Lets talk all things Star Wars
HeartBlade
Sr Member
so directly opposing Mark Hamil who was on set and told us that George always had a vision of where he wanted to go which is different from these current films? And the fact that Lucas then penned 3 trilogy’s, the OT focusing on Luke developing into a Jedi knight is all hogwash?
yes there is a difference between Feige and Kennedy and the results show it. Feige and Lucas were both fanboys with a vision. They wanted to do something new with cinema and this had a goal they wanted to develop. Kennedy honestly sounds like she has little interest in Star Wars as a franchise and thus producing it was just another job for her. It’s clear that the passion comes through with the MCU, OT, or even the PT but the ST is just a cash grab. Thanks pointing that out.
It’s not like we haven’t seen the impact passion and vision have for films. Peter Jackson was dying to create Lord of the Rings so his iteration put to film is one of the best novel adaptations and cinematic masterpieces in recent times. The Hobbit trilogy that he was forced to direct after being burned out is garbage.
And if you call that one page a plan, lol. All they are saying is that female power is hot right now, let’s use that as a central theme with Leia as a Jedi/mentor character. Good concept but the question is why does Leia need to come back into the fold as a mentor? Why is Luke not the mentor? What is the pressing threat that the original OT cast can’t tackle and why can’t they tackle it. What makes the new cast capable for the mission that the more experienced cast cannot?
As yes, you are right. Kennedy did create the story group and JJ apparently went as far as to create scripts for the entire trilogy. It’s too bad this happened.
Did Rian Johnson Throw Away Abrams' Story For 'The Last Jedi?'
One of the "Star Wars" stars discusses just how much of a disconnect existed between the creative teams of 'The Force Awakens' and 'The Last Jedi.'
theplaylist.net
J. J. wrote ‘Episode VII,’ he also wrote drafts for ‘VIII’ & ‘IX.’ Then Rian arrived and re-wrote [‘The Last Jedi’] entirely.
It doesn’t matter how good of a plan/outline you set up if the plan is unilaterally thrown away. A discarded plan is the same as starting with no plan.
And if it were true that Kennedy was running to Filoni to confirm every script change, then it’s self-evident that Filoni should have been the one in charge of the trilogy, not Kennedy. He has the knowledge and the buck essentially stops with him then. These arnt people sitting around being able to leisurely discuss any change on a moments notice, these are busy people leading their own projects. If Kennedy was so uncertain of Star Wars lore, she shouldn’t be the head leading the ST.
This is pretty self-evident for any project. Would you feel comfortable building a car that is being project managed by a person who has no idea how cars worked and kept going to the chief engineer of another project to see if the changes are ok? Why not just put that chief engineer as the lead of the project then.
Yes Lucas put her in charge but he also probably thought she was going to be loyal to him and his vision (hence the shock when his sequel treatments were scrapped) and that she knew more about Star Wars than she actually does.
I never said you did say that. I don't think you are intentionally doing it, but your reply makes my point of them being in a rush to get films out, far stronger, rather than disproving it. But as I said, make of it what you will.
sztriki
Sr Member
Surely you realize that it's 99% completely different than what ended up as TROS? I mean Colin Trevorrow's only tentpole movie to thqt date was Jurassic World which was a totally safe JP reboot, essentially the TFA of Jurassic Park. Are we to assume he just went rogue and wrote 100% whatever he wanted when there was a plan all along? Sure he got fired so I'm sure there were creative differences. It's only my guess but I could imagine KK or whomever disagreeing over not having a redemption arc for Kylo or something like that but the script and plot is so wildly different to the final TROS one that it does give the impression that the story was not mapped out and they just disliked what CT came up with.
Joek3rr
Master Member
so directly opposing Mark Hamil who was on set and told us that George always had a vision of where he wanted to go which is different from these current films? And the fact that Lucas then penned 3 trilogy’s, the OT focusing on Luke developing into a Jedi knight is all hogwash?
yes there is a difference between Feige and Kennedy and the results show it. Feige and Lucas were both fanboys with a vision. They wanted to do something new with cinema and this had a goal they wanted to develop. Kennedy honestly sounds like she has little interest in Star Wars as a franchise and thus producing it was just another job for her. It’s clear that the passion comes through with the MCU, OT, or even the PT but the ST is just a cash grab. Thanks pointing that out.
