left to the audience to connect the dots but are dumbed down and laboriously spelled out, things that require a little more context or explanation (or even just a different camera angle) but the audience is denied that crucial need-to-know information, obviously my story-compression gripe, etc.

Both he and I have apparently grown increasingly impatient with those lapses on the parts of the creative Powers That Be, but I seem to still find more enjoyment in current Star Wars than he does. He seems to be about where I got to with Trek in the early 2000s. I have only, in fits and starts, been finding my way back into enjoyment of that fandom (beyond just re-watching the older shows and movies) just in the last year or two.

He and I both try to get people to not blindly accept bad story delivery, and call out those missteps. I don't think he or I are saying "it's stupid and you're stupid for liking It". Most of what you've posted I agree with -- ish. The meanings and parallels and character arcs and so forth, I understand and can mostly accept. The disconnect is that a lot of stuff that seems obvious to you on those points isn't, or fewer people would have missed them in the films. Sure, there's a statistical percentage of "haters gonna hate", but there's also a lot of people -- including in these threads -- who missed what something signified, or who that character was, or what was happening here, or whatever. Moreso, I feel, than with the OT or PT.

Some of it may be cultural -- people being less filmically literate than in decades past -- as some of these points I and others caught/understood on first viewing easily, where many are still popping up expressing confusion. But a lot is on the filmmakers. A lot of the points you lay out require delving into the ancillary material -- even if it's just the film's novelization -- and aren't explicit onscreen. And it shouldn't be that way. That stuff should be there to fill in detail and such, not be essential reading for apprehension of the basic plot.

Both statements are not only eloquently stated but truly apt to my overall criticism of the new Star Wars material. Inquisitor Peregrinus I do believe, regardless of our tastes in this series we do understand one another with regards to our perception of story structure and I respect your willingness to see both sides of the concepts being discussed.

Just to reiterate I don't think anyone is stupid for liking The Last Jedi. I'm simply critical of the execution of said movie and Rian Johnson's ideas, not the fans of his movie. I'm also highly critical of Johnson's tendency to attack his critics over twitter, but that is another matter that has more to do with our current culture than with the movie.

Joek3rr here are several points to consider:

While it is true that the Force is not a power the Jedi have, our only connection to the idea as an audience witnessing the story on screen is through the physical actions of Jedi characters tapping into that energy field to do extraordinary things. So even though the Force is not technically a super power the Jedi or Sith have, in a way it kind of is because to understand an esoteric concept like that without bogging down the script with heavy exposition, it's used to allow our protagonists to do amazing things to give the story momentum.

Rey can't be her own guide character. It's a violation of the Hero's Journey. Han didn't teach her anything and Luke only taught her two(ish) things before she up and left because he wouldn't teach her more. So she's had two ineffective guides which have left her on her own having gained no knowledge to help her on her journey other than to rely on herself, effectively grinding the momentum of her story to a halt because she's made no emotional progress. Now we are at the final chapter of this new trilogy and Rey has no further insight into her abilities. The guide's purpose on the journey is to impart previously unknown wisdom (knowledge of the Force) to the protagonist so they might use that knowledge to attain their goal. Rey cannot impart wisdom to herself that she already possesses because it resolves her character flaw/ conflict.

If Rey's entire journey was for her to not rely on anyone but herself then she could have just stayed on Jakku. Problem solved. She also has a mastery of the Force so no problem to solve there either. She doesn't need Luke. She doesn't need her parents, or Finn, Poe or the Resistance.

Also by saying that the Force is controlling Rey as an act of its own will her robs her of any agency in the story by making her a puppet. By that logic even I can say Rey has more substance as a character than that.

 

[Joek3rr]

Rey can't be her own guide character. It's a violation of the Hero's Journey. Han didn't teach her anything and Luke only taught her two(ish) things before she up and left because he wouldn't teach her more. So she's had two ineffective guides which have left her on her own having gained no knowledge to help her on her journey other than to rely on herself, effectively grinding the momentum of her story to a halt because she's made no emotional progress. Now we are at the final chapter of this new trilogy and Rey has no further insight into her abilities. The guide's purpose on the journey is to impart previously unknown wisdom (knowledge of the Force) to the protagonist so they might use that knowledge to attain their goal. Rey cannot impart wisdom to herself that she already possesses because it resolves her character flaw/ conflict.

