Lets talk all things Star Wars

[HeartBlade]

Except Disney isn't gonna end those IPs for new stuff. They want to milk the pre-existing IPs as long as they can. It's the reason why they purchased LucasFilms and Star Wars to begin with, because they knew fans would be desperate to watch anything with the Star Wars name on it (and due to the sequel trilogy and the Galaxy's Edge attraction, they've learned that's not always true). As long as some Star Wars property is making money, they'll keep it going until there's nothing left of it. The same is true with Indiana Jones. Hell, they started doing live-action remakes of their successful cartoons because they're afraid to try new properties that might not bring in any money for them. It's just a matter of time before Disney will need to wake up and evolve or crash and burn. That decision is up to them. And as long as Baby Yoda keeps bringing in the cash, they're not gonna close down Star Wars any time soon. That's just the unfortunate truth about the whole thing.

We’re in agreement here. The reason Disney paid $4 billion for Lucasfilm is undoubtably for the rights to make Star Wars and Indiana Jones films and they are going to milk those franchises until the udders are dry and then some. They already made their money back apparently so any future milking is pure profit. Same reason they bought Marvel and had the MCU not taken off, we probably would have gotten constant reboots of Ironman, Captain America, etc if they were popular enough.

I can believe that - halfway. Well, at least the first sentence. However, where if falls apart is that what you put out does worse than 'lose skwyalker', it kicks dirt all over it and leaves it behind. Rey adopting the name doesn't keep Skywalker alive when all indications are she has no desire to return to it. I mean, i could become a writer/director and adopt the name Sean Lucas (neither are part of my legal name, nor as far as know used by anyone in my extended family). Using that name doesn't connect me to George Lucas in any way shape or form. No one is going to go out and see my work because i use the last name Lucas. In fact, i'd get more negative feedback, i'm sure, when people ask the question if there's any relation and they find out there isn't, i just like GL's work.

No one really ever answered the question a number of people posed over the years, either. That question is, if you're bringing SW back and doing sequels, what is the point of dumping on the OT cast (and story as is the case with palps in 9) - when your biggest asset is the existing fanbase and that the fanbase with (by far) the most amount of money to spend on stuff is the OT fanbase? Rule number one of business, don't piss of the people with the money.

What executive looks at the stories presented and thinks that's great, everyone will love that? I mean, i had no interest in the Twilight books/movies. But if i'm an exec, i don't have a subsidiary starting a revival where to trash the stuff that came before. And to head of some people's arguments, it doesn't matter one bit if some people don't agree. The fact is a large segment of those fans will hate it. That's a no win situation. Why bother with it? Jump down the line and do a new thing.

Jump 100-1000 years forward or backward. There's nothing really official there to step on. Go there and do whatever you want. In the case of ST - i've said many a time, replace Han/Luke/Leia with three new people have the same basic jobs and what changes? Nothing. Nothing required Kylo to be a descendant of Anakin. Nothing required Han or Leia. Just someone from a good family who went bad and then everything largely plays out identically. I mean, really, we still didn't have loads of information about the Jedi after the PT. Just out 100 years and Luke can still be an aged master. Who says life isn't pro-longed by the force or he found a method to do just that? There's your OT tie in for fans, but lukes students have to do the lifting because of his age. it's more of a pro-longed cameo than anything else.

Not sure what you mean here. I was proposing a hypothetical ST that would occur 100 years or more after the OT instead of the ST we got so that we get to visit a new world (post-OT galaxy) where the OT’s legacy remains intact in that their revolution was successful but because they passed away due to old age, they can’t address the new emerging threat.

I agree that Rey “Skywalker” screws over the Skywalker legacy and the ST completely ruined Star Wars by basically making the Palpatines the victors. She has no lineage or affiliation with the Skywalkers (apart from the theory that Palpatine is Anakin’s dad which would then make her Ben’s aunt/cousin), received minimal training from them, and basically took everything that was Luke’s from his victory and feats to his actual property. Disney really screwed the pooch here and their aggressive stance against the fans certainly made things worse. When has it ever been a good idea to insult your top paying customers?

 

[harrisonp]

I don’t know how you have a beloved piece of expanded fiction like the Thrawn trilogy and NOT sit down with it on day one when planning your ROTJ follow-up.

