Lets talk all things Star Wars

[HeartBlade]

Yeah the tweet is pretty laughable. Those all look like decently grown adults. Order 66 massacred over thousands of Jedi all around the world in various ways from getting shot in the back to being blown up in space. We also get the nice shot (and a deleted scene of Obi Wan and Yoda seeing the act) of Anakin activating his lightsaber and killing kids. Nevermind the scene of a young Jedi running away from clone troopers only to get shot and killed while a helpless Bail Organa looks on.

The scene would also give Kylo Ren some much needed credit as an intimidating villain. Kylo Ren was intimidating in the opening of TFA with the blaster laser freeze in mid air. But other than that, he really doesn’t come off as powerful or a real threat.

kind of dived into a small rabbit hole watching the 1990 release of witches vs the one released in 2020. I do feel that movies nowadays seem to pull their punches when it comes to horror and gore. Kids movies and Disney movies back in the 80s and 90s had some horrifying or traumatizing scenes (Bambi’s mom getting shot, Fantasia, kids turning into donkey slaves). This followed the Grimm brothers’ principle of scaring children so they understand the moral of the story.

 

[Joek3rr]

Key establishing plot points should never be relegated to supplementary material. Period. Your average moviegoer is not going to pick up every tie-in novel, visual dictionary, comic book, etc.; only a certain subset (however large it may be) of the fandom is going to bother with that. If a film hasn't incorporated and displayed vitally important information that impacts the universe/worldbuilding, it's failed.

This would be akin to shoving the Vader paternity revelation offscreen into a book or comic and then expecting us to care about the stakes when the films carry on around it.

Totally agree.

But the real question is. Does the Sequels do that? Do they establish key plot points in supplementary material?

 

[cboath]

But there is a lot of imagination. Go through art books, dig up all behind the scenes tweets. It's not like they sat down and wrote one draft and proceeded to film. According to Pablo Hildago episode 7 was going to show Ben's fall and the destruction of Luke's Jedi. With Darth Talon seducing Ben to the dark side. There's a lot of different ideas they explored. But there was big change that had a domino effect on the rest of trilogy. And that was Michael Arndt having Luke not appear until the end of 7. That single change means a big shift in the timeline. All that stuff about Ben and Luke's Jedi Academy become things that happened in the past. And play right into JJ's mystery box style.

You don't get to claim credit for creativity when you toss all the good stuff you came up with aside.

 

[ThreadSketch]

Totally agree.

But the real question is. Does the Sequels do that? Do they establish key plot points in supplementary material?

• What is the state/jurisdiction of the New Republic?
• Why is Leia seemingly estranged from them/not able to communicate directly with them?
• Why is the Resistance? (No, really, why. Why is the new galactic government letting Space Nazis 2.0 amass power, kidnap masses of children, and establish a formidable fleet when their own forces have been reduced to almost nothing, and why does the New Republic apparently support this militia in the title crawl but not actually officially/openly do anything for them, or instead pass laws to start creating their own New Republic army/navy Cold War-style?)
  • My gosh, we couldn't even keep one short deleted scene of Leia at least referencing the fact that she's not on good terms with the NR Senate and has to send somebody else to plead her case so that at least we can give an ounce of crap when that same character gapes at the Magic Death Laser coming to blow up Not-Coruscant
• Who the heck is Lor San Tekka and why is he important? Why does he have a map piece? He's got more dialogue and on-screen gravitas than the guy Vader choked on the Tantive IV...
• For that matter, who the hell is Snoke
• And who the hell are the Knights of Ren

I could go on but I don't have all day - the ST is not the opening of the saga with us jumping in media res into the action with Star Wars back in 1977 when nothing else of this universe existed, and more importantly, it's resetting the status quo in a way that's highly illogical and distressing considering where we left off in Return of the Jedi. Because it's so unexpected to find ourselves having to watch another redundant Rebels vs. Empire story 30 years later, instead of a more sensible progression into a different conflict (like the PT did in showing political intrigue and a slide into a manipulated war), the start of the ST damn well better SHOW us why things are the way they are instead of going, "Leia's an underdog again with another ragtag band of freedom fighters and her and Han's kid is Bad™ and there's some shriveled Q-Tip leading a new Empire and here's a Mystery Box Girl™ wearing Luke Skywalker's trappings BECAUSE REASONS™ that we're not going to tell you while you're sitting here with your butt planted in a theater and we're not going to answer in the other two movies either."