If Rey's entire journey was for her to not rely on anyone but herself then she could have just stayed on Jakku. Problem solved. She also has a mastery of the Force so no problem to solve there either. She doesn't need Luke. She doesn't need her parents, or Finn, Poe or the Resistance.

Rey has two guides. Maz then Luke. Maz is the one who tells Rey to let the Force that's always been there, to let it. Let it guide her. With the pay off to that advice coming at the climax of TFA when Rey does just that.

Oh man, you're so close. Indeed Rey's journey is for her to rely on herself. That's what the hero's journey is. It's an analog for becoming an adult. It's the story of growing up, discovering who you are, what's your place in this, becoming a responsible adult.

And Rey does not have mastery of the Force. One mind trick and a little bit of telekinesis is far far far from having mastery of the Force. Very far.

 

[Psab keel]

She is not struggling at all to use the Force which equates to mastery of it. There is nowhere for her to go emotionally and as an audience member I can't relate to her because it feels like her goal as a character is leading nowhere. I'm sorry but I think you missed my whole point about the Force being a super power. How else do you demonstrate to the audience that someone is a master of the Force? By using powers, that's how. If the goal is to master the force within herself then she's already accomplished that goal. And for her to not have to rely on anyone but herself means no other characters matter but her. So why is this trilogy not a one woman show? Do you see what I'm driving at? Plus there is no risk at all in turning to the dark side which means even if there was something to be gleaned from Luke, she is never tempted to use her powers for selfish reasons. Which is HUGE because if it's a risk free money back guarantee then she is an advertisement and not a well developed character. If there is no risk, then there is no conflict and no conflict means no story.

Rey's entire existence and goal as a character doesn't require knowledge from any other character which means she learns nothing and by extension the audience learns nothing. So there is no story to tell. She accomplishes her goals just by existing not by learning things from other characters which to me is a cop out from a writing stand point. The choices she makes have zero impact on the other characters. Her emotional journey is occurring in a vacuum, totally isolated from everyone else. She is not involved at all with the attack on Starkiller base by the Resistance which is the entire subplot of TFA and when she finds Luke to try and bring him back in TLJ she isn't able to convince him to return to the fight. Luke does come back (in my opinion in the laziest way possible) but it's actually Yoda who convinces Luke to come back, not Rey.

As for guide characters, while Maz does on the surface offer advice to Rey, she only appears in one scene and is not actually accompanying Rey on her journey so she can't be the guide character because the guide is there from the outset of the journey ferrying the hero across the threshold from the known world to the unknown world. The Force itself can't be Rey's guide character because it's a concept and not a character. You need a character to be able to explain that concept to the protagonist in order for them to learn what it means to them and to stress it's importance to the overall story.

On the surface Rey's journey appears similar to Luke's but there are structural cracks in the foundation of this new trilogy because the elements that make it up are either vague, disjointed, or omitted altogether for the sake of creating mystery to keep us watching, rather than giving us an emotional anchor to hold onto. As Inquisitor Peregrinus has pointed out things that should be included aren't and things that should be cut are stressed as having great importance. You can bake a loaf of bread with some of the same ingredients that you would use to bake a cake, but the results are two different foods. The same applies here.

I'm trying my best to keep my answers short and straight to the point, but it's not easy to distill these ideas down to simple examples because on the surface the Sequel Trilogy may look like the Original Trilogy but if you really break it down it's structure it's missing key ingredients or the wrong ingredients are substituted resulting in something else entirely.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I didn't have a problem with Rey until TLJ. Rey gets the Force on day one and on day two has mastered it. Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One and possibly the most powerful Force user ever (if he kept all his parts anyway), and even he had to have ten years of training to learn to use it. If there was some kind of instant Force knowledge, and anyone would have had it, it would have been Anakin and not Rey. That's why it never made sense to me.

Like a lot of things with these movies it seems like they were completely making it up on the fly and didn't really think things through much. Either that or they showed a complete ignorance of the previous material. Rey seems like they had a character and they knew the direction they wanted to go in, but didn't want to put in the writing work to make it happen. They just rammed it in there.