 

[Psab keel]

The whole ST rendered every sacrifice by the OT cast utterly useless. I know that new threats emerge all the time in continuing sagas but having it literally be Palpatine all over again was the final nail in that coffin. So incredibly stupid.

At least Snoke had potential to be something new. I just can't fathom the lack of creativity they showed. It was like the easiest payday Lucasfilm made and they only had to ruin everything in order to get it. What a waste.

 

[Joek3rr]

The clone idea honestly doesn’t make sense though since the clones were based off Jango after (a talented bounty hunter) instead of a Jedi because cloning technology couldn’t transfer force sensitivity. I would have preferred Snoke being a completely different kind of villain like a conman/warlord. After all, the Sith are gone but that doesn’t mean evil is gone from the world. Not every big bad has to be a sith.

Honestly the big issue with the ST from the start was that it wasn’t a story that needed to be explored. There is nothing really new that came from ST that contributed to building the world of Star Wars, just some concepts that hurt the narrative going forward.

The dyad concept that was basically touched upon as “balance” from TLJ is honestly one of the stupidest concepts that both create plot holes and remove any tension from the movie.

First, balance isn’t the equal weighting of light and dark. We know this because Lucas expressed that idea is wrong and it would also not make sense for the Jedi to seek balance (the light was dominant in PT, why would they want to strengthen the dark side?).

The light and dark rising to meet each other in equal measure (this Rey being as powerful as Ben despite no training is equally stupid). If this is the case, why has this never occurred before? In PT, why did Maul lose to Obi wan? There were only 2 Sith vs thousands of Jedi so if there is balance, Maul should be stronger than most knights.

OT, it makes even less sense. In OT, the only real Jedi left who could fight is Luke (maybe Leia). Luke got his ass handed to him in ESB and basically was equal or slightly weaker than Vader by RotJ. Luke was decimated by Palpatine. If the balance theory is true, why wasn’t Luke granted enough power in the force to be equal to the emperor? Hell, why didn’t Leia also take up a saber. Sure she had no training but based on balance, she should be equally as capable as Luke.

Finally, the dyad theory is lazy and removes any tension in a fight. These 2 dudes are dyads, that means they are equal to each other in strength and capability. No need to train, the characters will automatically scale to each other regardless of how much or how little training they have.

Training and focus have always played a huge role in Star Wars. Obi wan beat Anakin because he knows how he fights but also trains a lot in the force so could equal Anakin despite the later’s potential. Luke finally rivaled Vader because of his training. This automatic power buff that allowed Rey to suddenly become one of the strongest Jedi ever and unlock healing powers is why Rey is called a Mary Sue.

No that's not quite right.

The Force during the PT is very much out of balance. It's unbalanced towards the dark side. Yoda says in AOTC that the shroud of the dark side has fallen. In ROTS Obi-Wan tells Anakin that he was supposed to bring balance to the Force and leave it darkness. In the latest season of The Clone Wars, Maul states that the dark side has never been stronger. The Force is clearly out of balance.

-------

And on the subject of the balance of the Force. Balance is indeed both the light and dark and not absence of dark. I have about a half dozen George Lucas quotes where he talks about this. But I'll refrain from using those and simply draw your attention to the symbols used to illustrate that nature of the Force.

First let's look at the symbols for the light and dark sides of the Force. Notice that each symbol exists within the other. They can not exist without the other. There can be no light without the dark and no dark without the light. The Force itself is dyadic in nature. It is two that are one.

Next let's look at the two symbols which illustrate the balance of the Force. They both Yin Yang inspired. The first one we see is on Mortis. It clearly shows that balance is both the light and dark, and not the absence of dark. Notice that both symbols that represent the sides of the Force exist together in the middle.

The next symbol is the 'Prime Jedi' mosaic on Ahch-To. Again it shows that balance is both the light and dark sides of the Force.

And this why the Dyad is so perfect in TROS here we have two people, one represting the light and the other dark. They are two that are one, just like the Force itself. And and conclusion of the film they are two that literally become one. This fan made artwork I believe sums this perfectly.

-------

Why did Maul loose? Because he stood like an idiot and let Obi-Wan cut him in half. Maul had the upper hand in the fight, he defeated Qui-Gon and basically defeated Obi-Wan.

