Lets talk all things Star Wars
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Wolfsburg
Master Member
I disagree. Real world budgetary/tech reasons or not, the OT looks the way it does and the PT should've adhered to that, imo. Even from a practical standpoint, OT combat craft especially could've benefited from fancy PT cockpit displays and yet they are nowhere to be seen. For whatever faults it has, Disney has at least made an attempt to maintain many of the aesthetics the OT established. I don't think people have had major issues with that. Andor has done a great job with it and yes you see the interior of a TIE fighter and it has the same layout as it did in the OT.
I see it as not so different as the cyberpunk aesthetic of the Bladerunner movies. I thought the newer movie did a wonderful job maintaining that same aesthetic as the original. I don't recall anyone complaining that it looked dated. We just accept that's what their tech and aesthetics look like in that world.
I'm not saying that unique designs shouldn't have been used, as with the Naboo and their hood ornament inspired ships, but I would've much rather George gone back to the old, unused concept art where it made sense. Such as the Republic transitioning into the proto-Empire, I would've loved to have seen the clones wearing the early stormtrooper armor concepts, and early TIEs and ISD concepts being used as well. They look more clunky and primitive allowing for the OT ships and armors to look evolved and more advanced. Sadly, the wide array of walkers, gunships, droids, etc all looked more advanced than anything the OT Empire (or Rebels) had, which makes little sense to me, thematically.
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Is this pic from Iraq in 1991?
Or is it from Afghanistan in 2021?
The US has the most expensive & advanced military in human history. After 30 years of war/occupation, the vehicles haven't changed enough for most of us to call it. And we are natives in this time & place. Imagine a person from the 1800s trying to judge the vehicle chronology.
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Wolfsburg
Master Member
Well your argument would make sense if the tech in the PT and OT looked identical on a developmental level but they don't. So much of what we see in the PT looks far ahead of anything we see in the OT and that makes no sense. That's the whole point. I could just as easily give you Vietnam pics and Desert Storm pics (20 years apart) and you can clearly see technology had advanced in that time period. Even if George had just shown us tech that was identical to what we saw in the OT (same star destroyers, same stormtrooper armor, etc), it would've made more sense than what we got and jibe more with your argument that nothing changed. My argument is that it makes no sense why technology seemed to devolve in the 20 years after the PT as presented. The Battle of Coruscant looked far more in the future than the Battle of Endor, despite it taking place 25 years earlier.
All that aside, from a purely thematic standpoint, I personally just think it would've just been way more fun to see the early concepts and OT aesthetics reworked to show earlier versions of what we saw in the OT, even if it isn't "realistic". George's visual direction in the PT just didn't work for me. The multitude of droids, ships, weapons, visual displays, walkers, gunships, etc etc etc. looked way beyond the tech in the OT and I've just never liked that.
Joek3rr
Master Member
George wanted the Republic to have more culture and art. Compared to the Empire. So visually the ships reflect that. Particularly the ships of the Naboo. By the time Palpatine comes into power, the Republic starts to lose that art and color. That's the external aesthetics though.
When it comes to the tech itself. Honestly, the Prequels don't look that horribly advanced. Aside from advancements in real-world tech. Look at the animated targeting computers in the OT. They are going for a semi-holographic look.
Heck, the Eta-2 uses the same targeting computer visual as a TIE. The most advanced cockpits are that of the ARC-170 and Delta-7. But only because it's displayed on glass, like an actual HUD. Excuse the use of Battlefront II, but they have nice accurate cockpits that we can see fully.
We can see a lot of the same graphical styles and details like that on the Falcon and the X-wing torpedo computer. Same with the Naboo starfighter, though adjusted to fit the aesthetics of the Naboo.
When it comes to the tech itself. Honestly, the Prequels don't look that horribly advanced. Aside from advancements in real-world tech. Look at the animated targeting computers in the OT. They are going for a semi-holographic look.
Heck, the Eta-2 uses the same targeting computer visual as a TIE. The most advanced cockpits are that of the ARC-170 and Delta-7. But only because it's displayed on glass, like an actual HUD. Excuse the use of Battlefront II, but they have nice accurate cockpits that we can see fully.
We can see a lot of the same graphical styles and details like that on the Falcon and the X-wing torpedo computer. Same with the Naboo starfighter, though adjusted to fit the aesthetics of the Naboo.
Vietnam was 50+ years ago and that was a different time. In the 1960s the idea of using 1920s aircraft for warfare was crazy, because there had been 40 years of rapid advancement from the 20s-60s. Whereas today they use lots of 40yo aircraft designs because things have slowed down.
I dunno how much more advanced the PT ships look. I think the main glaring difference is looking more stylized, and that's easy to excuse IMO.
Some of the PT tech does seem better than the OT and you have a point with those issues.