 

[cboath]

I'd add to the above that you can't equate the start of the ST to the start of the OT. There was NOTHING before the OT - whether it was episode 4 or not - there was nothing. It also didn't add the main cast of the didn't-exist-yet-prequels to sell people on it and make extra money.

The OT set up these are the bad guys and these are the good guys. That's it. No more. No less. That's all they needed to set up. You don't set up a lot more of Obi Wan because no one knew who he was prior. It did not matter. Period. End of story. Same with Vader. I'd also point out that at the end of E3 (you know, 20 years later) that Vader was in the suit and a bad guy and Obi was already on Tatooine to watch over Luke. The intertwining period WAS largely covered in the crawl. Vader/Empire killed off the jedi, a rebel alliance had formed to take them on. You were up to speed.

When the OT opened - everyone and their dog had notions of what happened TO THEIR HEROES the last 30 years. There was an entire empire of novels, comics, and games dedicated to it. The powers that be chose to screw them (and the fans) over - just because and provide no real explanation for it and just thought everyone would accept it. This is not to agree or disagree with that choice. It IS to say if you make that choice, you have to (in the infamous words of math teachers everywhere) 'show your work'!. They didn't. It left lots of hanging questions that never were really answered (or never satisfactorily answered. The answer that were given where in books written that they damned well knew 90% of the movie going audience would never read. That's not going to work.

One of their larger plot points was that Luke's saber was important. As the video above illustrates, they never explained that either. How did she get it? why was it important? why did kylo give a rat's ass about it? It's importance was largely made up on the spot. I mean, if it was important, you'd think it might have crossed george's mind to mention it in the prior 35 years. Especially in the those 3 movies he made that started it all. Luke never seemed broken up he lost it....but it's of epic importance 35 years later?

 

[HeartBlade]

Totally agree.

But the real question is. Does the Sequels do that? Do they establish key plot points in supplementary material?

The fact that there are so many mysteries left unanswered as does raise issues on the integrity of the ST. To add on to what was said:

Why did Finn “wake up” from his programming? Why have others not?

Who is the old man in the beginning?

So how exactly did Rey “learn” to use force mind control on the stormtrooper?

What is the deal with Leia and the resistance vs the new republic?

Why was the first order able to amass as much power as they had? Why is the new Republic not taking unified action against them? Hell, what is the new republic and how are they functioning?

What is the deal with Phasma? Who/what is she? What’s her relationship with Finn? It is sort of implied it is more than just commander and peon.

Hell, what was Finn’s role/relationships in the First Order? Was he just a cog? A close ally? A butt monkey?

The ST really leads with the opening crawl that Luke vanished and the First Order has been created. However, TFA shows that the First Order already has the resources to create Starkiller, a weapon that makes the Death Star look like a joke. How did a unknown young group make this happen?

The Empire in OT, you can infer that since they are head honcho they have a ton of money and so could spend the time and money on its development and as dictators, screw the opposition. The First Order is for all intents and purposes a “rebel group” to the New Republic. Small, young, and underfunded. Yet they had both the financing and capability to make this weapon. WTF was the new republic doing? If the intention of the ST was to make the audience hate the new Republic as well as not care about its destruction, it worked because if you allow the enemy to build a tank aimed at your capital and fire with no resistance, maybe you don’t deserve to be leading the galaxy.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

For me, reading all of that stuff it just comes down to "I DON'T CARE!" There's nothing that made me like anything about any of the characters in the Sequels. Nothing. I felt more for that Ugnaught guy in the Mandalorian, who was in what, like two or three episodes, than anyone in the Sequels.

 

[harrisonp]

There was more development for Finn and Rey in the LEGO Holiday Special than in the entire sequel trilogy. I have spoken


edit to not double post: I feel like one of the things that jumps out to me about the ST and maybe Disney Star Wars in general is that it subjects the viewer to building a lot of backstory on a character to character basis but not on the broader points of the galaxy. Star Wars has always given us unexplained lines here and there that spice up the world but that we don’t need to see. We believe Lando did something at the Battle of Tanab without needing to see it, in the same way we believe Han is at least a decent pilot when we meet him in ANH.