---------

The light rising to meet the darkness totally works in the OT. Yes he's beaten at first, but that's because he's not ready to fight. He's got to much anger and fear, and must control those. And that means he's going down the path the dark side. He's basically fighting the dark side with dark side. But it's when he realizes he's loosing himself to the dark side, he throws away his lightsaber. That the power of the light allows him to not fight. And to finally let go. That action ripples then to his father.

-------

And on training. Obi-Wan beat Anakin because Anakin got arrogant. Luke rivaled Vader because of his training? What training? Luke does not receive any training after ESB.

Training in the Force is not necessary. There 5 characters in Star Wars which illustrate this. Anakin, who shows the ability not see things before they happen along with hightened reflexes. A Rodian toddler in The Clone Wars that uses telekinesis. Rey who uses telekinesis and a mind trick. 'Broom Boy's from TLJ uses telekinesis. And now 'The Child'in The Mandalorian who shows the ability to use telekinesis and healing. And of course we Luke who uses telekinesis and telepathy, even though neither of those abilities were taught to him.

How is this possible? It's because of the Force works. The Force is instinctive, which is how Obi-Wan describes it to Luke. Like breathing. It doesn't require great thought or concentration, in fact it's opposite. It requires the user to let go, to clear their mind, to believe and trust. This is why Luke has such a hard time. He is pessimistic and has doubts, unbelief, and fear. And it's why children are often seen using the Force. As they just don't know any better. They just do it.

Now that's not to say there isn't any training at all. Obviously there is. Luke again needed training, because of his age, and mental state. Also training comes into play in teaching the 'Ways of the Force.' Buts not about learning this power or that power. It's about teaching a person how to live, think, exist, so that they are always aware and open flow of the Force. The so called Force powers will just come.

And about Rey and healing. No this doesn't make her the most powerful Jedi ever to live. I mean if it did, what does that make 'The Child'? What does make Rey. Is someone who had studied the ancient Jedi texts and is apart of Dyad.

 

[harrisonp]

I won’t be reading it I’m sorry, but I have to applaud you for how thoroughly prepared you were while writing that all out.

 

[BTTUK]

I won’t be reading it I’m sorry, but I have to applaud you for how thoroughly prepared you were while writing that all out.

Basically he says you're wrong...

 

[cboath]

Especially when there's video out there of George saying balance was the absence of the dark side.

 

[Joek3rr]

Especially when there's video out there of George saying balance was the absence of the dark side.

Source?

 

[HeartBlade]

Source?

he is likely refers to this.

Redirect Notice

George Lucas defines balance as the removal of the toxicity of the dark side, a la the removal of toxins from blood. You return things to balance by eliminating whatever is causing them to go out of whack; thus, you keep the Force in balance by making the light side pure and free of the dark side.

While I agree that balance in the force does not necessitate the elimination of the dark side since that concept has been discussed at length in more recent iterations of Star Wars, it also doesn’t mean the perfect balance of light and dark because that would also necessitate that if the light were strong, the Jedi would work to raise the dark side. That’s stupid.

Hell the whole point of the rule of 2 by Darth Bane was to limit the number of vessels to inherit the dark side, making each individual vessel stronger in the process with the concept one has the power, the other craves it and kills the master to get it. If the light and dark were truly equal, every Sith should be immensely stronger than every jedi because there are fewer under the rule of 2.

Regarding training, yes there is a ton of training. Luke in OT putting on the helmet to learn to reach out to the force, the Dagobah scene where he learns that size matters not when using the force, the fact that he builds his own lightsaber in between ESB and RotJ shows that Luke was involved in more training in the interim period, hence why he is so much stronger in RotJ than in ESB. Can you imagine ESB Luke using force persuasion or staying calm and collected in front of the rancor? That display of Luke was to show how much of a badass Jedi he had grown into in the interim.

Anakin also trains. In Episode 2, he gets destroyed by Dooku easily. In 3, he states his powers have doubled since they last fought and this time easily beats Dooku solo. That comes from training, both in the force and in lightsaber combat. It has also been established in PT that there are people with different levels of affinity for the force (hence measuring midiclorians) and Anakin even surpassed Yoda. Yet Obi wan, who don’t particularly gifted, is able to match Anakin in a force push duel because he has more training and experience. Get out of here with the no training needed BS.