It’s not like we haven’t seen the impact passion and vision have for films. Peter Jackson was dying to create Lord of the Rings so his iteration put to film is one of the best novel adaptations and cinematic masterpieces in recent times. The Hobbit trilogy that he was forced to direct after being burned out is garbage.
And if you call that one page a plan, lol. All they are saying is that female power is hot right now, let’s use that as a central theme with Leia as a Jedi/mentor character. Good concept but the question is why does Leia need to come back into the fold as a mentor? Why is Luke not the mentor? What is the pressing threat that the original OT cast can’t tackle and why can’t they tackle it. What makes the new cast capable for the mission that the more experienced cast cannot?
As yes, you are right. Kennedy did create the story group and JJ apparently went as far as to create scripts for the entire trilogy. It’s too bad this happened.
Did Rian Johnson Throw Away Abrams' Story For 'The Last Jedi?'
One of the "Star Wars" stars discusses just how much of a disconnect existed between the creative teams of 'The Force Awakens' and 'The Last Jedi.'
J. J. wrote ‘Episode VII,’ he also wrote drafts for ‘VIII’ & ‘IX.’ Then Rian arrived and re-wrote [‘The Last Jedi’] entirely.
It doesn’t matter how good of a plan/outline you set up if the plan is unilaterally thrown away. A discarded plan is the same as starting with no plan.
And if it were true that Kennedy was running to Filoni to confirm every script change, then it’s self-evident that Filoni should have been the one in charge of the trilogy, not Kennedy. He has the knowledge and the buck essentially stops with him then. These arnt people sitting around being able to leisurely discuss any change on a moments notice, these are busy people leading their own projects. If Kennedy was so uncertain of Star Wars lore, she shouldn’t be the head leading the ST.
This is pretty self-evident for any project. Would you feel comfortable building a car that is being project managed by a person who has no idea how cars worked and kept going to the chief engineer of another project to see if the changes are ok? Why not just put that chief engineer as the lead of the project then.
Yes Lucas put her in charge but he also probably thought she was going to be loyal to him and his vision (hence the shock when his sequel treatments were scrapped) and that she knew more about Star Wars than she actually does.
You should go through The Secret History of Star Wars. George's "plan" was more like some vague, nebulous ever changing dream. Until the success of the first movie.
Your article very purposely leaves out the start of Daisy Ridley's quote. “Here’s what I think I know." And I'm pretty sure JJ has spoken about before. He's was never intended to write or direct 8 or 9. But that he and Lawrence Kasden wrote out some ideas of stuff of where the story might go, as an aid in writing episode 7.
Yes that's a plan. And it's not like they've given us the entirety of the whole meeting.....
Kathleen runs everything past Dave because of his knowledge. But also because Dave was working on Rebels. And they were wanting to add connections between the show and the films. (At one point the main planet for Rebels was going to be the planet they would introduce Rey on). Really when you hear Kathleen Kennedy talking about how they develop this stuff. You realize that it's just all the higher ups in Lucasfilm sitting and talking about what they want to see in Star Wars. John Knoll always wanted to see an ANH prequel based on the title crawl. We got Rogue One. Dave wanted to direct live action, so Kathleen would have him go and hang out on the sets of TFA and TLJ learning. Now he's doing The Mandalorian.
Joek3rr
Master Member
So why point out when filming started? What does that prove exactly?
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Yeah, the reason why Trevorrow was fired was for creative differences and adhering to his vision of how IX should go and apparently KK doesn’t that that s*** (articles words not mine).
This can mean 1 of 2 options imo:
1) Star Wars ST had a plan or at least elemental beats and Trevorrow’s script didn’t meet them.
or
2) Disney was in damage control and wanted to mitigate risk as much as possible.
It’s no lie that TLJ was incredibly divisive and even the media are admitting to it now. Disney definitely knew and so wanted to still get as many butts into seats. The Trevorrow script, if the leaks are correct, is incredibly challenging in many ways. The bad guys win and essentially requires Leia to deus ex machina in to save Rey and the resistance. There are some more major losses (R2 nearly dies), Rey is beaten to a pulp and blinded and never beats Kylo, etc.
