Lets talk all things Star Wars

[sztriki]

Exactly. But as the director and general storyteller for the whole thing? Not so much.

I've been far more impressed with Dave Filioni and Jon Favreau and their grasp of "Star Wars." For that matter, with Favreau's grasp of Iron Man.

These guys not only "get" the IP they're tasked with shepherding, they are damn good storytellers. Moreover, they're straight-ahead storytellers. They don't rely on a lot of gimmickry. They include references and throwbacks and such, but it's not nearly as lampshaded as what Lucas did. And beyond that...it's just stories. It's not bulls**t "mysteries" or a bunch of plot points designed to back-fill marketing decisions.

Agreed. Neither pandering fan-service that has no substance behind the usual "look it's Death Star, Darth Vader, oh Stormtroopers as well, wow, Gold Leader!"...I genuinely sat down last week to watch the Mandalorian thinking "this is probably where I'm gonna give up on this" and they pulled it off nicely.

 

[Solo4114]

I just watched the 1st episode of Season 2 last night, and it included some great references and "Easter eggs." Tem Morrison's appearance, and even the look of the armor itself, the R5-D4 appearance, etc. But these were done in a way that, with the exception of Fett, blended in pretty well with the story. It didn't feel shoehorned in, it wasn't just some random thing, and it wasn't lampshaded verbally, just visually. And even then, in a manner that was more just for long-time fans. If you were just watching with no prior knowledge, you'd be like "Ok, so a droid rolled up. And there's some hooded guy at the end. Thatw as kinda weird. But whatevs." It wasn't "OH, BABY GREEDO, YOU'LL COME TO A BAD END."

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I think the Jedi have this narrow view that says that any kid they don't get their hands on and train, is most likely going to fall to the dark side.

I think that's exactly it. They know they're right so they must train them to protect people. That's part of why they fell because they were arrogant and some of their dogma probably hurt them, like not allowing them to marry or have kids. Yeah some, like Anakin, became a problem, but what might have happened if they allowed Anakin to marry Padme?

 

[cboath]

I think that's exactly it. They know they're right so they must train them to protect people. That's part of why they fell because they were arrogant and some of their dogma probably hurt them, like not allowing them to marry or have kids. Yeah some, like Anakin, became a problem, but what might have happened if they allowed Anakin to marry Padme?

Likely nothing changes. Anakin didn't fall because he wasn't allowed to openly date/marry. He fell because because he was an idiot Seriously though, he fell because of his fear of losing her, not because he wasn't allowed to marry her.

I don't think it works very well to say he didn't like the rules or anything or felt he was way above everyone else because they got a hold of him pretty young. At the age he was in TPM, they get their hooks on someone that young, it's very easy to engrain them to your way of thinking and doing things. Now, if he was 18 or so at the time they found him that works a lot better and would have provided a much better parallel to Luke. At 18 you can be brash and arrogant and then the group that takes you in may not be able to bring you to their way of thinking. The rules rub you the wrong way and being better than everyone else does provide an arrogance that leads toward the dark side.

 

[harrisonp]

I’ll argue til the end that if Anakin has been an older T2 John Connor type it would have alleviated a lot of the issues with his character. He’s just no believable to me as this little 9 year old kid. Why they didn’t make him the same age as Portman makes no sense.

 

[Psab keel]

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

To my understanding a generation is generally considered to be 10 years. So by that math in the OT the Republic was over 10,000 years old and in the PT it was 1000 years. Big difference there.

A generation is the average age at which people are having children, and, by corollary, the people born and growing up together prior to having children of their own. When there are significant population events like the post-WWII Baby Boom, those serve as convenient reference points. I think it is currently 23 years or so. Or, more generally "20-30 years".

 

[Psab keel]

So the Old Republic is 23,000 years old by that metric.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

At least, depending on how late Humans in the GFFA are having kids.

 

[HeartBlade]

If we approach the Jedi, especially the PT Jedi, as wrong for the right reasons or a flawed organization that was stuck in limbo, I think the discussion becomes more interesting.

regarding consent and should all force-sensitives be trained to become Jedi, I think every PT Jedi would say yes and screw consent (although not that bluntly). The Jedi likely see the situation as the following:
1) the Jedi order is necessary to establish peace and order through the galaxy.
2) however, the number of force sensitive individuals are very rare and those that are capable enough to be a Jedi are even rarer.
3) thus, to ensure that the Jedi order doesn’t die out, we need to recruit and train as many force sensitives as we can get our hands on.