With the sequel trilogy we have to watch up to the exact moment Finn decides to defect, but then it’s never really useful. He could have already been with the Resistance at the start of the movie, recruited by Poe etc. We have to watch Han in SOLO learn every single bit of his character traits that were shown in the OT. Rogue One does an okay job with implied backstories but the characters don’t endear themselves to a lot of viewers.

I feel like the offscreen events are just as important as onscreen when it comes to character progression. The friendship that is implied onscreen between Han and Luke in ESB is clearly one that has grown between the two movies. The ST has no time to breathe and let that offscreen growth happen. The closest example I can cite is Poe and Finn at the start of TROS but they muck that up by trying to cram Rey into the dynamic too when she only said 2 words to Poe prior.

sorry this is kind of a rambling rant.

 

[HeartBlade]

Maybe off topic again but another thing that really bugs me about the ST is the dialogue and delivery. I feel Star Wars has always had a very calm but firm way of delivering dialogue and that made it grounded and timeless. Han’s “I know,” Obi Wan’s “from a certain point of view,” to Yoda’s discussion of the force.

The ST, especially RoS has terrible delivery that

How did we get from this:

To this?

I really did start hating Poe since he is basically talking like Tom Holland’s Spiderman despite having the role of Tony Stark/Captain America. Poe in the second scene sounds more like a Star Wars fan watching the movies than an actual character in the movie.

 

[harrisonp]

They also would never say “big ass door” in the OT (one of my biggest peeve lines). These movies are DEEPLY informed by the Marvel popularity and trying to capture a millennial/casual audience and they suffer for it. Basically everyone and especially millennials have seen Star Wars and dont need to be coerced into liking it if it’s done right.

 

[Joek3rr]

View attachment 1369637

• What is the state/jurisdiction of the New Republic?
• Why is Leia seemingly estranged from them/not able to communicate directly with them?
• Why is the Resistance? (No, really, why. Why is the new galactic government letting Space Nazis 2.0 amass power, kidnap masses of children, and establish a formidable fleet when their own forces have been reduced to almost nothing, and why does the New Republic apparently support this militia in the title crawl but not actually officially/openly do anything for them, or instead pass laws to start creating their own New Republic army/navy Cold War-style?)
  • My gosh, we couldn't even keep one short deleted scene of Leia at least referencing the fact that she's not on good terms with the NR Senate and has to send somebody else to plead her case so that at least we can give an ounce of crap when that same character gapes at the Magic Death Laser coming to blow up Not-Coruscant
• Who the heck is Lor San Tekka and why is he important? Why does he have a map piece? He's got more dialogue and on-screen gravitas than the guy Vader choked on the Tantive IV...
• For that matter, who the hell is Snoke
• And who the hell are the Knights of Ren

I could go on but I don't have all day - the ST is not the opening of the saga with us jumping in media res into the action with Star Wars back in 1977 when nothing else of this universe existed, and more importantly, it's resetting the status quo in a way that's highly illogical and distressing considering where we left off in Return of the Jedi. Because it's so unexpected to find ourselves having to watch another redundant Rebels vs. Empire story 30 years later, instead of a more sensible progression into a different conflict (like the PT did in showing political intrigue and a slide into a manipulated war), the start of the ST damn well better SHOW us why things are the way they are instead of going, "Leia's an underdog again with another ragtag band of freedom fighters and her and Han's kid is Bad™ and there's some shriveled Q-Tip leading a new Empire and here's a Mystery Box Girl™ wearing Luke Skywalker's trappings BECAUSE REASONS™ that we're not going to tell you while you're sitting here with your butt planted in a theater and we're not going to answer in the other two movies either."

View attachment 1369638

While it's true they don't go into details. I find everything we (or I) need to know is in the film. Beginning with the fact that Leia's Resistance even exists. And that's what the Resistance is. It's Leia's private army. Anyways the fact that Leia's army exists tells us that New Republic is either unable or unwilling to fight. Probably both. They are clearly small as New Republic and it's entire fleet is taken out in one shot. They all are seen to be double faced by Hux. "At this very moment, in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance." In short the absence of action on the part of New Republic speaks volumes to me.

Lor San Tekka is an old ally, according to the crawl. I don't see why we need to know anything else.

