Personally I think it was just so successful, far surpassing even George's wildest dreams to the point where even the creator himself couldn't escape it's shadow and he just decided that if it was THIS much of a hit that perhaps it was meant to be more than just a throwback type space opera movie.

I don't know if this is going to make much sense. I've got a nasty cold, so my head isn't quite right, so apologize if this doesn't make any sense.

What you said reminds a little of something said by Rick Carter co-production designer of 'The Force Awakens', in the Forword of 'The Art of The Force Awakens'.

"As a co-production designer of The Force Awakens, I knew that for me to discover what Star Wars is and it is not, I have to meet with its creator. When I first met George in December of 2012, it was clear that we would be embarking on an inter-generational hand-off. I was for some guidance as to how he viewed through process of letting it all go and where to explore further. In a very Yoda-like manner, he mentioned something to me at the end of out talk that struck me as significant: When he was a younger filmmaker, images appeared to him as if he were looking through binoculars- very close and very vivid. Now that he was getting older, imagery appeared as if the binoculars were turned around and he was seeing it all from a greater distance, with a deeper perspective. I thought that this was profound visual point of reference for him to express, and I think it represents why he's been able to let Star Wars go, to see if it has life beyond him. Of course, even in his movies, George has introduced the dimension of an afterlife. Before Obi-Wan Kenobi sacrifices himself to Darth Vader, he predicts, "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."..........This is how George Lucas, in letting us take over from him, is becoming "more powerful than" perhaps even he could once imagine. His binocular-lens vision of the Star Wars galaxy, which we are now continuing to express, does not show a place that is so "long ago" or "far, far away." It is as it has always been: right now, and very close.
 
Interesting. Though I think the profound impact that the first film made was something wholly unexpected even by Lucas. Sure George is going to be looking back on his creation from a distance and part of that is that he is in his twilight years and that automatically will cause anyone to be reflective on their life and work.

The thing that troubles me about that forward is that it further illustrates this new approach to the story telling in this series. Where George was looking for his trilogy to be an homage to a simpler time when good and evil were very clearly defined the stories in the newer installments are more concerned with exploring morally ambiguous territory. While that can make for interesting stories, Star Wars was never really about that. That was partly what made it so timeless.


What’s harder to say is how exactly the new films are different—how movies like Skywalker keep their connection to the past while at the same time finding a way to belong to the world of 2019. Because regardless of whether or not Star Wars has changed since 1977, the world around it has, profoundly. -Vanity Fair

-In order for Star Wars to survive it must evolve, but does it need to evolve to the point where it no longer resembles what made it stand out from other space adventure films? Star Wars was a breath of fresh air when compared to the cynicism of the late 1970s. It could have had the same effect today that it did then had it been handled better. Are we not cynical about those in power or the state of the world? Rey and company don't strike me as the breath of fresh air that they ought to because we are constantly reminded at how much of a failure Luke, Han, and Leia were by creating the mess that Rey has to clean up. None of that strikes me as hopeful at all.

There is enough cynicism in the world. Now the fun escapism of this kooky space adventure series embraces that disenchantment as though it's some sort of virtue. It's not. It's easy to be cynical. It's far harder to be hopeful in a world that feels like there is no hope. Everyone seems content to be a victim rather than a victor. Star Wars was about rebelling against the disenchantment of the culture around it. Now all it seems to be about is embracing that pessimism as it's central theme and touting that it's hopeful because it can fix perceived wrongs.