Of course it's probably down to George just wanting to indulge when he made the PT. Being a slave to continuity is no fun for a creative type. And to be fair, there's no telling how many of those ideas he might have done back in the OT if the effects tech & budgets had been there.
Yeah, the PT had a general problem with visual overkill. Too much stuff on the screen all the time. And when the stuff is mostly CGI it makes your eyes kinda glaze over. After the movie you barely even remember half of what was on the screen.
But I think that problem was less about the PT's fictional tech and more of a filmmaking issue. Back in 1983 the ROTJ Death Star battle was already bordering on overload. George should have held it there.
Look at the asteroid scenes in ESB versus AOTC. Asteroids don't have any tech and yet the ESB scene worked better. It was down to filmmaking differences.
Wolfsburg
Master Member
I think you've hit the nail right on the head with this. He clearly didn't want to be creatively constrained with the PT and continuity went right out the window, to the detriment in my opinion.
We literally go from seeker missles and torpedoes nimbly weaving and bobbing, hot on the tail of our heroes' fighters to a pilot 20 years later declaring that even with the help of a computer, a 3 meter exhaust port couldn't be hit. In fact, he might've been right since it appears that only the intervention of the Force allowed Luke to do it. Star Wars tech has always been odd and full of contradictions but the PT didn't help things, imo.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
To be fair, the fighter that nimbly weaved and bobbed away from Jango's seeker missiles was being flown by a jedi knight who is very proficient with the force. We dont know how amazing their reactions are but untrained Anakin could fly a pod racer no problem (although he is the one so maybe his competence untrained is equivalent to a decently trained jedi?). Jango Fett is also one of the best bounty hunters in the galaxy and got a nice paycheck from Kamino to buy those seeker missiles.
By OT, we dont have amazing jedi pilots and the Rebels are probably running on a shoestring budget so them having pretty substandard equipment isnt too surprising. I did find it weird that with ST, the resistance still seems to be on a shoestring budget when they are the guys in power.
PT could have done a better job making the ships look less fancy and sleek but the jedi fighters in episode 2 did have designs similar to A-wings (and given that A-wings are supposed to be really fast so maybe they were made for jedi with their already superhuman reflexes) and the ships by episode 3 did start looking more blocky like the ships in OT.
Wolfsburg
Master Member
Well I was thinking more of The Battle of Coruscant and the fact that there are missles that could even stick with the nimble fighters of our expert Force-enhanced pilots for as long as they did is notable. Sure seemed like they gave them a run for their money. The Rebel pilot (the non Denis Lawson Wedge, I think it was?) who made the claim that it was impossible, seemed to be speaking about computers across the board. Surely he would be knowledgeable enough to be aware of what fighter armament is generally capable of. Of course Luke pipes up and claims he could shoot similarly-sized womp rats in a T-16 so maybe Wedge is a moron lol For that matter, the buzzdroids, robots that literally rip enemy ships apart, along with most of the CSA offerings, seemed far more advanced and innovative that anything we saw in the OT...
You guys have to remember that the missiles in the Prequels were fired at fighters. They shouldn't have any problem tracking and trying to intercept. They are certainly more maneuverable than real world missiles. The Death Star exhaust port was at a right angle to the trench. I think that's why these said a targeting computer couldn't hit it, because the computer couldn't see it because it was on the "floor" of the trench. They presumably couldn't hit it from above because there would be way too much laser fire so that's why they used the trench for cover. Maybe what Luke actually did with the Force is nudge the torpedo's rear end to get it to turn into the port?
Wolfsburg
Master Member
That'd be my guess. Makes as much sense as anything!
Joek3rr
Master Member
Traditionally concussion missiles are far agile and have better tracking then proton torpedoes. However missiles generally do less damage. Torpedoes don't have much in the way of guidance and aren't very agile. But they are incredibly powerful.
No they're not. Leia was drummed out of the New Republic Senate when her true parentage was revealed and her attempts to warn about the First Order dismissed as a fear-mongering power-grab, in the vein of her real father. Those who believed in her left to support her, or still quietly supported her from within the government, but the Resistance was definitely hurting for stable resources. They were flying fifteen-year-old military surplus, or older. They had second-hand gear that they set up in an abandoned Clone Wars-vintage installation. And that was all after they'd had a couple years to get some momentum.
As for the larger discussion of aesthetics and technical and technological level on display. The difference between the PT and OT is not like the difference between Vietnam and Desert Storm. The GFFA isn't quite in technological stasis, but the rate of advancement has very much plateaued. They have had interstellar travel for tens of thousands of years. They've had some form of galactic government for much of that time. There has been slow progress, but it's much more incremental than the great technological leaps we've known between the '60s and '90s. More like the rate of advancement between 2010 and now.