 

[Joek3rr]

She is not struggling at all to use the Force which equates to mastery of it.

By that metric then Obi-Wan and Anakin must have complete mastery of the Force. Because we never see them struggle with it. On the other hand Grand Master Yoda must still be learning, because he does struggle with it. The problem here is your using Luke as your metric, as your base line. Understsble since he's from the first film. But we've seen people that were younger than him and who "knew" more about the Force.

The Force itself can't be Rey's guide character because it's a concept and not a character.

Both Qui-Gon and Maz contradict this.
" They[midi-chlorians] continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."
"The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."
While the Force may not be "normal" character. It is almost like a character. When writing it out, we capitalize the first letter like a proper name or title. And it has its own theme music that is played when the will of the Force is at work.

Plus there is no risk at all in turning to the dark side which means even if there was something to be gleaned from Luke, she is never tempted to use her powers for selfish reasons.

Aside from her Dark Side trip in TLJ, Rey isn't going to go through those Dark Side temptations. For all intents and purposes she's the embodiment of the Light Side. Her function is to be a Rey of light to Ben's darkness. It's not an accident that in TFA the only glimmer of light shinning on Ben's face shines past Rey.

She is not involved at all with the attack on Starkiller base by the Resistance which is the entire subplot of TFA and when she finds Luke to try and bring him back in TLJ she isn't able to convince him to return to the fight. Luke does come back (in my opinion in the laziest way possible) but it's actually Yoda who convinces Luke to come back, not Rey.

If you remember Rey is captured and is on Starkiller base. So of course she isn't a involved in the attack. She's one of the reasons they are there. But with that said she is the one who get the door open to the thermal oscillator. (Laziest way possible? Eh Luke only did the most Jedi/Joseph Campbell thing ever in Star Wars)

On the surface Rey's journey appears similar to Luke's but there are structural cracks in the foundation of this new trilogy because the elements that make it up are either vague, disjointed, or omitted altogether for the sake of creating mystery to keep us watching, rather than giving us an emotional anchor to hold onto. As Inquisitor Peregrinus has pointed out things that should be included aren't and things that should be cut are stressed as having great importance. You can bake a loaf of bread with some of the same ingredients that you would use to bake a cake, but the results are two different foods. The same applies here.


I'm trying my best to keep my answers short and straight to the point, but it's not easy to distill these ideas down to simple examples because on the surface the Sequel Trilogy may look like the Original Trilogy but if you really break it down it's structure it's missing key ingredients or the wrong ingredients are substituted resulting in something else entirely.

So this morning I was doing some reading on the Hero's Journey. I suddenly I was struck by something. You are right, the Hero's Journey doesn't fit Rey. The Hero's Journey is for the Hero, but Rey isn't a Hero, she's a Heroine. Could it be the problem is we are tying to look at Rey through lens of a man's journey, when we should be looking at Rey through the lens of woman's journey? Just some food for thought.

Yeah, it's hard to keep these answers short and sweet. I apologize for the ramblings.

 

[Joek3rr]

I didn't have a problem with Rey until TLJ. Rey gets the Force on day one and on day two has mastered it. Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One and possibly the most powerful Force user ever (if he kept all his parts anyway), and even he had to have ten years of training to learn to use it. If there was some kind of instant Force knowledge, and anyone would have had it, it would have been Anakin and not Rey. That's why it never made sense to me.

Like a lot of things with these movies it seems like they were completely making it up on the fly and didn't really think things through much. Either that or they showed a complete ignorance of the previous material. Rey seems like they had a character and they knew the direction they wanted to go in, but didn't want to put in the writing work to make it happen. They just rammed it in there.

Day one? Day two?
"The light. It's always been there." It will guide you." "Something inside me has always been there. But now it's awake."

So what exactly is the difference between TFA Rey and TLJ Rey? How has she mastered the Force? In TFA she uses telekinesis, and in TLJ she uses telekinesis. Nothing has changed.