The Jedi also probably see force sensitivity as a great power and with great power comes great responsibility. If a person is force sensitive, they have a gift and so use that gift to better the galaxy, hence they should join the Jedi and serve the republic.

Although the learners/knights/etc arnt held against their will, they are essentially brainwashed to like being a jedi. They are probably taught from a young age that serving the republic and peace is good and that is what they should want. The Jedi also have really good PR so when they come to get a child, the parents will likely say ok because their kid gets to become a Jedi.

this becomes questionable canon since it relies on the Jedi apprentice books but the Jedi still have the right to consent to be a knight and the right to leave. Xanatos, Qui Gon’s first apprentice, left the order to join his dad’s corporation (and also becomes a dark Jedi in the process). Obi Wan also leaves the order because he wants to bring peace and stability to a planet called Melida/Daan and can’t as a Jedi since they are forced to leave.

However, it is clear that people are discouraged from leaving the order. It’s really hard to become a padawan, let alone a knight so the sunk cost fallacy is there as well as being told from day 1 that you want to be a Jedi knight. People also seem to be shunned if they leave the order with Obi Wan actually facing some shunning for temporarily leaving. So many force sensitives, once recruited to the order, probably only see knighthood as the only way of life and any others as failures on their part.

 

[HeartBlade]

Off topic a bit but the PT Jedi order can be pretty problematic, essentially due to their close ties with the republic at the time.

the close ties between the republic and Jedi order definitely gave the Jedi a lot of power (they could essentially travel all over the galaxy and had special privileges as Jedi) but came at the cost of having to be the republic’s police force despite insufficient numbers. It also means the Jedi essentially need to defend the republic even if it’s not “right”.

Ranging from not intervening in a civil war to try to establish peace because the planet isn’t a “republic controlled” planet to essentially forced to become military commanders during the clone wars, the Jedi ties to the Republic and the need to defend them does seem to force the Jedi to do things beyond their job description. Nevermind the very groupthink nature of the Jedi council where every big decision seems to be determined by Yoda and Windu and conflicting opinions are unwelcome (hence why Qui Gon couldn’t join the council). Yeah the Sith and Palpatine definitely arnt the good guys but it doesn’t mean the Jedi arnt flawless either.

 

[harrisonp]

All of that is why if I had to dig the tiniest kernel out of TLJ for even the biggest detractors it would be Luke breaking down the Jedi Order and highlighting its flaws. Say what you will about his state in that movie, but that speech he gives Rey perfectly outlines the issues that caused the PT Jedi to fall.

 

[Joek3rr]

Off topic a bit but the PT Jedi order can be pretty problematic, essentially due to their close ties with the republic at the time.

the close ties between the republic and Jedi order definitely gave the Jedi a lot of power (they could essentially travel all over the galaxy and had special privileges as Jedi) but came at the cost of having to be the republic’s police force despite insufficient numbers. It also means the Jedi essentially need to defend the republic even if it’s not “right”.

Ranging from not intervening in a civil war to try to establish peace because the planet isn’t a “republic controlled” planet to essentially forced to become military commanders during the clone wars, the Jedi ties to the Republic and the need to defend them does seem to force the Jedi to do things beyond their job description. Nevermind the very groupthink nature of the Jedi council where every big decision seems to be determined by Yoda and Windu and conflicting opinions are unwelcome (hence why Qui Gon couldn’t join the council). Yeah the Sith and Palpatine definitely arnt the good guys but it doesn’t mean the Jedi arnt flawless either.

My wife and I were watching TPM last night. And I pointed out that in the title crawl that the Jedi have secretly dispatched by the Chancellor. It just struck me that the Jedi should have really objected to being sent on secret missions by the Chancellor himself.

 

[cboath]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[sztriki]

I just watched the 1st episode of Season 2 last night, and it included some great references and "Easter eggs." Tem Morrison's appearance, and even the look of the armor itself, the R5-D4 appearance, etc. But these were done in a way that, with the exception of Fett, blended in pretty well with the story. It didn't feel shoehorned in, it wasn't just some random thing, and it wasn't lampshaded verbally, just visually. And even then, in a manner that was more just for long-time fans. If you were just watching with no prior knowledge, you'd be like "Ok, so a droid rolled up. And there's some hooded guy at the end. Thatw as kinda weird. But whatevs." It wasn't "OH, BABY GREEDO, YOU'LL COME TO A BAD END."

