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HeartBlade

Sr Member
Leia is not male and Lando is not white. Lucas did it first and he did it better.

Yup. Lucas also already had the first black Jedi with Mace Windu, the rebellion was actually diverse with aliens and people from various races, and the Jedi order itself is also quite multi-cultural. Hell, Obi Wan would have been Japanese had Lucas gotten his way.

It’s just that Lucas was focused on telling a good story and not about “diversity.” It really bugs me when “fans” criticize Star Wars as being “too white” because it’s just false. I do think calling out Disney is justified since despite their marketing focusing on diversity, they did it worse.
 

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cboath

Master Member
Yeah, Disney (and i'm guessing that part was pure Disney) pushed the diversity angle big time. I remember it was initially a point of contention when they started off with it, too. I'm not saying they don't deserve flack for not following through on that.

You can't say, though, they didn't know how to handle people of color as the reason when the role wasn't not written as a person of color. The bit about the FO being all white/alt right....we see only a handful of non-trooper characters of the FO. The only stormtrooper we ever see unmasker, I believe in the entire series 1-9, is Finn. When we see fin helmetless and he's confronted, his race/color is never referenced. When he meets Rey, then Han and Chewie, then the resistance, etc, it is never mentioned. So, the role, wasn't written as a character of color. The writers didn't treat that part any different than any other character in that regard either.

If you want to say the director or management of the studio is racist, that's another issue altogether. But, he didn't say that. He said they didn't know how to write for people of color and that's why their plotlines were dropped. I don't buy that as the reasoning because they parts weren't written as people of color.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
Yeah, Disney (and i'm guessing that part was pure Disney) pushed the diversity angle big time. I remember it was initially a point of contention when they started off with it, too. I'm not saying they don't deserve flack for not following through on that.

You can't say, though, they didn't know how to handle people of color as the reason when the role wasn't not written as a person of color. The bit about the FO being all white/alt right....we see only a handful of non-trooper characters of the FO. The only stormtrooper we ever see unmasker, I believe in the entire series 1-9, is Finn. When we see fin helmetless and he's confronted, his race/color is never referenced. When he meets Rey, then Han and Chewie, then the resistance, etc, it is never mentioned. So, the role, wasn't written as a character of color. The writers didn't treat that part any different than any other character in that regard either.

If you want to say the director or management of the studio is racist, that's another issue altogether. But, he didn't say that. He said they didn't know how to write for people of color and that's why their plotlines were dropped. I don't buy that as the reasoning because they parts weren't written as people of color.

This is also true. The role description for casting Rey and Finn were ambiguous and open to all ethnicities.


And given the fact that other white actors also had poorly developed roles that they didn’t seem to know what to do with (Poe, Phasma, Holdo), there isn’t a need to attribute malice to what can be summarized as incompetence.

I do think if you push the diversity angle, you better make damn sure your diverse cast get good roles and development. If you advertise your cafe makes amazing cakes but put out mediocre cakes, customers will complain and your defense but the rest of our food sucks too isn’t sufficient.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
To touch briefly on the comments themselves I will say I think John's original statements (which are his true feelings on the matter despite the clearly scripted by a publicist retractions he just made) are spot on though misconstrued by the public.

He's not implying that Lucasfilm is racist, but merely pointing out the hypocrisy of their marketing in pushing diversity as being a primary strength of the story when the people of color are relegated to supporting roles that have no real impact, if at all, on the story. I think his perspective has merit given the way Lucasfilm, like so many other studios, have a tendency to pat themselves on the back as though they are breaking down barriers when in fact they aren't. The issue John raised is with the poor marketing tactics used to draw audiences into the theater because then the focus gets pulled from the story and that's never good.

It all comes down to the script. It always does and it is well known that Star Wars has been mostly cast blind to color, or gender right from the beginning so I have to scoff at the notion that these stories aren't inclusive. It's themes transcend those differences because anyone from anywhere can relate. That's what makes these movies timeless. Red Letter Media touched on this subject in their Prequel reviews with regards to casting and marketing.

It was not my intention to start some sort of debate on race in entertainment. Far from it. My interest, as I said before has more to do with the fact that actors are now being pressured to tow the company line or face possible consequences to their careers. I'm sure this has always been the case but it's only been magnified by our current culture and I think it only further erodes any shred of artistic integrity movies have left.
 
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Sluis Van Shipyards

Master Member
Given that basis, you could say John is calling them out for their BS, that for all their fluff they really only gave the good parts to “white people” aka Ben and Rey. John was definitely a dual protagonist, at least in TFA given that the movie essentially kicks off with his defection and Finn is the “main character” alongside Rey. Finn does get shoved into the background as the “side character” to Rose and essentially stays there until the end of the series.