This could be fake but it is another risk by a guy who is untested (his only major film until then was Jurassic World). Why not go with the safe option (JJ Abrams) who delivered TFA which was universally praised (in comparison to TLJ) to end the trilogy.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
You really like painting Lucas as a guy who went in completely blind and just struck gold. Yes, Lucas didn’t pen the other trilogies until after writing ANH. Why you don’t mention was that ANH (or just Star Wars at the time) was such a huge risk that Lucas and many of the people around him thought it would flop to the fact it was a new idea and Sci-Fi didn’t do well (De Palma hated it and made his opinion known but he also hated Taxi Driver so he might just have bad taste). Lucas’ only staunch supporter was Spielberg and even he underestimated its success.
Nevermind that this was also an era where sequels were uncommon.
But Lucas had already though of ideas for 9 films, cut down from 12 back in 1981. Obviously he isn’t planning to give spoilers but he already had a vision for the prequel trilogy and for it to focus Obi Wan and Anakin.
And regarding Daisy’s comment, she isn’t stupid. She knows what she is saying can be taken in an inflammatory light so her saying “from what I know” which is obvious because why would she talk about things she knows nothing about, RJ took nothing from JJ’s proposed treatments.
This has been a constant sentiment expressed by the actors as we have seen already.
-Mark Hamil, who has experience working on both the OT and ST as of the major characters, stated the process was different because Lucas always had a vision at least while the ST is a “relay race”
-Daisy has expressed the same sentiment, both with the previous quote of RJ not taking anything and the fact that her character origin was still fluid even while filming the final movie
Finally, to add insult to injury, JJ himself essentially confirms that RJ veered from the plan, if there was one made.
J.J. Abrams Admits He Laughed at Rian Johnson’s Script for The Last Jedi | Geek Outpost
Rian Johnson can't seem to avoid criticisms for his choices in the Last Jedi. Now, Abrams admits he couldn't help but laugh when reading the script.
geekoutpost.com
When I read his first draft, it made me laugh, because I saw that was his take and his voice. I got to watch cuts of the movie as he was working on it, as an audience member. And I appreciated the choices he made as a filmmaker that would probably be very different from the choices that I would have made...
“I a real sense with [Force Awakens co-screenwriter] Larry Kasdan about where things would go, potentially. And I think that, when I read Rian’s script, what I felt was that with everything that happens in that movie, and quite a lot does, nothing sort of obviated a sense of inevitability where I thought the story could go.”
So it sounds like JJ did have a plan and details of how the ST would go and Rian completely went another way given that “nothing” went the way it was planned. I really can’t think of what other evidence left there is that would further prove that the ST trilogy operated without a plan. Even if a plan was formed, if the story veers completely off course without sticking to the plan at all in the second of three movies, that’s pretty much the same as operating without a plan for the TRILOGY.
Edit: lol and Rian himself stated the ST had no plan.
Rian Johnson says there was no set plan for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy, defends Last Jedi humour
While Star Wars: The Last Jedi received an overwhelmingly positive reaction from critics, fans have been a little more mixed on the second chapter of Disney's Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. One of the big complaints aimed towards the film is that it deviates from the seeds planted in Star Wars: The...
www.flickeringmyth.com
I really don’t know which it is for the ST. They either had a plan that was discarded by the second movie or they never had a plan to begin with. Either way, the result is the same.
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Joek3rr
Master Member
Wow your so very biased. But that's okay I'm very obviously biased myself lol
But can you see how you have a bit of double standard? You mentioned how the OT works together and you can trace points through the films. Which is true, I agree with that it does work together, for the most part. The Luke and Leia is and will always feels like a square peg being shoved in a round hole, but I digress.
But you only take the movies at face value, which isn't bad. You ignore that behind the scenes the story changed, massively. However when it comes to the ST, you immediately bring the behind the scenes changes that happened.
Who care if Rey's parents changed? Taking the movies at face value, we don't have any confirmation of that fact. Only if you look at the behind the scenes. (Though I still suspect that Rey's Palpatine ancestry was what they wanted from the start)
Who cares if the Dyad was created for episode 9? New aspects to the Force are added all the time. Force ghosts, Force lightning, Force speed, midi-chlorians. It's a building of Ben and Rey's connection that clearly exists beyond Snoke.