I agree mostly except for the R5D5...10 years and nobody would wipe down the blob of oil from around the very panel that blew off...would have been better if it was just different coloured.
I really loved how badly Fett's armour fitted the marshal guy.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

My wife and I were watching TPM last night. And I pointed out that in the title crawl that the Jedi have secretly dispatched by the Chancellor. It just struck me that the Jedi should have really objected to being sent on secret missions by the Chancellor himself.

Well the Chancellor is the head of the Senate, who I believe the Jedi answer to. I think the Jedi are part of the Judicial Department of the Republic, though I don't know if that's canon or not. The Jedi's problem was that they didn't recognize the increase in trouble spots for what they were. Darth Sidious was creating all these to knock off Jedi and then he finished them off with the Clone Wars. So the part they probably should have objected to was becoming Generals and Commanders in the war because the Senate was actually sending them on what appeared to be legit Jedi missions.

 

[HeartBlade]

Yeah I really feel Rian Johnson just doesn’t understand the characters in Star Wars. From a recent interview on if he considered including Anakin’s force ghost instead of Yoda in TLJ.

Redirect Notice

When asked if he ever considered including Force Ghost Anakin, Johnson explains, “Briefly for the tree burning scene, but Luke’s relationship was with Vader not really Anakin, which seemed like it would complicate things more than that moment allowed.”

Maybe it’s because of the phrasing but this just feels wrong. Not only is the current fan outrage justified (Luke is trying to appeal to Anakin which is the goodness in Vader in RotJ), this view of Vader and Anakin as split personalities just seems off.

Vader and Anakin are the same person. It’s not like Vader is a split personality within Anakin that emerged or that Vader is a mask hiding Anakin like Bruce Wayne is to Batman. Vader and Anakin are the same person. Thus, in the end of RotJ when Shaw/Christiansen shows up as a force ghost, Luke recognizes and smiles at him.

I’m not disagreeing with the choice of using Anakin (having Anakin in TLJ wouldn’t have changed the film for me and Yoda was the right choice here imo) but how RJ sees Vader makes me question how he sees and understands the OT and PT characters.

 

[Psab keel]

He doesn't understand them. Neither does JJ. That's a huge part of why their films suck so bad. Whether it was Anakin or Yoda in that scene it still would have had the same impact. He could have easily had a banana make an appeal to Luke at that point because while watching it I'd already checked out of the story and was contemplating walking out of the theater. Sadly I stayed to the end in the hope something good might come of it, but when it didn't I left the theater pissed off. No fan edit could save that movie for me because there was nothing in it that I liked. That entire trilogy needs to be buried in the sand with the rest of the Skywalker legacy and forgotten.

 

[Joek3rr]

Yeah I really feel Rian Johnson just doesn’t understand the characters in Star Wars. From a recent interview on if he considered including Anakin’s force ghost instead of Yoda in TLJ.

Redirect Notice

When asked if he ever considered including Force Ghost Anakin, Johnson explains, “Briefly for the tree burning scene, but Luke’s relationship was with Vader not really Anakin, which seemed like it would complicate things more than that moment allowed.”

Maybe it’s because of the phrasing but this just feels wrong. Not only is the current fan outrage justified (Luke is trying to appeal to Anakin which is the goodness in Vader in RotJ), this view of Vader and Anakin as split personalities just seems off.

Vader and Anakin are the same person. It’s not like Vader is a split personality within Anakin that emerged or that Vader is a mask hiding Anakin like Bruce Wayne is to Batman. Vader and Anakin are the same person. Thus, in the end of RotJ when Shaw/Christiansen shows up as a force ghost, Luke recognizes and smiles at him.

I’m not disagreeing with the choice of using Anakin (having Anakin in TLJ wouldn’t have changed the film for me and Yoda was the right choice here imo) but how RJ sees Vader makes me question how he sees and understands the OT and PT characters.

Except that exactly how the films describe the Vader/Anakin relationship. They are like two different people. Rian is correct in his assessment.

"You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view."

 

[Psab keel]

Rian is correct in his assessment.