At the same time, while the Republic, and, after the Empire, the companies that still hewed to a Republic-era design ethic, was about making the best equipment they could, the Empire sacrificed quality for volume. Not saying the stuff produced was garbage -- far from it -- but the emphasis was less on precision engineering and more on what could be done to get as many out the door as fast as possible. Flat panels on the basic starfighters, instead of the more time- and resource-intensive (but more effective) angled versions. Interchangeable parts between helmets and ships, rather than dedicated components. In the real world, it's why we got the F-22 instead of the measurably, demonstrably superior F-23. The former used more existing, off-the-shelf parts.
And evolution isn't always improvement. Ford stopped making the Falcon in the US back in the '60s, but Ford Australia kept making it all the way through, with new design generations and upgrades and such. Most famously, the one that was used as Max's V8 interceptor. Soem years back, now, Ford US wanted to bring the marque back, but couldn't because Pep-Boys had bought the rights after Ford had let their claim lapse. So Ford brought the Falcon back to the US instead as the "500". Which was... mediocre, at best. Definitely a far cry from what the Falcon had been, and even still was over in Australia at the time. They also had rise and fall and rise and fall and rise and fall with the Mustang.
Messerschmitt lovingly crafted the 262 to incredible tolerances. Meanwhile, Supermarine cranked out the Spitfire as fast as they could. There's your Naboo N-1 to TIE Fighter comparison. The P-51 is a good analogue for the evolution of the Y-Wing. The early models were underpowered and had marginal range for what they would become -- and that's before postwar models continued to be uprated through the 1960s. They were flying combat missions for a quarter of a century -- which in GFFA terms, is, like, three times that. And the F-15 has always been the go-to comparison for the Z-95/X-Wing, for much the same reasons. Equipment has been removed as unnecessary, components have been upgraded and reduced the amount of visible cockpit clutter. Advanced components were "downgraded" to more robust units that did the same thing.
As for missiles and tracking and such, we only ever see the surface in the films. We scratch a little below that in the shows. The EU and new ancillary material does some technical noodling, but one thing that hasn't been emphasized is something that's an ongoing contest in the real-world, in the GFFA, in the Star Trek universe, etc.: Countermeasures are developed to thwart sensors and tracking; improved sensors are developed to beat the countermeasures; improved countermeasures are developed to defeat the improved sensors; back and forth for as long as there is more than one side to a struggle. At the start of the conflict, planetary defense forces had what they'd needed to deal with pirates and smugglers. The Separatists and their combat-purposed hardware necessitated improvement in defensive systems. So the CIS developed better battle droids and fighters and tanks and missiles to defeat what the Republic came up with. And so on. Gravity-well projectors, cloaking devices, droid-brain-guided missiles, ion cannons...
In Star Wars, Tarkin so utterly dismissed the smattering of starfighters -- of all things -- sent against his 160-km-diameter battle station that he didn't even bother to raise main shields. The Rebel ships wallowed a bit going through the station's magnetic field, but we know what would have happened had actual shields been up. It's what they broke off to avoid at Endor (and one fighter didn't quite make it, per the script and novelization), and what we saw happen over Scarif. The shields over the reactor-exhaust heat-dispersion vents were just part of the running status of the station -- automatically on. But weak enough that at the far end of the venting trenches the fighters could get through the shields to make runs on the exhaust ports themselves. At the same time, strong enough that even shooting a proton torpedo at the port from outside those shields wouldn't work. Neither would lasers, because ray-shielded. The targeting computer was having to calculate a solution on a target it had to make a right-angle turn to get to, over the curvature of the station's surface (over-the-horizon targeting). That Red Leader's almost worked was very not bad -- just not quite good enough. Serious threading-the-needle shot.
It all seems pretty consistent. We've seen in the real world that things stagnate a bit during peacetime, while conflict spurs advancement. In the GFFA, peacetime artisanal craftmanship wasn't sustainable in a galaxy-spanning conflict, and concessions had to be made. At the same time, there was a technological arms race between sides. SO just because something worked during the Clone Wars, doesn't mean it'd still work against Imperial assets -- or First Order. We've seen some things in the real-world that are somewhat analogous. The US was set to retire the B-52 and the A-10... but the new technologies that were supposed to supplant those craft proved unable to perform as well, so those craft were retained. People were flying the same B-52s on missions in the Middle East that their granddad's had flown over Vietnam. The F-4 had no guns because, with "over-the-horizon" missile targeting, there would never be any more dogfights... until there were and we started losing craft and pilots left and right and had to bring back guns and dogfighting in a hurry. The H-1 proved to be such a versatile foundation to work with that we ended up with variants from medivac to primary-assault.
Meanwhile, the Russian air force is so strapped, captured planes have been found to have portable commercial GPS units zip-tied to the panels because the installed units don't work. Something can always be found in a pinch when you have to try to make something viable that isn't.