I can’t really comment on the child but yes, the child is also pretty OP because it has the power to immediately heal anything with the force with no cost to itself. Given how valuable any healing is (Luke from a Wampa attack was MIA and in a full bacta tank, Qui Gon was dead due to a single stab in his stomach), an individual who can provide healing with no cost of resources is going to be OP in any iteration of fiction. The fact that Rey can heal anything with the force is OP, as is the child and removes tension unless there is some limiting factor.

 

[HeartBlade]

Regarding my balance in the force, it becomes an issue of semantics but although the dark and light sides of the force must always exist, there is never a mention of the need for them to be equal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/7sxp3s

This Reddit poster goes over quotes over the years of Lucas regarding balance in the force and although he affirms that both the dark and light must exist and cannot be eliminated, there is nothing about them needing to be an equal amount. This concept of equal likely comes from the idea of balance must be both sides but be equal in amount.

noun
noun: balance; plural noun: balances

1. 1.
   an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady.
   
2. a situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.
   
   However, balance can also mean the correct proportion, like a “balanced diet” doesn’t mean eat as much sugar as you do protein but the right proportions of each for a healthy body. Given the emphasis on the health of the force and its idea as a living being, a disproportional amount of light or dark is bad. But that doesn’t mean there needs to be an equal amount of light and dark but the right proportion.

it is also why it is just stupid and narratively limiting to conceive balance as just the equal number of Jedi and Sith. In PT, there was far more jedi than Sith but the dark side was proportionally too much as Joker pointed out. In OT, there were still more Jedi than Sith (Palp and Vader vs Yoda, Obi Wan, and Luke in addition to extended universe Jedi) but it was overwhelmingly in favor of the dark side.

What would have been interesting (and a good reason for Luke’s disillusionment of the Jedi) could have been Luke finding out what the true balance of the force needed to be or that true balance is impossible to maintain and thus the existence of Jedi will always birth the rise of the Sith and conflict, thus his decision to end the Jedi because although in the short term there will be strife, in the long term there is a possibility of guaranteed peace because there are no Jedi or Sith to upset the balance, with Rey or Ben or whomever to arrive and work with Luke to achieve that balance and restore his faith. This takes away from exploding spaceships and lightsaber battles for deep introspection so I see why Disney didn’t bother.

 

[BTTUK]

It could be argued that The Child's use of healing could be linked to his bond with Din, with his force power being linked to his species with Yoda being a prime example. I have nothing concrete to back up my thoughts, beyond wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Joek3rr]

Regarding training, yes there is a ton of training. Luke in OT putting on the helmet to learn to reach out to the force, the Dagobah scene where he learns that size matters not when using the force, the fact that he builds his own lightsaber in between ESB and RotJ shows that Luke was involved in more training in the interim period, hence why he is so much stronger in RotJ than in ESB. Can you imagine ESB Luke using force persuasion or staying calm and collected in front of the rancor? That display of Luke was to show how much of a badass Jedi he had grown into in the interim.

Anakin also trains. In Episode 2, he gets destroyed by Dooku easily. In 3, he states his powers have doubled since they last fought and this time easily beats Dooku solo. That comes from training, both in the force and in lightsaber combat. It has also been established in PT that there are people with different levels of affinity for the force (hence measuring midiclorians) and Anakin even surpassed Yoda. Yet Obi wan, who don’t particularly gifted, is able to match Anakin in a force push duel because he has more training and experience. Get out of here with the no training needed BS.

I didn't say there wasn't any training at all. I even said that there was. But......

....if training is NEEDED why do we see people using the Force without a lick of training? Explain it to me? How are children who can't even speak yet, using the Force?

Yes there appears to some sort levels of affinity, which related to their midi-chlorian count. But it seems to me that some have game-ified the Force. (Not saying you are, but some have) They act like the mechanics of KOTOR is how the Force works. Like Force Sensitives level up, unlock powers. Then those powers level up. But that's just not how it works.
There's a wonderful page in The Rise of Kylo Ren comic that explains the Force beautifully, in my opinion.

And then we have Pablo Hildago's comments.
"Years of gamification has led some to think of the Force as 'powers' that are 'unlocked', when nothing in the films suggest this. It's instead presented as a state of mind, with the pathway of the 'light' being the sublimation of the self, while the dark the amplification of it."

"In this way of thinking, it's not a question of when Luke learned the 'telekinesis power'. It's about learning to clear his mind, to get out of his own way, his own doubts, to do it. We've seen toddlers having this ability because they don't have enough self to get in the way."