 

[Psab keel]

By that metric then Obi-Wan and Anakin must have complete mastery of the Force. Because we never see them struggle with it. On the other hand Grand Master Yoda must still be learning, because he does struggle with it. The problem here is your using Luke as your metric, as your base line. Understsble since he's from the first film. But we've seen people that were younger than him and who "knew" more about the Force.

-I'm using Luke as my metric because he has been the only protagonist of any of the three trilogies that I can relate to. I can relate to him because I empathize with his struggles and feel like his losses are mine. I feel like his triumphs are mine because I'm going on the emotional journey with him. I can't relate to Rey because she is able to accomplish her goals with ease and every time she seems to be in danger she quickly undoes the tension by escaping with no assistance from any of the other characters. Sure she has the Force, but again to me it's a cop out rather than have her struggle sometimes. Ask yourself this? What mistakes has she made along the way? Because if she hasn't made any, or if she hasn't failed at anything then how am I supposed to relate to that? I don't know about you, but I know I'm far from perfect.

I try not to reference any of the other material other than the two things I'm comparing. In this case I'm comparing the ST to the OT, so any examples in the ancillary material are irrelevant, and even the PT and Clone Wars/ Rebels stuff doesn't really apply to this discussion.
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Both Qui-Gon and Maz contradict this.
" They[midi-chlorians] continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."
"The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."
While the Force may not be "normal" character. It is almost like a character. When writing it out, we capitalize the first letter like a proper name or title. And it has its own theme music that is played when the will of the Force is at work.

-I can't relate to an impersonal energy field. I can relate to characters. Conceptually I understand what you're saying but again you need characters to expound this information because otherwise we have no emotional attachment to any of these ideas. Plus these are general statements you quoted. What is the will of the Force? Can an impersonal energy field have a will? That seems contradictory right there.

Aside from her Dark Side trip in TLJ, Rey isn't going to go through those Dark Side temptations. For all intents and purposes she's the embodiment of the Light Side. Her function is to be a Rey of light to Ben's darkness. It's not an accident that in TFA the only glimmer of light shinning on Ben's face shines past Rey.

-Then what is Rey's conflict? She is in no danger of ever turning to the Dark Side. She is never in danger of getting killed. If I never once fear for her or her struggle I can't relate to her. The only time I ever felt like Rey's life was at risk was when Kylo knocked her out and took her captive on his ship. But shortly after she resisted his mind probe and then escaped fairly easily from the torture chamber, effectively dispelling that tension. How is it that the audience is able to see that she is the protagonist of the story and yet Rey keeps acting like she is totally in the dark about what her place is?

Leia chose her to go find Luke at the end of 7 vs. going herself. Leia is so desperate to find Luke that she sends a total stranger to find her missing brother. That never sat right with me. Rey is the one who fights and defeats Kylo Ren at the end of the film. Rey is the one who leaves Jake Skywalker to try and redeem Ben Solo. She's taken charge time and time again, yet she doesn't know her place in the story? Please. That's absurd.



If you remember Rey is captured and is on Starkiller base. So of course she isn't a involved in the attack. She's one of the reasons they are there. But with that said she is the one who get the door open to the thermal oscillator. (Laziest way possible? Eh Luke only did the most Jedi/Joseph Campbell thing ever in Star Wars)

-Yes I think Luke's arc in The Last Jedi was terrible. It's my biggest contention with this new trilogy above all else, but I don't feel the need to reiterate that all over again. We'll just have to move past it.

So this morning I was doing some reading on the Hero's Journey. I suddenly I was struck by something. You are right, the Hero's Journey doesn't fit Rey. The Hero's Journey is for the Hero, but Rey isn't a Hero, she's a Heroine. Could it be the problem is we are tying to look at Rey through lens of a man's journey, when we should be looking at Rey through the lens of woman's journey? Just some food for thought.

- I don't think gender plays a role in any of this. You can apply the Hero's Journey to any film or piece of fiction and work out the basic cycle with ease. Let's not devolve the conversation into identity politics. I don't feel like running the risk of getting banned from the forums and I don't want you to run that risk either.

Yeah, it's hard to keep these answers short and sweet. I apologize for the ramblings.

-It is tough to keep it simple. I agree. Just when I think I've covered everything something else comes to mind.