There were good parts? :lol: ;)

Diversity is great, but making that the complete objective of your movie to prove how woke you are, isn't a good way to make a movie. You write a great story and then populate it.
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
A key element for me would also be the discrediting of Leia in front of the New Republic senate in the midst of calls for decentralizing their forces. Leia would be in favor of maintaining their strong govt while others claim it is overreach. Kylo Ren and his knights or whoever would burst in and blow the lid off her lineage, sowing seeds of doubt once people know she’s the daughter of Vader. I do think Bloodline(s?) touched on some of that but I haven’t read it. This would make the whole splintered off Resistance thing make sense.
Bloodline is the inverse of that. Leia's paternity is revealed by a political rival while Ben is off with Luke, out of contact. They hadn't told him and now she's dreading how he's going to react when they get back in range of the news broadcasts and he finds out that way.

kind of dived into a small rabbit hole watching the 1990 release of witches vs the one released in 2020. I do feel that movies nowadays seem to pull their punches when it comes to horror and gore. Kids movies and Disney movies back in the 80s and 90s had some horrifying or traumatizing scenes (Bambi’s mom getting shot, Fantasia, kids turning into donkey slaves). This followed the Grimm brothers’ principle of scaring children so they understand the moral of the story.
Heck, go back and watch The Black Hole. Cheesy in some respects, great production values, though. Another Disney marketing fail. It's not science-fiction, it's gothic horror... in space. It's The Island of Doctor Moreau mixed with Faust. There's a lot of eerie in the first act, and a lot of ghastly in the third. The reveal of what Reinhardt had done with the Cygnus' crew, and the death of Dr. Durant were pretty gruesome for a Disney movie.

I also remember them famously saying they'd never release The Black Cauldron on home-video, due to the violence and death inherent in the story. But then, in the late '90s, they did.
 

jkno

Master Member
kisssss.jpg
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Time is very inconsistent in this galaxy. (But in reality it's the writing that's inconsistent).

OT : For over a thousand generations the Jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, before the dark times, before the Empire.

PT: I will not let this Republic which has stood for a thousand years be split in two.

To my understanding a generation is generally considered to be 10 years. So by that math in the OT the Republic was over 10,000 years old and in the PT it was 1000 years. Big difference there.

I know RLM covered this but it came to mind after the video I posted in the Gondolorian thread.
 

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HeartBlade

Sr Member
so the apparent reveal about the child is that he was formerly trained in the Jedi temple but survived order 66 and now looking for someone to train him?

Also no idea of his age but given that his race matures slower than others, I wonder if he got more training on force powers and is thus more proficient at the force at the expense of physical training like lightsaber combat? Running the Jedi curriculum must be quite difficult since there are a wide variety of alien races with different life spans, maturity, etc.

Also, this kid is of a mysterious unknown race we don’t know of and the only two characters of this species is Yoda and Yaddle, both members of the Jedi council...
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
One question I have is that is it even necessary to train him? I mean he's just living his life. but the second a character shows even an inkling of Force proficiency and suddenly they have to become formally trained as a Jedi? Why is that always a given? It would be really interesting to have Grogu choose not to carry on with his training and live however he wants. At least it would be something different for them to explore.
 

Ron

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I never liked the concept of Jedi being recruited at childhood. I realize the earlier you develop the talents of someone, the greater they will excel at those talents but we're not talking about learning to play the piano. We're talking about dedicating your life to living as a warrior monk. That's a decision too heavy for a child to make.

When Yoda said Luke was too old to begin the training, it sounded like he was just making up some excuse to give to feel out how committed Luke was and not that he was merely expounding on policy for recruitment into the Jedi order. But, like other things from the OT it's a simple line or moment that becomes unnecessarily aggrandized and given higher levels of importance in subsequent movies.
 

ThreadSketch

Active Member
One question I have is that is it even necessary to train him? I mean he's just living his life. but the second a character shows even an inkling of Force proficiency and suddenly they have to become formally trained as a Jedi? Why is that always a given? It would be really interesting to have Grogu choose not to carry on with his training and live however he wants. At least it would be something different for them to explore.

Yeah, ironically Luke is a perfect example of what happens when you don't train a Force user: pretty much nothing. Luke was a normal kid whose latent Force sensitivity is what gave him his edge in bullseyeing womp rats and not ending up a smear on the walls of Beggar's Canyon - the same way his father Anakin was the only human to successfully podrace. But otherwise, he could have gone his whole life never knowing a lick about the Force and never training as a Jedi, and he'd never be a threat to either himself or the galaxy at large.

Thinking about the history of the Jedi Order, I don't remember if this figure was mentioned anywhere in the PT films or if it just cropped up from some EU extra material, but they supposedly had about 10,000 Knights for an entire galaxy. That's an absurdly small number compared to the galactic population. I have a feeling that the Old Republic standardizing blood tests for all newborn citizens wasn't only because, per their dogma, prospective Jedi had to begin training as very young children, but also because Force sensitivity was also that damn rare (especially since the "no attachments" rule, while technically not requiring celibacy, resulted in a lack of families of Force sensitives, so they had to wait for the trait to randomly pop up). They'd be pretty desperate to keep their ranks up, so surely any Force sensitive child they'd come across they'd really want to take and train.