 

[harrisonp]

I’m skimming, but “the Force is for everyone” type sentiment is why I’m totally cool with Rey matching a wounded Ben on Starkiller base, her whole life up to that point was based on hope and faith in the unseen, but she should have then gone through a tribulation that gave her doubt and made her connection difficult. Thus requiring Luke to show her the spiritual and not just physical side of the Force.

 

[HeartBlade]

I didn't say there wasn't any training at all. I even said that there was. But......

....if training is NEEDED why do we see people using the Force without a lick of training? Explain it to me? How are children who can't even speak yet, using the Force?

Yes there appears to some sort levels of affinity, which related to their midi-chlorian count. But it seems to me that some have game-ified the Force. (Not saying you are, but some have) They act like the mechanics of KOTOR is how the Force works. Like Force Sensitives level up, unlock powers. Then those powers level up. But that's just not how it works.
There's a wonderful page in The Rise of Kylo Ren comic that explains the Force beautifully, in my opinion.
View attachment 1365102

And then we have Pablo Hildago's comments.
"Years of gamification has led some to think of the Force as 'powers' that are 'unlocked', when nothing in the films suggest this. It's instead presented as a state of mind, with the pathway of the 'light' being the sublimation of the self, while the dark the amplification of it."
View attachment 1365103
"In this way of thinking, it's not a question of when Luke learned the 'telekinesis power'. It's about learning to clear his mind, to get out of his own way, his own doubts, to do it. We've seen toddlers having this ability because they don't have enough self to get in the way."
View attachment 1365104

Just what are you talking about? The only people we see using the force without a lick of training are in the ST (Rey and Broom boy) whose lore is honestly in contention. We don’t see anyone in the PT or OT that can use the force without a lick of training. If you are talking about the child, you know it is estimated to be 50 years old and we know nothing about the Yoda race of the child’s past. 50 years is a long time to begin learning to use the force. The Jedi themselves had to learn with experimentation, they likely didn’t have some deity come down and teach them how to use the force. Maybe the first Jedi teacher was a Yoda.

PT - Anakin has really fast instincts so he can drive a pod racer. He is also the one (unrivaled force potential) so he is the exception to the rule. Still is unable to force push or pull or manipulate with the force.

OT - Luke can’t do anything with the force. He begins to be able to sense by reaching out with instruction from Obi Wan. Luke is also incredibly gifted since he is a Skywalker.

Your understanding of gamification is completely wrong. Gamification is adding a game-like interface on a non-gaming structure (banking, education) to motivate a target audience into repeating a certain action, using instant feedback and rewards to motivate the target. It is not the adding of skill points.

in terms of kids being able to use the force in PT, you forget that Jedi take force-sensitive children to train as Jedi in their infancy and begin training early. So even kids as young as 5 can use basic applications of the force because they had training from a young age. It’s also why Anakin was initially denied at the ripe old age of 9. He had too many attachments and was arguably behind his peers except that as the one, he was incredibly talented with the force.

Regarding Luke, you know teachers can lie right? Luke is trying his student I’m assuming so he is telling her that just because Ben can do something she can’t doesn’t mean she can never do it. If she tries hard and applies her self, with practice and training she will be able to achieve the feat that Ben did. (Don’t know the context so can’t comment further). Furthermore, you can open a door wider but you can’t make the door bigger. Ben might just have a castle gate for a door while she has a doggy door. She has to open wider to let the same amount of current through and may reach his limit before him. No one said the sizes of the doors were the same.

There are definitely applications of the force that are much harder to do than others. Force push and pull seem to be quite easy while mind control seems to require more finesse.

And if instruction isn’t necessary and everyone is equal, the entire PT story makes no sense. Why is the Jedi structured the way it is (Jedi temple for instruction, a Jedi knight and Padawan for work study) if instruction and training isn’t needed? Why do Jedi spend their lifetime in the temple training like monks if everyone can just use the force fully if they “free their mind?”

Furthermore, if every force user is the same and can achieve the same things, why did Palpatine single out Anakin to be his Sith apprentice? He already had Maul and Dooku came to him, an already trained and wise Jedi knight. But he threw them away for Anakin. It’s clear it’s because Anakin has incredible force potential and under Palpatine’s tutelage in the dark side, he would be stronger than both Palpatine and Yoda. Palpatine could foresee this because Anakin was the chosen one with a high midiclorian count and thus had the potential to achieve things with the force that no one else could had he not been maimed on Mustafar.