Yes Ben coming back had to be answered. He's the last Skywalker. Will he die in darkness, or come back to the light? That very important question to the ST.
And Vader's mask, is a big set up in TFA that needed a pay off. When I left the theater that was biggest question. Who or what was communicating with Kylo?
Joek3rr
Master Member
All I know is Michael Arndt turned in a 50ish page treatment in October 2012. "Pretty extensive and detailed treatment for what would be the next three movies; the trilogy." - Bob IgerYou really like painting Lucas as a guy who went in completely blind and just struck gold. Yes, Lucas didn’t pen the other trilogies until after writing ANH. Why you don’t mention was that ANH (or just Star Wars at the time) was such a huge risk that Lucas and many of the people around him thought it would flop to the fact it was a new idea and Sci-Fi didn’t do well (De Palma hated it and made his opinion known but he also hated Taxi Driver so he might just have bad taste). Lucas’ only staunch supporter was Spielberg and even he underestimated its success.
Nevermind that this was also an era where sequels were uncommon.
But Lucas had already though of ideas for 9 films, cut down from 12 back in 1981. Obviously he isn’t planning to give spoilers but he already had a vision for the prequel trilogy and for it to focus Obi Wan and Anakin.
And regarding Daisy’s comment, she isn’t stupid. She knows what she is saying can be taken in an inflammatory light so her saying “from what I know” which is obvious because why would she talk about things she knows nothing about, RJ took nothing from JJ’s proposed treatments.
This has been a constant sentiment expressed by the actors as we have seen already.
-Mark Hamil, who has experience working on both the OT and ST as of the major characters, stated the process was different because Lucas always had a vision at least while the ST is a “relay race”
-Daisy has expressed the same sentiment, both with the previous quote of RJ not taking anything and the fact that her character origin was still fluid even while filming the final movie
Finally, to add insult to injury, JJ himself essentially confirms that RJ veered from the plan, if there was one made.
J.J. Abrams Admits He Laughed at Rian Johnson’s Script for The Last Jedi | Geek Outpost
Rian Johnson can't seem to avoid criticisms for his choices in the Last Jedi. Now, Abrams admits he couldn't help but laugh when reading the script.
When I read his first draft, it made me laugh, because I saw that was his take and his voice. I got to watch cuts of the movie as he was working on it, as an audience member. And I appreciated the choices he made as a filmmaker that would probably be very different from the choices that I would have made...
“I a real sense with [Force Awakens co-screenwriter] Larry Kasdan about where things would go, potentially. And I think that, when I read Rian’s script, what I felt was that with everything that happens in that movie, and quite a lot does, nothing sort of obviated a sense of inevitability where I thought the story could go.”
So it sounds like JJ did have a plan and details of how the ST would go and Rian completely went another way given that “nothing” went the way it was planned. I really can’t think of what other evidence left there is that would further prove that the ST trilogy operated without a plan. Even if a plan was formed, if the story veers completely off course without sticking to the plan at all in the second of three movies, that’s pretty much the same as operating without a plan for the TRILOGY.
Edit: lol and Rian himself stated the ST had no plan.
Rian Johnson says there was no set plan for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy, defends Last Jedi humour
While Star Wars: The Last Jedi received an overwhelmingly positive reaction from critics, fans have been a little more mixed on the second chapter of Disney's Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. One of the big complaints aimed towards the film is that it deviates from the seeds planted in Star Wars: The...
I really don’t know which it is for the ST. They either had a plan that was discarded by the second movie or they never had a plan to begin with. Either way, the result is the same.
Adam Driver said. "With Star Wars, I had one piece of information of where it was all going, and that's where it has been in my head for a long time, and things were building towards that. It feels very theatrical, if anything."
I'd guess that Lucasfilm defined how they wanted the story to begin and how they wanted it to end. But journey from point A to point B they left open for the individual filmmakers to do what they wanted. Again not again not to dissimilar to Marvel.