Snoke is strand cast built by Palpatine and the Sith Cult on Exegol to fight the New Republic and Luke's Jedi. Basically Snoke is to Palpatine as the Witch King of Angmar is to Sauron.

The Knights of Ren are a bunch of dudes that follow Kylo around. For what they are used for in the story I don't see why we need to know anything more.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Joek3rr]

The fact that there are so many mysteries left unanswered as does raise issues on the integrity of the ST. To add on to what was said:

Why did Finn “wake up” from his programming? Why have others not?

Who is the old man in the beginning?

So how exactly did Rey “learn” to use force mind control on the stormtrooper?

What is the deal with Leia and the resistance vs the new republic?

Why was the first order able to amass as much power as they had? Why is the new Republic not taking unified action against them? Hell, what is the new republic and how are they functioning?

What is the deal with Phasma? Who/what is she? What’s her relationship with Finn? It is sort of implied it is more than just commander and peon.

Hell, what was Finn’s role/relationships in the First Order? Was he just a cog? A close ally? A butt monkey?

The ST really leads with the opening crawl that Luke vanished and the First Order has been created. However, TFA shows that the First Order already has the resources to create Starkiller, a weapon that makes the Death Star look like a joke. How did a unknown young group make this happen?

The Empire in OT, you can infer that since they are head honcho they have a ton of money and so could spend the time and money on its development and as dictators, screw the opposition. The First Order is for all intents and purposes a “rebel group” to the New Republic. Small, young, and underfunded. Yet they had both the financing and capability to make this weapon. WTF was the new republic doing? If the intention of the ST was to make the audience hate the new Republic as well as not care about its destruction, it worked because if you allow the enemy to build a tank aimed at your capital and fire with no resistance, maybe you don’t deserve to be leading the galaxy.

TROS explained why Finn and the all other Stormtroopers woke up. The Force.

The old man is an old ally according to the title crawl. That's all we need to know.

Ugh. We've been through this. The Force is an instinct, you just do it, or you don't. Not everything has to be learned( see Luke's use of telekinesis and telepathy). But for what it's worth, Rey just experience first hand that the Force can be used to need with people's minds.

The New Republic is secretly supporting Leia's Resistance. It seems to me they are unable and/or unwilling to fight the First Order.

The First Order was apart of Palptine's plan to retake the galaxy. Pretty sure he's the reason they've got all the goodies they do.

Phasma is a Captain in the First Order. That's all we need to know. I don't see people asking about Admrial Piett or Grand Moff Tarkin.

Finn was a Stormtrooper that point is very very clearly established.

Again TROS established that Palpatine is behind the First Order. So they've been in the works since ROTJ, at least.

 

[ThreadSketch]

Ugh. We've been through this.

Yeah, because you, with your stan goggles on, won't let it go.* This thread might as well be named Let's Talk All Things Star Wars Sequels.

*Neither will we, because we can't believe the sheer density of your indiscriminate support and dogged persistence in circular arguments. But I'm out until we find something actually worthy of discussion again.

You're welcome to call me an "overweight glob of grease" as that's not terribly inaccurate.

 

[HeartBlade]

TROS explained why Finn and the all other Stormtroopers woke up. The Force.

The old man is an old ally according to the title crawl. That's all we need to know.

Ugh. We've been through this. The Force is an instinct, you just do it, or you don't. Not everything has to be learned( see Luke's use of telekinesis and telepathy). But for what it's worth, Rey just experience first hand that the Force can be used to need with people's minds.

The New Republic is secretly supporting Leia's Resistance. It seems to me they are unable and/or unwilling to fight the First Order.

The First Order was apart of Palptine's plan to retake the galaxy. Pretty sure he's the reason they've got all the goodies they do.

Phasma is a Captain in the First Order. That's all we need to know. I don't see people asking about Admrial Piett or Grand Moff Tarkin.

Finn was a Stormtrooper that point is very very clearly established.

Again TROS established that Palpatine is behind the First Order. So they've been in the works since ROTJ, at least.

1. That’s not how the force works. If the force woke up stormtroopers, why only Finn? What makes him standout? (Can’t day force sensitive either since its never established in film that he was)

2. No mention of the old dude in the crawl. He just opens with this is to make things right. We can leave it as a Mcguffin to speed the story along.