There are also force users using highly skilled force powers that others could not. Windu could use shatterpoints, Dooku and Palpatine force lightning, Yoda absorbing force lightning. These feats were definitely achieved because these Jedi trained to get those skills but also because they were also incredibly talented in the force (Obi Wan never learned to absorb force lighting or shoot force lightning even though it would have been very useful).

 

[Psab keel]

 

[ThreadSketch]

View attachment 1365180

I mean, he did woke up like this:

please take Photoshop away from me

 

[Psab keel]

It looks like Divine! Bwahahaha

 

[Joek3rr]

Just what are you talking about? The only people we see using the force without a lick of training are in the ST (Rey and Broom boy) whose lore is honestly in contention. We don’t see anyone in the PT or OT that can use the force without a lick of training. If you are talking about the child, you know it is estimated to be 50 years old and we know nothing about the Yoda race of the child’s past. 50 years is a long time to begin learning to use the force. The Jedi themselves had to learn with experimentation, they likely didn’t have some deity come down and teach them how to use the force. Maybe the first Jedi teacher was a Yoda.

PT - Anakin has really fast instincts so he can drive a pod racer. He is also the one (unrivaled force potential) so he is the exception to the rule. Still is unable to force push or pull or manipulate with the force.

OT - Luke can’t do anything with the force. He begins to be able to sense by reaching out with instruction from Obi Wan. Luke is also incredibly gifted since he is a Skywalker.

Your understanding of gamification is completely wrong. Gamification is adding a game-like interface on a non-gaming structure (banking, education) to motivate a target audience into repeating a certain action, using instant feedback and rewards to motivate the target. It is not the adding of skill points.

in terms of kids being able to use the force in PT, you forget that Jedi take force-sensitive children to train as Jedi in their infancy and begin training early. So even kids as young as 5 can use basic applications of the force because they had training from a young age. It’s also why Anakin was initially denied at the ripe old age of 9. He had too many attachments and was arguably behind his peers except that as the one, he was incredibly talented with the force.

Regarding Luke, you know teachers can lie right? Luke is trying his student I’m assuming so he is telling her that just because Ben can do something she can’t doesn’t mean she can never do it. If she tries hard and applies her self, with practice and training she will be able to achieve the feat that Ben did. (Don’t know the context so can’t comment further). Furthermore, you can open a door wider but you can’t make the door bigger. Ben might just have a castle gate for a door while she has a doggy door. She has to open wider to let the same amount of current through and may reach his limit before him. No one said the sizes of the doors were the same.

There are definitely applications of the force that are much harder to do than others. Force push and pull seem to be quite easy while mind control seems to require more finesse.

And if instruction isn’t necessary and everyone is equal, the entire PT story makes no sense. Why is the Jedi structured the way it is (Jedi temple for instruction, a Jedi knight and Padawan for work study) if instruction and training isn’t needed? Why do Jedi spend their lifetime in the temple training like monks if everyone can just use the force fully if they “free their mind?”

Furthermore, if every force user is the same and can achieve the same things, why did Palpatine single out Anakin to be his Sith apprentice? He already had Maul and Dooku came to him, an already trained and wise Jedi knight. But he threw them away for Anakin. It’s clear it’s because Anakin has incredible force potential and under Palpatine’s tutelage in the dark side, he would be stronger than both Palpatine and Yoda. Palpatine could foresee this because Anakin was the chosen one with a high midiclorian count and thus had the potential to achieve things with the force that no one else could had he not been maimed on Mustafar.

There are also force users using highly skilled force powers that others could not. Windu could use shatterpoints, Dooku and Palpatine force lightning, Yoda absorbing force lightning. These feats were definitely achieved because these Jedi trained to get those skills but also because they were also incredibly talented in the force (Obi Wan never learned to absorb force lighting or shoot force lightning even though it would have been
very useful).

This is what I'm talking about.

My point in all this is to say that training isn't a prerequisite to using the Force. Is their training? Obviously there is. But isn't a prerequisite.

Yoda is 900 years old. Obi-Wan says the Jedi have been around for a thousand generations. No way Yoda is the first Jedi teacher.