The new generation doesn’t have that same connection to the old days that Luke and Leia did. It’s not like their parents destroyed the Old Republic. We don’t even know who their parents were! They’re too young to remember the Empire. They’re just here to clean up the mess they got left with, the disastrous consequences of bad decisions made by earlier generations, and try to survive long enough to see the future. Is any of this resonating with 2019? Might there possibly be a generation around here somewhere that’s worried about the consequences of its own decisions for the future? Star Wars has never been and probably never should be a vehicle for political arguments, but to paraphrase Ursula Le Guin, great science fiction is never really about the future. It’s about the present. -Vanity Fair

-First off, it's space fantasy, not science fiction, and secondly this kind of thinking is what is ruining the magic of the series. If they want to ensure that these movies will not stand the test of time, you mire them in the politics and cynical attitudes of the present. Lucas was genius enough to allude to historic idealogies but kept the references vague enough where they didn't overshadow Star Wars hopeful message. To me these new films seem content to tear down the old and replace it with the new all the while trying to convince people that perhaps what they watched growing up wasn't as special as it seemed.

Star Wars takes place a long time ago, in a galaxy, far, far away. It sure doesn't feel that way anymore. It feels like it's taking place right now and that is a sure fire way to guarantee that it will one day feel dated. Star Wars was timeless because it dealt with themes that were not only universal but were eternal. Anyone, from any sex, creed or culture could relate to it. That's what all the great myths have done and it's why they are always relevant.

Twenty years from now this sequel trilogy will not be relevant. It's just a shame that only now at the end do they finally admit what so many of us suspected all along in that they aimed from the beginning to change the themes of the series to fit a certain narrative that is trending in the current culture and they used Star Wars to do it.
 
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In order for Star Wars to survive it must evolve, but does it need to evolve to the point where it no longer resembles what made it stand out from other space adventure films? Star Wars was a breath of fresh air when compared to the cynicism of the late 1970s. It could have had the same effect today that it did then had it been handled better. Are we not cynical about those in power or the state of the world? Rey and company don't strike me as the breath of fresh air that they ought to because we are constantly reminded at how much of a failure Luke, Han, and Leia were by creating the mess that Rey has to clean up. None of that strikes me as hopeful at all.
There is enough cynicism in the world. Now the fun escapism of this kooky space adventure series embraces that disenchantment as though it's some sort of virtue. It's not. It's easy to be cynical. It's far harder to be hopeful in a world that feels like there is no hope. Everyone seems content to be a victim rather than a victor. Star Wars was about rebelling against the disenchantment of the culture around it. Now all it seems to be about is embracing that pessimism as it's central theme and touting that it's hopeful because it can fix perceived wrongs.

Star Wars takes place a long time ago, in a galaxy, far, far away. It sure doesn't feel that way anymore. It feels like it's taking place right now and that is a sure fire way to guarantee that it will one day feel dated. Star Wars was timeless because it dealt with themes that were not only universal but were eternal. Anyone, from any sex, creed or culture coulThat's what all the great myths have done and it's why they are always relevant.

I am enjoying this Sequel Trilogy, but I've been where you are with the current state of SW, in the aftermath of the prequels. While we may disagree on the minutiae of some of your arguments, I appreciate the way you stated this, and I mostly agree. Yes, I'm on board with things right now, but I can't say I disagree with some of your broader points here. I'm glad you took the time to articulate them that way. Maybe I'm just withholding full judgment until the end, like I did with the prequels, but I definitely like these movies better than I ever liked those.
 
Thank you for your kind words. I'm happy that you and plenty of others enjoy the new films. I just don't feel the same way but it's nice that even if we disagree about it we can find common ground. As I mentioned earlier once I finish off my personal prop and costume pieces I'll likely be moving on to other things though I'll always love those original three films.
 
Thank you for your kind words. I'm happy that you and plenty of others enjoy the new films. I just don't feel the same way but it's nice that even if we disagree about it we can find common ground. As I mentioned earlier once I finish off my personal prop and costume pieces I'll likely be moving on to other things though I'll always love those original three films.
Until TFA, I said the same thing. "Star Wars isn't for me anymore. Meh. I'll always have the OT." Take heart, man. The Mandalorian looks super promising, across the board. There's always the hope that it can be the next SW content you can be happy about. :)(y)
 
I'm so torn over the Mandalorian! I like all the people involved, but I also don't have any interest for anything post ROTJ after TLJ. I'm going to wait until everyone watches it and if it's actually any good I might take a look. Again though if it's nowhere near as good as the EU Mandalorians I'll probably just skip that for my head canon.
 