3. Never been how the force worked before but don’t want to rehash the same argument. Also hard to state instinct when Rey can suddenly use an advanced power (mind control) but has difficulty tapping into the force until a revelation by Ben in the final fight?

4. And why can’t they openly support Leia and fight the first order? It’s like the US government saying we won’t fight against terrorism but support this person’s private millitia against terrorism. This makes no sense.

5. Based on this reasoning, Palpatine is one of the richest fictional beings to have ever been created. This man bankrolled 2 functional Death Stars, Star killer base, new armors and military arms for an spin off militia, experimenting and creating multiple clones, and an unprecedented massive fleet of Star destroyers. And it’s not just the money either. How did Palpatine find the engineers, pilots, workers, staff, etc to build this huge fleet literally under the nose of the New Republic?

6. and yet Phasma has a very unique cool armor to standout. We learn quite a bit about Tarkin (he is Vader’s equal or superior, head of the Death Star, and ruthless in taking lives). He is the Himmler of the empire.

7. And yet Finn is described to have done a ton of things from working as a janitor on Starkiller base to getting traumatized by the killing in the opening of TFA when the others did not. He isn’t just a stormtrooper because he is the first stormtrooper to ever betray his regiment and team on film.

I would say many most points raised here are relatively minor plot holes, the big one is what is with the new Republic. There is no reason why a newly established government won’t assert monopoly power to secure their rule. That’s rebellion 101.

But honestly, the more I read about the New Republic and the Final Order, the more idiotic the two sides become. Starting from TFA, the new republic made blunder after blunder and it should have been an easy victory for the First Order. With the resources they had, the resistance should have been wiped out in the first couple of minutes in TLJ and the final battle against the “rag tag” fleet should have been an easy win unless the Final Order was actively trying to lose. I’m actually purposefully stopping myself from delving more into the lore because the more I read, the stupider both sides become and it’s just sad.

 

[Psab keel]

TROS explained why Finn and the all other Stormtroopers woke up. The Force.

The old man is an old ally according to the title crawl. That's all we need to know.

Ugh. We've been through this. The Force is an instinct, you just do it, or you don't. Not everything has to be learned( see Luke's use of telekinesis and telepathy). But for what it's worth, Rey just experience first hand that the Force can be used to need with people's minds.

The New Republic is secretly supporting Leia's Resistance. It seems to me they are unable and/or unwilling to fight the First Order.

The First Order was apart of Palptine's plan to retake the galaxy. Pretty sure he's the reason they've got all the goodies they do.

Phasma is a Captain in the First Order. That's all we need to know. I don't see people asking about Admrial Piett or Grand Moff Tarkin.

Finn was a Stormtrooper that point is very very clearly established.

Again TROS established that Palpatine is behind the First Order. So they've been in the works since ROTJ, at least.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Uh, didn't know where to ask this but rather than start a thread just to get an answer, I thought I'd ask here:

Has the PVC connector bit between the t-track barrel and the Webley on the RotJ EE3 rifle ever been identified?

 

[The Brahma Bull]

I read that they're trying to undo the sequels. They're putting in inconsistencies within the Mandalorian that match the OT and not the ST. I would love if they erase the ST. But I don't really believe it.

 

[Psab keel]

I heard rumblings of that too but I sincerely doubt they would decanonize their own cash cow. While I do hope they steer clear of it in the Mandalorian ( and if they're smart they mostly will) I don't think they will dismiss it altogether.

For a time I wished they would decanonize, but to me it's far too late. You can't undo the last 5 years of content, no matter how much I hate most of it, you can't erase history. I know George tries to constantly rewrite it but I think Kennedy is smarter than that.

I say let time be the judge. If the sequels are as great as the apologists claim, then let's see them hold up after a decade.

 

[harrisonp]

I read that they're trying to undo the sequels. They're putting in inconsistencies within the Mandalorian that match the OT and not the ST. I would love if they erase the ST. But I don't really believe it.

If they REALLY wanted to risk jumping the shark and angering the most rabid fans there is a way that was already introduced in Rebels. If they utilized the World Between Worlds to change the future they could erase them, but I think the backlash would be huge

 

[cboath]

Go the star trek route and add in an E6.5 that shows the ST happened in a mirror universe!