Everyone isn't equal. The Force is available to all who can sense it. But everyone is different, everyone has different mental state. That little toddler is doing stuff that Luke is struggling with.

The Jedi have training obviously. Because they are literally raising kids into functioning adults. Kids that have great power. The training most likely focuses on staying open, calm, and centered even when the bantha poodoo hits the fan. So this kids don't fall to the dark side. I feel like some think Jedi training Yoda taking the younglings and being all like 'hmm, today, class we learn how to lift small objects.' Then a month later, 'learn how to lift heavier objects we will.' I think that's a completely incorrect way of viewing the Force. Rather the training is probably teaching the young Jedi to open up, and let go, clear their mind. And to be able to do this in extremely stress situations. The "powers" will come naturally.

Side thought. I wonder how the Jedi contain little Force sensitives that are having tantrums? I have mental images of a little kid screaming while lightning flies out of their fingers

Anakin was a very special case, seeing he was miraculously conceived by the Force. Also he's supposedly to destroy Palpatine. So I could see why Palpatine would be eager to turn him.

Yes there are abilities that some have that others do not. I don't know if these abilities are taught though. I would say that this a case of everyone being different. What one person has as an innate ability another does not. Psychometry for instance seems to be an ability that a select few have. But can it be taught? I tend think that it can't.

You bring Yoda's power, which is called Force Deflection. Yoda isn't the only one with this ability. In fact, in Legends Obi-Wan had this ability. Force deflection

 

[HeartBlade]

This is what I'm talking about.
View attachment 1365240

My point in all this is to say that training isn't a prerequisite to using the Force. Is their training? Obviously there is. But isn't a prerequisite.

Yoda is 900 years old. Obi-Wan says the Jedi have been around for a thousand generations. No way Yoda is the first Jedi teacher.

Everyone isn't equal. The Force is available to all who can sense it. But everyone is different, everyone has different mental state. That little toddler is doing stuff that Luke is struggling with.

The Jedi have training obviously. Because they are literally raising kids into functioning adults. Kids that have great power. The training most likely focuses on staying open, calm, and centered even when the bantha poodoo hits the fan. So this kids don't fall to the dark side. I feel like some think Jedi training Yoda taking the younglings and being all like 'hmm, today, class we learn how to lift small objects.' Then a month later, 'learn how to lift heavier objects we will.' I think that's a completely incorrect way of viewing the Force. Rather the training is probably teaching the young Jedi to open up, and let go, clear their mind. And to be able to do this in extremely stress situations. The "powers" will come naturally.

Side thought. I wonder how the Jedi contain little Force sensitives that are having tantrums? I have mental images of a little kid screaming while lightning flies out of their fingers

Anakin was a very special case, seeing he was miraculously conceived by the Force. Also he's supposedly to destroy Palpatine. So I could see why Palpatine would be eager to turn him.

Yes there are abilities that some have that others do not. I don't know if these abilities are taught though. I would say that this a case of everyone being different. What one person has as an innate ability another does not. Psychometry for instance seems to be an ability that a select few have. But can it be taught? I tend think that it can't.

You bring Yoda's power, which is called Force Deflection. Yoda isn't the only one with this ability. In fact, in Legends Obi-Wan had this ability. Force deflection

Ugh I think I give up. I’m really just talking with a dude who is so fixed in his way of thinking that anything that could possibly be to the contrary must be wrong.

I don’t know about that one screenshot. There is so much Star Wars material floating around that some stuff will naturally conflict with each other. Maybe some people are more attuned to the force but cannot draw out as much while others can but have trouble controlling the tide.

I said a Yoda-like person, not Yoda himself. He definitely isn’t the first Jedi grand master but there is no species name for the Yodas, hence a Yoda not the yoda.

If we are going with legends material as canon, then we know how the Jedi train, at least in PT. The Jedi apprentice series by Jude Watson basically goes into depth what the career path is like for a Jedi.

Infant: taken by Jedi, doesn’t know family.
1-13: trained in the ways of the force and lightsaber combat. Lightsaber combat is sparring against training droids and each other. They also do things like climb walls, meditation, learning about history of stuff, etc. they then prove themselves to prospective knights to become a padawan through the initiate test. I think the rule was if a prospective was not chosen as a padawan by 13, they can no longer be a Jedi knight and become pilots, farmers, etc. Obi Wan almost met this fate.

