Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Joek3rr]

Haha! Mark Hamill is voicing the Emperor!

 

[HeartBlade]

But it's not my way of thinking. I'm trying to only present what is told to us.

But I was incorrect in believing that all Force abilities are innate. Some abilities are innate to certain individuals. But some are taught.

Here's a few excerpts from this The Force
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Except Luke really isn't getting stronger, per se. More that he's removing his mental blocks, it's his pessimism and unbelief which hinder him. Something that a toddler for instance wouldn't have.

Dude seriously are you trolling me? The sources you cite specifically state that training is needed to use force powers beyond the very basic applications.

First picture: tapping into the force gives seemingly supernatural abilities which some may not be aware they’re using.

So it seems for some talented individuals like Anakin or random Rodian in a clone wars episode, some very basic abilities like telekinesis or fast reflexes can be innate. Given that Jedi seem to hurt for force sensitive infants pretty randomly, this makes sense. It’s not like there is a universal blood donor list that provides the temple with a list of individuals with high midiclorian counts they can go to collect. The infants likely need some display for the Jedi to pick them up and recruit them as Jedi.

but then in picture 3, “while some had innate force abilities, most learned to use the force through instruction as part of an established tradition.” In the real world, we call this lessons and training. So yes, some exceptional people can use some force abilities natively but MOST need training and instruction to use the force.

Hell, even the ST mentions training.

Kylo: you need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the force.

Wow so even the ST agrees that most people need training to learn to use the force and Rey doesn’t because she is a Mary Sue...I mean an exceptional being and another part of the dyad and learned the force by pure instinct. Not like that loser Kylo Ren, the noob who needed training from both Luke and Snoke and still lost to Rey.

On a completely separate note, wow do the extended material just make Rey a worse character. Kylo is actually interesting and had a good innate rivalry with 3 of Luke’s students. It also shows what a powerhouse he is in that he can defeat 3 trained Jedi by himself. And yet, he can’t beat Rey, a completely untrained rando, even once. The added material essentially makes Rey look even more overpowered and all the other Jedi and Sith in the series look bad as a result.

 

[Joek3rr]

Dude seriously are you trolling me? The sources you cite specifically state that training is needed to use force powers beyond the very basic applications.

First picture: tapping into the force gives seemingly supernatural abilities which some may not be aware they’re using.

So it seems for some talented individuals like Anakin or random Rodian in a clone wars episode, some very basic abilities like telekinesis or fast reflexes can be innate. Given that Jedi seem to hurt for force sensitive infants pretty randomly, this makes sense. It’s not like there is a universal blood donor list that provides the temple with a list of individuals with high midiclorian counts they can go to collect. The infants likely need some display for the Jedi to pick them up and recruit them as Jedi.

but then in picture 3, “while some had innate force abilities, most learned to use the force through instruction as part of an established tradition.” In the real world, we call this lessons and training. So yes, some exceptional people can use some force abilities natively but MOST need training and instruction to use the force.

Hell, even the ST mentions training.

Kylo: you need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the force.

Wow so even the ST agrees that most people need training to learn to use the force and Rey doesn’t because she is a Mary Sue...I mean an exceptional being and another part of the dyad and learned the force by pure instinct. Not like that loser Kylo Ren, the noob who needed training from both Luke and Snoke and still lost to Rey.

On a completely separate note, wow do the extended material just make Rey a worse character. Kylo is actually interesting and had a good innate rivalry with 3 of Luke’s students. It also shows what a powerhouse he is in that he can defeat 3 trained Jedi by himself. And yet, he can’t beat Rey, a completely untrained rando, even once. The added material essentially makes Rey look even more overpowered and all the other Jedi and Sith in the series look bad as a result.

I never said there wasn't training...... I said it's not necessarily a prerequisite to using the Force. Which is very clear.

 

[Laspector]

Oh man......you guys need to get a room....

 

[cboath]

Ugh I think I give up. I’m really just talking with a dude who is so fixed in his way of thinking that anything that could possibly be to the contrary must be wrong.

I don’t know about that one screenshot. There is so much Star Wars material floating around that some stuff will naturally conflict with each other. Maybe some people are more attuned to the force but cannot draw out as much while others can but have trouble controlling the tide.

I said a Yoda-like person, not Yoda himself. He definitely isn’t the first Jedi grand master but there is no species name for the Yodas, hence a Yoda not the yoda.

If we are going with legends material as canon, then we know how the Jedi train, at least in PT. The Jedi apprentice series by Jude Watson basically goes into depth what the career path is like for a Jedi.

Infant: taken by Jedi, doesn’t know family.
1-13: trained in the ways of the force and lightsaber combat. Lightsaber combat is sparring against training droids and each other. They also do things like climb walls, meditation, learning about history of stuff, etc. they then prove themselves to prospective knights to become a padawan through the initiate test. I think the rule was if a prospective was not chosen as a padawan by 13, they can no longer be a Jedi knight and become pilots, farmers, etc. Obi Wan almost met this fate.

Padawan to knight: the padawan learns under the knight and further refined their saber skills and force usage. They then take the trials to become a knight.

Knight tends to be endgame. To become a master, you needed to train several apprentices to knighthood or achieve some big feats so Masters were very rare. And you needed to be a highly accomplished master to be elected to sit on the council (Anakin being an exception).