I'm so torn over the Mandalorian! I like all the people involved, but I also don't have any interest for anything post ROTJ after TLJ. I'm going to wait until everyone watches it and if it's actually any good I might take a look. Again though if it's nowhere near as good as the EU Mandalorians I'll probably just skip that for my head canon.

You and I are in the same boat. I just don’t care anymore...
 
I've spent years hoping that whatever upcoming content will make up for whatever material I didn't care for only to be disappointed again and again. I'm done doing that. As for the Mandalorian, it looks promising but I doubt I would subscribe to their streaming service for one show. It's time for me to move on. There are other creative endeavors that I've let slip by the way side to make room for Star Wars. It's time I put an end to that.
 
Ever have a moment when you suddenly realize something and feel really dumb? I had one the other day. I was browsing the net for some The Lord of the Rings stuff and came across this.

"Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it."
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One of my favorite franchises was paying homage to another of my favorite franchises, and I didn't even notice it!
 
Ever have a moment when you suddenly realize something and feel really dumb? I had one the other day. I was browsing the net for some The Lord of the Rings stuff and came across this.

"Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it."
View attachment 1024160

One of my favorite franchises was paying homage to another of my favorite franchises, and I didn't even notice it!

I’m not being disrespectful but I wish I could stay awake when watching the LoTR’s

I have yet to see a full movie.. I always fall asleep

A the thing is is I WANT to see it, I just keep falling asleep

I’m also a huge gear head in real life, mostly drag racing and road racing.. sick me in front of the Indy 500 and I’m snoring away

I don’t get it lol
 
Halliwax I think the books are way better than the movies. I do not enjoy that Rey could use the force with NO TRAINING and the same for Leia in outer space. In physics she should have sucked out into space to the void. The atm in space is almost zero. She would have flown into the middle of all the ships. The amount of air would have killed her in a slow painful death but ok.
 
Halliwax I think the books are way better than the movies. I do not enjoy that Rey could use the force with NO TRAINING and the same for Leia in outer space. In physics she should have sucked out into space to the void. The atm in space is almost zero. She would have flown into the middle of all the ships. The amount of air would have killed her in a slow painful death but ok.

So a human being exposed to the vacuum of space will pass out after 15s. You have about 90s after they are exposed to resuscitate them. Add some space magic to that equation, and what Leia does is totally possible.

And as far as Rey not having any training. That's kinda a part of the mystery about her. I mean it's the will of the Force that she is able to do the things that she does. When you watch her doing these amazing feats, she goes from being a very frightened girl to something else just like that, almost like something is controlling her. In more detail, from the TLJ novel, we are told that when Rey found herself being able to not only push Ben out her mind but turn the tables on him. Their minds were briefly one and the same, she suddenly found that she knew how to do certain things. That's why she tells Finn she can't explain how she was able to escape. She just finds herself knowing how. It all plays into this idea that the Force is empowering her to Bens equal in the light. Neither can ever become more powerful than the other.
 
Leia flying in space was just stupid. Just plain stupid. Could she have had training from Luke between ROTJ and TFA? Sure. But they never once made any indication of that. Plus it was pretty convenient that she wasn't hit by the blast and didn't get evicerated by the debris. What she did was god like. And she did it with no effort at all. All it did was incapacitate the character because Rian Johnson didn't know how else to write Leia out of the way to make room for Holdo and Poe because his story was garbage. Plain and simple. It didn't serve the story in any other way but that and to make for a goofy looking visual. I would have had just as much of a problem watching Luke do the same thing. It was like watching a cartoon.