No, the old Jedi Order weren't "babynappers," legally the families had to give consent - but over those thousand generations I'm sure the Jedi honed their sales tactics well to minimize being turned down, if you get my drift.

At this point, though, if I was in the GFFA, my two credits would be: indeed, who says every single Force sensitive HAS to train, when it's been demonstrated not to be a risk if training never happens at all (or in this case, somehow Grogu comprehends a certain level of Jedi training yet still expresses himself like a human toddler who has difficulty grasping more complex concepts like morals, and apparently if he lets his skills lie fallow long enough he'll forget them and "lose" his abilities)? And, while this may be a more existential question, who says the Jedi have to be so concerned with the idea of being Team Republic: Galactic Police? I know Order 66 was a devastating loss, essentially a genocide, and they should rightfully seek to preserve and restore their culture, and in the previous centuries they obviously partnered with the largest government in the galaxy in order to have the resources to serve the most people and try to do the most good, and have some checks and balances established against them. Now that that's all shot to hell...would going back to being more of an order of philosophers and untethered nomad warrior monks, just following the flow of the Force, be so bad? Would it be an additional tragedy for the Jedi Order to take several more centuries to reach their previous numbers, or could they take it in stride?

(And most of all - like Ron said, they really might want to reconsider the notion of never allowing these children in the past to have made their own decision to follow this lifestyle. That's a very sobering thought: that every old order Jedi was a person whose freedom was taken away in that respect when they were too young to understand what was going on. Even if they fully embraced it as an adult, and the order didn't forbid anyone from leaving as an adult either...they never asked to go down this path to begin with, and now they've lost X number of years they'll never get back, and trying to reintegrate into normal society when you're a psychic wizard is a daunting prospect.)

That's the thing that frustrated me about old Legends EU as well - that Luke turned Yoda's "pass on what you have learned" into "I need to train as many people as humanly possible because we're an endangered species, risks be damned." That's not what he was instructed. He could have trained a single person - his sister Leia, or Mara Jade, or whoever - in his entire lifetime and still fulfilled that command. And then that new Jedi could turn around and train one more person, and so on...slow growth done right is not inferior to chaotic and ineffective exponential growth. Quality over quantity.

That's a lot to say: yeah, who says every little green gremlin in the GFFA who looks like Yoda automatically needs to become a Jedi, lol. Kind of reminds me of this meme:

https://threadsketchier.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F169945593280
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
One question I have is that is it even necessary to train him? I mean he's just living his life. but the second a character shows even an inkling of Force proficiency and suddenly they have to become formally trained as a Jedi? Why is that always a given? It would be really interesting to have Grogu choose not to carry on with his training and live however he wants. At least it would be something different for them to explore.
I think the Jedi have this narrow view that says that any kid they don't get their hands on and train, is most likely going to fall to the dark side.
 

Solo4114

Master Member
So, like, on all the controversy re: the ST? I think I've figured it out, guys. I think I know what went wrong:


JJ Abrams is not a very good storyteller, but he's very good at building rollercoasters and hype machines.


And that's about it. He knows how to manipulate audiences' emotions in the moment, but not how to tell a coherent, compelling story that stands on its own without metanarrative shenanigans.

giphy.gif
 

ALLEY

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Well, the Jedi lifestyle, and training methodology, has not been without its critics, and has certainly suffered from scandal, in recent years...

 

sztriki

Sr Member
So, like, on all the controversy re: the ST? I think I've figured it out, guys. I think I know what went wrong:


JJ Abrams is not a very good storyteller, but he's very good at building rollercoasters and hype machines.


And that's about it. He knows how to manipulate audiences' emotions in the moment, but not how to tell a coherent, compelling story that stands on its own without metanarrative shenanigans.

View attachment 1374461
Yep. Which is why he would have been good as a director if someone else with a coherent story for the whole trilogy has written the scripts. Alas...
 

Solo4114

Master Member
Yep. Which is why he would have been good as a director if someone else with a coherent story for the whole trilogy has written the scripts. Alas...

Exactly. But as the director and general storyteller for the whole thing? Not so much.

I've been far more impressed with Dave Filioni and Jon Favreau and their grasp of "Star Wars." For that matter, with Favreau's grasp of Iron Man.

These guys not only "get" the IP they're tasked with shepherding, they are damn good storytellers. Moreover, they're straight-ahead storytellers. They don't rely on a lot of gimmickry. They include references and throwbacks and such, but it's not nearly as lampshaded as what Lucas did. And beyond that...it's just stories. It's not bulls**t "mysteries" or a bunch of plot points designed to back-fill marketing decisions.
 

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