-On allowing directors and writers to work within Marvel's shared universe concept, Joe Russo said that Feige has "big pieces that he knows he wants to build towards, but the way that you get there is open to interpretation and improv a little bit".-
-The most simple way I could put it is Marvel doesn't come to the filmmakers and say, "Here's what the next movie is." They come to the filmmakers and say, "What is the next movie?" That's very much the process.
—Director Anthony Russo in April 2016-
Hang on, now the argument is that LFL had a plan that was, "again not to (sic) dissimilar to Marvel".
I thought we weren't supposed to use Marvel as an example of having a plan, because the mistakes in continuity they made, made it obvious that they didn't plan at all....
This has got to be an elaborate wind up.
I thought we weren't supposed to use Marvel as an example of having a plan, because the mistakes in continuity they made, made it obvious that they didn't plan at all....
This has got to be an elaborate wind up.
Joek3rr
Master Member
The problem I find is that many act like Marvel planned out every nitty gritty detail. Which isn't the case. I'm lacking some context in my comments. It's irks when people are all 'Star Wars should have been done like Marvel.' I'm just pointing out that Marvel isn't a good example of something with a grand detailed plan.
I'm not saying Marvel doesn't have a plan. But it's not what people seem to think what it is.
I sound like crazy person...
lol
And yet again I feel compelled to point out that nobody here stated that MCU had a "grand detailed plan", in fact we have been at pains to actually admit that they didn't, but point out that that they still had a clear over arching plan that the individual directors where beholden to, but with a large degree of creative freedom of how they got the characters to where they needed to be.The problem I find is that many act like Marvel planned out every nitty gritty detail. Which isn't the case. I'm lacking some context in my comments. It's irks when people are all 'Star Wars should have been done like Marvel.' I'm just pointing out that Marvel isn't a good example of something with a grand detailed plan.
I'm not saying Marvel doesn't have a plan. But it's not what people seem to think what it is.
I sound like crazy person...
To state the opposite is again disingenous.
Now I am going to take my head for a wobble and punch out of this roundabout.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
So you are basing the fact that because a 50-page treatment was created back in 2012, the ST always had a plan that they stuck too and the reason why the ST feels very disjointed is either bad writing or fans “just don’t understand?”
Honestly, based on all the evidence brought up, there are only 2 real possible scenarios through which the ST took place.
1) Kennedy worked with a story board and hashed out a decent outline of the ST. When RJ took over for TLJ, he did his own thing regardless of the plan and JJ was brought back in to re-right the ship, resulting in the ST feeling disjointed and TLJ sticking out like a sore thumb.
2) there was no plan and each director did their own thing. Kennedy had a vague vision of promoting female power which is why Rey and Leia needed to take center stage but directors could take the story wherever.
Given the fact that a creative committee was created and there is evidence of both the 2012 script and JJ penning ideas of episodes 8 and 9, in inclined to go with option 1. It’s also why I think TLJ and RJ was essentially responsible for tanking the ST as well as Kennedy’s incompetence by not reigning him in and letting the committee’s work in planning essentially go to waste.
This isn’t about the artistic merit of TLJ. I do think there were some interesting ideas and concepts brought up, namely Luke’s new interpretation of the force and how the Jedi should interact with it although I also found a lot of problems that have already been discussed. From a story point perspective, TLJ sucks because it ruined the narrative that was being built up and was essentially an F you to fans of TFA.
TFA left several key questions for the series to explore:
- what was Luke doing on the island?
- who is Rey and why is she so powerful?
- why did the saber call out to Rey?
- who is snoke? (Would also answer how the first order came to be, how he tricked Ben, etc)
TLJ shat all over these questions and essentially ended the trilogy with TLJ. Sure there were some loose threads left (how will the resistance recover? How will Kylo be defeated?) but these are forgone conclusions. The rag tag team of rebels defeated a much stronger empire, the new resistance can do that (and it will be remade). Kylo is not a threat to Rey because he has already lost twice in straight up duels with her and she is going to be even stronger after reading the ancient texts and training (like Luke between ESB and RotJ). Disney also doesn’t have the guts to let Rey lose at the end so the movie was written.