So if Rey can download all of her knowledge of the Force from Kylo Ren then why did every Jedi in history have to endure years of training? Why didn't they just mind meld and absorb their knowledge like Rey did? It seems far easier and quicker. And much, much lamer.

Watching Luke learn about the Force from Obi-Wan in A New Hope and Yoda in Empire was part of what made the idea so interesting in the first place. The Force feels like an afterthought in the ST rather than central to the plot.
 
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Leia flying in space was just stupid. Just plain stupid. Could she have had training from Luke between ROTJ and TFA? Sure. But they never once made any indication of that. Plus it was pretty convenient that she wasn't hit by the blast and didn't get evicerated by the debris. What she did was god like. And she did it with no effort at all. All it did was incapacitate the character because Rian Johnson didn't know how else to write Leia out of the way to make room for Holdo and Poe because his story was garbage. Plain and simple. It didn't serve the story in any other way but that and to make for a goofy looking visual. I would have had just as much of a problem watching Luke do the same thing. It was like watching a cartoon.

So if Rey can download all of her knowledge of the Force from Kylo Ren then why did every Jedi in history have to endure years of training? Why didn't they just mind meld and absorb their knowledge like Rey did? It seems far easier and quicker. And much, much lamer.

Watching Luke learn about the Force from Obi-Wan in A New Hope and Yoda in Empire was part of what made the idea so interesting in the first place. The Force feels like an afterthought in the ST rather than central to the plot.

She's the daughter of the Chosen One. And the void of space offers no resistance, so it would be easier than lifting a ball. And "Size matters not." So sure she should have been blown to bits, and our heroes should have been shot a thousand times by Stormtroopers by now. It's called plot armor, divine will, the will of the Force....
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And yeah it happens to her character so that the Holdo can enter the stage. Things conveniently happening in the movies is called a story. You know kinda how a conveniently timed collapsing ice tunnel forces, Han, to take Leia with him so that fall in love over the course of the film which leads them to get married have a kid that kid grows up and murders his father. ( I'm totally not going to watch that scene the same lol) Or how two droids can get separated, get picked up by the same group of Jawas and sold to, of all the people on Tatooine, Darth Vader's brother-in-law who's raising his adopted son.

Why didn't Jedi "download" their skills? Probably because it couldn't be done before. Remember the Force has had an awakening, the Force is flowing through the galaxy stronger than ever. (fun fact: according to the TFA Visual Dictionary the cosmic Force after ROTJ became dormant) And Rey connects with Ben, on a deep mental, emotional, and spiritual level. They suddenly know more about each other better then some spouses do. And I'm pretty sure the Jedi of old would frown on such deep connections, might lead to attachments, and attachments are forbidden.

One of the elements in the ST is this idea that the Force is doing things, working through people on a level not seen before(or a long time?)
 
I can much easier accept the tunnel in the ice cave collapsing as a result of it being bombarded by laser fire or that R2 and 3PO could get picked up by the same Jawas considering that they were both traveling on foot as it were within several hours of one another, than I could buy Leia flying through space. Your examples are much more plausible than what Leia did in that scene. By a long shot. I can suspend my disbelief even for a story with space wizards but if they are just going to have people doing the impossible to that degree then I tend to mentally check out. It's like watching Bugs Bunny. For all of the fanciful things in Star Wars there has to be SOME sense of danger otherwise where is the tension that will keep me watching. Leia survived that incident with no injuries save being unconscious for a few hours and having a bandage on her head. She's a cartoon at that point. Why should I care? She can survive anything. Holdo was a poor substitute for Leia anyway.

Why is Rey capable of doing this and no other Jedi? So for a thousand generations Jedi trained for their entire lives to master the Force and Rey can just absorb all this knowledge through one fleeting interaction with a half trained dark side user? C'mon. That undermines the established history of the entire order because no one else has been able to do that. Regardless of the fact that it could lead to attachment, no Jedi or Sith ever thought to even attempt it? Because if I were a Sith I would have gone around downloading all kind of Sith knowledge and amassing enough power to take over the galaxy. You see how this is a problem? These ideas BEG the question, why has no one else done it before now?