Solo4114
Master Member
On the issue of the tech in the films, I think there isn't really a good explanation other than what's been offered: George didn't wanna be limited by 1970s tech just to maintain continuity. Period. Anything after that is a post hoc justification.
You can defend the body-styling decisions of things like the Naboo fighters and uniforms and such. You can show Coruscant as this vibrant, shining city-planet and explain it away easily enough. But stuff like the digital displays? Nah, you don't get a pass on that because of "culture and art during the Republic." You just have better filmmaking toys to work with now, and you haven't had a chance to monkey around with the old films to change those things.
I get the decision to do it. I also get the complaint that they didn't keep it consistent.
As with a lot of my complaints about the PT, though, I find that the Clone Wars cartoon helps to bridge the gap. I find it remarkable how well that show papers over the deficiencies of the PT.
You can defend the body-styling decisions of things like the Naboo fighters and uniforms and such. You can show Coruscant as this vibrant, shining city-planet and explain it away easily enough. But stuff like the digital displays? Nah, you don't get a pass on that because of "culture and art during the Republic." You just have better filmmaking toys to work with now, and you haven't had a chance to monkey around with the old films to change those things.
I get the decision to do it. I also get the complaint that they didn't keep it consistent.
As with a lot of my complaints about the PT, though, I find that the Clone Wars cartoon helps to bridge the gap. I find it remarkable how well that show papers over the deficiencies of the PT.
Joek3rr
Master Member
"Continuity is for wimps." - George Lucas (my new favorite quote of his if you couldn't tell
)Honestly though the Prequels are surprisingly consistent. George could have said that he wanted all holographic displays or touch screen stuff. But they stuck with physical tactile controls and small displays. They didn't need to. And they keep the graphic language the same. Yes it's spruced up, and got some more stuff going on. But the language is consistent. And as I pointed out the Eta-2 targeting computer is exactly the same as the TIE.
Wolfsburg
Master Member
Agreed. I think that is the bottom line here. I get some of the arguments being presented here but I generally just don't agree. Even ignoring some of the design language and more modern displays (and yes I realize they do recycle some of the OT targeting displays but it still feels like the exception than the rule), all the crazy walkers (which frankly seem far superior to an AT-AT, etc etc) and huge assortment of combat droids alone in the PT, just don't jive with the tech we see in the OT to my eye. Even the interior of Slave I in AOTC doesn't match up and looks more modern than what we glimpsed in TESB. To me Andor gets the 70s/80s vibe mostly right, of recent offerings anyways. I know one can argue the Empire just decided to cheap out but eh, I still don't like the direction George went with, even if that was what he was thinking.
Master Boda
Sr Member
It might not be that the Empire was cheap. In a time of war the technology booms almost faster then what it can be kept up with.Towards the end of ROTS there was “peace”the DeathStar was under construction along with a Navy.The Empires main tactic was fear and numerical superiority at that point.The greatest weapon that helped the Rebels was the Emperor’s/Empire’s EGO.Why update your technology if you have already won?
I see both sides of the coin,at least we have some cool ship designs.
I see both sides of the coin,at least we have some cool ship designs.
You could rationalize that the rebels might prefer backdated OT targeting computers even if the PT tech is available.
I'm a classic car guy. The majority of the hobby has resisted fuel injection conversions for the last 20 years. (Like even setting aside the guys who reject it due to originality/appearance.) The retrofit kits are pretty affordable & user-friendly these days but it's not enough to win over a lot of people because of other concerns. Durability, long-term parts availability, the need to change other systems on the car along with it, etc.
The USSR was still putting vacuum-tube electronics on some fighter jets in the 1970s. That stuff is more durable against a nuclear blast. Etc.
I'm a classic car guy. The majority of the hobby has resisted fuel injection conversions for the last 20 years. (Like even setting aside the guys who reject it due to originality/appearance.) The retrofit kits are pretty affordable & user-friendly these days but it's not enough to win over a lot of people because of other concerns. Durability, long-term parts availability, the need to change other systems on the car along with it, etc.
The USSR was still putting vacuum-tube electronics on some fighter jets in the 1970s. That stuff is more durable against a nuclear blast. Etc.
Riceball
Master Member
Here's a question on something a bit different.
Why is it that no Stormtrooper seems to ever speak with a British/Coruscant accent while most officers, Stormtrooper, Army, & Navy do? Are all Stormtroopers taught to speak without an accent or do they not recruit Stormtroopers (who are to wear the armor) from Coruscant?
Why is it that no Stormtrooper seems to ever speak with a British/Coruscant accent while most officers, Stormtrooper, Army, & Navy do? Are all Stormtroopers taught to speak without an accent or do they not recruit Stormtroopers (who are to wear the armor) from Coruscant?
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