As a matter of fact, episode 9 was so clear that Palpatine’s return was freaking announced to revive interest. Nevermind that there was no foreshadowing beforehand so there were more questions of how is Palpatine back (maybe a flashback) as opposed to fans going yeah I knew it.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Eh, they both have their inconsistencies. Not to diss on Marvel, I really do like them. But nothing lasts. With the exception of Loki and Thanos, all the villains are dealt with in the same they are introduced. And when big universe changing things occur, like the Sokovia Accords(or the Snap). The next film returns everything to the status quo.
That's just my feelings.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Regarding Marvel, the interconnected nature of the film arguably works because the overall narrative is not really dependent on all character films but the Avengers.
If we look at just the Avengers films, the 3/4 films tell a natural story that play off one another.
Avengers - heroes meet thanks to Loki’s machinations, create Avengers team fight off invading space force.
Age of Ultron - in response to the space threat, Ironman and Hulk build Ultron as a shield against future space threats. Ultron goes awol and the team need to put him down.
Infinity - Thanos works on completing the stones. Avengers try to stop him but with no defense (cause Ultron) and Thanos’ overwhelming power, they fail.
Endgame - reverse impact of Thanos using time travel but Thanos utilizes that technology to come to them. Big final battle between heroes and Thanos army to kill Thanos and save the day at the expense of the Avengers themselves (team essentially decimated)
You could argue that the Avengers movies themselves create an insular narrative on their own and the individual movies (Iron man, Captain America) are just there to fill in the space between those movies as well as really delve into character motivations and analysis.
I also do think that because Endgame essentially concluded the Avengers narrative and there is probably a high level of disinterest in super hero movies (since we basically had a decade of hero Marvel movies), the MCU could be in trouble unless they really hit a home run and interest is revived with the new cast. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a big fall in interest post-endgame because we did go through 58 Marvel movies and the series really wrapped itself well with Endgame.
A big problem though is that there arnt any alternatives to Marvel right now. Sci-Fi could make a comeback with Dune though sparking a sci-fi craze.
If we look at just the Avengers films, the 3/4 films tell a natural story that play off one another.
Avengers - heroes meet thanks to Loki’s machinations, create Avengers team fight off invading space force.
Age of Ultron - in response to the space threat, Ironman and Hulk build Ultron as a shield against future space threats. Ultron goes awol and the team need to put him down.
Infinity - Thanos works on completing the stones. Avengers try to stop him but with no defense (cause Ultron) and Thanos’ overwhelming power, they fail.
Endgame - reverse impact of Thanos using time travel but Thanos utilizes that technology to come to them. Big final battle between heroes and Thanos army to kill Thanos and save the day at the expense of the Avengers themselves (team essentially decimated)
You could argue that the Avengers movies themselves create an insular narrative on their own and the individual movies (Iron man, Captain America) are just there to fill in the space between those movies as well as really delve into character motivations and analysis.
I also do think that because Endgame essentially concluded the Avengers narrative and there is probably a high level of disinterest in super hero movies (since we basically had a decade of hero Marvel movies), the MCU could be in trouble unless they really hit a home run and interest is revived with the new cast. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a big fall in interest post-endgame because we did go through 58 Marvel movies and the series really wrapped itself well with Endgame.
A big problem though is that there arnt any alternatives to Marvel right now. Sci-Fi could make a comeback with Dune though sparking a sci-fi craze.
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Joek3rr
Master Member
It always seems to come down to how people feel about TLJ. I don't feel that TLJ really threw anything out. It gave answers, just not the answers that people wanted.
Or at least for me provided satisfying answers
-TLJ answered why Luke was on the island, but people didn't like it.
-the Force chose her, but again it doesn't seem like many cared for that
-again because she was chosen by the Force, to balance Ben. Yin to his Yang.
-Snoke was a nobody. A distraction. Snoke is the Wizard, Palpatine the man behind the curtain.
This last one is most interesting, because if JJ was really meant to write the ship, why not change Snoke? Why not give him an important back story in episode 9? He could have had TLJ Snoke be a clone and real Snoke could have still been out there. But instead it's JJ that hammers home that Snoke was nothing.
Joek3rr
Master Member
I for one feel really uninterested in Marvel now. I was excited for the second Doctor Strange, but then Scott Derrickson left, and now I don't care. The only reason I want to see Black Widow is David Harbour.
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