There is nothing to suggest that the Force is suddenly more powerful than it ever was. It's an impersonal energy field. If there is life in this galaxy then the Force is present. Pure and simple. The Force flowing through the galaxy stronger than ever. What does that even mean? Either it's there or it's not.

These ideas may sound neat on the surface but when you really think about them, no matter how many books or ancillary material try to legitimize them, they are just poorly thought out. It's often the result of having an interesting concept and working on overdrive to justify it when it actually detracts from your story. Continuity is important. You can't establish ideas in earlier parts of your story only to change them to make for a neat scene without having your audience get annoyed with you. It's like everyone follows in George's footsteps and changes concepts as long as it looks cool with no regard to how it affects the overall story. It's irritating beyond belief. Rather than flesh something out based on earlier chapters of the story they just change them because they can't come up with something that fits within the same context and develop it to have new meaning.

I had lots of ideas I thought would make for a cool scene in my book but ultimately if I have to come up with all kinds of explanations that bog down the pace or contradict the main focus of the story, they get cut. It's the difference between mediocre writing and good writing.

Maybe you don't expect much from your stories and that's a matter of personal taste, but if they insist on making more stories with these characters then I expect that they would make good creative choices. I feel that they dropped the ball.

Though this was in another thread I felt that it applies to this topic too: Inquisitor Peregrinus

If you think internal consistency in a fictional universe is "optional", or whatever, you're as bad as Braga. :p You have to be mindful of what came before, whether you agree with it or not, for that universe to have any perceived "reality" to it. Can't just ignore it to blithely tell whatever stories you want to tell, or it ends up a disjointed mess no one cares about. Oh, wait...

I consider one of the hallmarks of a good writer to be how well they work within an established fictional history of a fictional universe they're getting to play in.


We've debated this accursed movie to death. Do we really need to retread the same arguments over and over? I get that you love it. I absolutely hate it. We will never see eye to eye on it and I'm ok with that. Let's move on shall we?
 
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So a human being exposed to the vacuum of space will pass out after 15s. You have about 90s after they are exposed to resuscitate them. Add some space magic to that equation, and what Leia does is totally possible.

And as far as Rey not having any training. That's kinda a part of the mystery about her. I mean it's the will of the Force that she is able to do the things that she does. When you watch her doing these amazing feats, she goes from being a very frightened girl to something else just like that, almost like something is controlling her. In more detail, from the TLJ novel, we are told that when Rey found herself being able to not only push Ben out her mind but turn the tables on him. Their minds were briefly one and the same, she suddenly found that she knew how to do certain things. That's why she tells Finn she can't explain how she was able to escape. She just finds herself knowing how. It all plays into this idea that the Force is empowering her to Bens equal in the light. Neither can ever become more powerful than the other.

The atmospheric pressure (atm) on Earth is 101325 pascal, so in pounds per square inch its 14.696 psi, now is space pounds per square inch its 0.0001917398892840186. Its not even close. Pressure is because of the stuff ie atoms that is giving the force of pressure, without atoms there is no pressure. PV=nrT (P=pressure, V=volume, n=8.314 J/(K. mol), r=0.08206 l atm/mol k OR 1.987 cal/mol K) when V=0 and r=0.08206 l atm/mol k (liters, pressure/amount of stuff Kelvin) n=8.314 J/(K. mol) it would equal= {P X .1 per square centimeter=8.314 0.2/(4.X.1) X 0.08206 (0.0001917398892840186 X 0./0.1 X 4) X 4}=.1 atom per square centimeter ie in inches (psi) =.6. That is for P. Even with the best force she still could not do it. Sorry about the calculations, I am exhausted, if you need more evidence I can show you in the right way. Anyhow even if she did have the best force her eyes would explode immediately after she went into space.
 
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