Padawan to knight: the padawan learns under the knight and further refined their saber skills and force usage. They then take the trials to become a knight.

Knight tends to be endgame. To become a master, you needed to train several apprentices to knighthood or achieve some big feats so Masters were very rare. And you needed to be a highly accomplished master to be elected to sit on the council (Anakin being an exception).

And all that is training. Sure as a force user it’s not like you are doing 5 reps of lifting 5 small stones before moving up to boulders, then x-wings but there is still a gradual progression in learning to harness the force to a greater extent that comes through instruction.

In ESB, Luke was practicing using the force while in a one arm handstand, carefully balancing small rocks on top of each other. It is later that Yoda tells him to lift the x-wing and Luke says he can’t, because he doesn’t think it is possible so Yoda shows him it can be. This is the gradual progression Luke needed to go through to get stronger in using the force, not just immediately lift Star destroyers. Sure the force isn’t some muscle you need to build up but it’s also not something you can just achieve my meditating, at least in the beginning.

And it seems we agree that Anakin was exception, that not all force sensitives are created equal with some possessing more force affinity than others and can thus call on the force more easily or even call on more of the force than others. Again, if we go by legends, Palpatine can create a force storm which he learned from an ancient Sith book. But it’s not like all Sith, let alone all force sensitives, can summon force storms. It requires both the capability to call a lot of the force as well intricate capability in the force which is why Palpatine is one of the rare few who could summon one.

 

[Joek3rr]

Ugh I think I give up. I’m really just talking with a dude who is so fixed in his way of thinking that anything that could possibly be to the contrary must be wrong.

I don’t know about that one screenshot. There is so much Star Wars material floating around that some stuff will naturally conflict with each other. Maybe some people are more attuned to the force but cannot draw out as much while others can but have trouble controlling the tide.

I said a Yoda-like person, not Yoda himself. He definitely isn’t the first Jedi grand master but there is no species name for the Yodas, hence a Yoda not the yoda.

If we are going with legends material as canon, then we know how the Jedi train, at least in PT. The Jedi apprentice series by Jude Watson basically goes into depth what the career path is like for a Jedi.

Infant: taken by Jedi, doesn’t know family.
1-13: trained in the ways of the force and lightsaber combat. Lightsaber combat is sparring against training droids and each other. They also do things like climb walls, meditation, learning about history of stuff, etc. they then prove themselves to prospective knights to become a padawan through the initiate test. I think the rule was if a prospective was not chosen as a padawan by 13, they can no longer be a Jedi knight and become pilots, farmers, etc. Obi Wan almost met this fate.

Padawan to knight: the padawan learns under the knight and further refined their saber skills and force usage. They then take the trials to become a knight.

Knight tends to be endgame. To become a master, you needed to train several apprentices to knighthood or achieve some big feats so Masters were very rare. And you needed to be a highly accomplished master to be elected to sit on the council (Anakin being an exception).

And all that is training. Sure as a force user it’s not like you are doing 5 reps of lifting 5 small stones before moving up to boulders, then x-wings but there is still a gradual progression in learning to harness the force to a greater extent that comes through instruction.

In ESB, Luke was practicing using the force while in a one arm handstand, carefully balancing small rocks on top of each other. It is later that Yoda tells him to lift the x-wing and Luke says he can’t, because he doesn’t think it is possible so Yoda shows him it can be. This is the gradual progression Luke needed to go through to get stronger in using the force, not just immediately lift Star destroyers. Sure the force isn’t some muscle you need to build up but it’s also not something you can just achieve my meditating, at least in the beginning.

And it seems we agree that Anakin was exception, that not all force sensitives are created equal with some possessing more force affinity than others and can thus call on the force more easily or even call on more of the force than others. Again, if we go by legends, Palpatine can create a force storm which he learned from an ancient Sith book. But it’s not like all Sith, let alone all force sensitives, can summon force storms. It requires both the capability to call a lot of the force as well intricate capability in the force which is why Palpatine is one of the rare few who could summon one.

But it's not my way of thinking. I'm trying to only present what is told to us.

But I was incorrect in believing that all Force abilities are innate. Some abilities are innate to certain individuals. But some are taught.

Here's a few excerpts from this The Force

Except Luke really isn't getting stronger, per se. More that he's removing his mental blocks, it's his pessimism and unbelief which hinder him. Something that a toddler for instance wouldn't have.