And all that is training. Sure as a force user it’s not like you are doing 5 reps of lifting 5 small stones before moving up to boulders, then x-wings but there is still a gradual progression in learning to harness the force to a greater extent that comes through instruction.

In ESB, Luke was practicing using the force while in a one arm handstand, carefully balancing small rocks on top of each other. It is later that Yoda tells him to lift the x-wing and Luke says he can’t, because he doesn’t think it is possible so Yoda shows him it can be. This is the gradual progression Luke needed to go through to get stronger in using the force, not just immediately lift Star destroyers. Sure the force isn’t some muscle you need to build up but it’s also not something you can just achieve my meditating, at least in the beginning.

And it seems we agree that Anakin was exception, that not all force sensitives are created equal with some possessing more force affinity than others and can thus call on the force more easily or even call on more of the force than others. Again, if we go by legends, Palpatine can create a force storm which he learned from an ancient Sith book. But it’s not like all Sith, let alone all force sensitives, can summon force storms. It requires both the capability to call a lot of the force as well intricate capability in the force which is why Palpatine is one of the rare few who could summon one.

If I remember my clone wars, that shot is from the story line where there was a list of force sensitive children they were trying to keep the bad guys from getting. In order to drive home the point, they showed a kid or two doing some force related things. That was a simple method of story telling/getting the point across so you see infants (more or less) demonstrating some ability. It's said somewhere they're tested at birth and those with high midi counts are taken for training. Doesn't quite have the same dramatic effect to show a toddler getting a blood test, you know?

the vast difference is that the toddler's ability was shown to get the point across, not to give him power or show he knew what he was doing. Similarly, broom boy is the same. It was purely to show there were others out there with the ability. I mean, you have to have some allowance...but when taking the allowance you also have to explain the why, like being a prodigy or something. There ARE people in this world who've never had a music lesson but after watching/hearing someone play something on the piano, can duplicate it and then make their own music. Yes, it's exceptionally rare, but it happens.

Those people also aren't the central focus of a story where their ability is the reason the galaxy lives or dies. So, you may have storytelling instances where you show people do things to get the point across they can. However, there is only one instance of someone using those powers at almost master level with no training whatsoever. That's when the BS meter goes off. That Rodian and broom boy are totally irrelevant characters and never actually do squat so it's not really the same thing as having your hero burst on the scene - clueless of their power - and then virtually master it inside of day 1.

 

[Joek3rr]

If I remember my clone wars, that shot is from the story line where there was a list of force sensitive children they were trying to keep the bad guys from getting. In order to drive home the point, they showed a kid or two doing some force related things. That was a simple method of story telling/getting the point across so you see infants (more or less) demonstrating some ability. It's said somewhere they're tested at birth and those with high midi counts are taken for training. Doesn't quite have the same dramatic effect to show a toddler getting a blood test, you know?

the vast difference is that the toddler's ability was shown to get the point across, not to give him power or show he knew what he was doing. Similarly, broom boy is the same. It was purely to show there were others out there with the ability. I mean, you have to have some allowance...but when taking the allowance you also have to explain the why, like being a prodigy or something. There ARE people in this world who've never had a music lesson but after watching/hearing someone play something on the piano, can duplicate it and then make their own music. Yes, it's exceptionally rare, but it happens.

Those people also aren't the central focus of a story where their ability is the reason the galaxy lives or dies. So, you may have storytelling instances where you show people do things to get the point across they can. However, there is only one instance of someone using those powers at almost master level with no training whatsoever. That's when the BS meter goes off. That Rodian and broom boy are totally irrelevant characters and never actually do squat so it's not really the same thing as having your hero burst on the scene - clueless of their power - and then virtually master it inside of day 1.

If you call telekinesis and mind tricking a stormtrooper mastering their power......

 

[cboath]

But it's not my way of thinking. I'm trying to only present what is told to us.

But I was incorrect in believing that all Force abilities are innate. Some abilities are innate to certain individuals. But some are taught.

Here's a few excerpts from this The Force
View attachment 1365253
View attachment 1365254View attachment 1365255


Except Luke really isn't getting stronger, per se. More that he's removing his mental blocks, it's his pessimism and unbelief which hinder him. Something that a toddler for instance wouldn't have.

Except that's not what made him completely oblivious to the fact he had the abilities in the first place. Using the same logic, he should have then figured these things out when he himself was a toodler.

Just like anakin, he should have had reflexes faster than could be easily explained and other above average abilities. Everyone we're told about luke in ANH is he was the definition of average his whole life.

 

[cboath]

If you call telekinesis and mind tricking a stormtrooper mastering their power......

I do when she's able to blast through Kylo's brain on virtually her first attempt. I could buy being able to shut him out, but not being able to just go right in.

Which is sorta bs in the first place as that was one of those new powers given in the ST.

 

[Joek3rr]

I do when she's able to blast through Kylo's brain on virtually her first attempt. I could buy being able to shut him out, but not being able to just go right in.

Which is sorta bs in the first place as that was one of those new powers given in the ST.

It's kinda the whole point though. After she does that Kylo runs to Snoke to tell him that she's powerful with the Force, untrained, yet powerful.

 

[Joek3rr]

Except that's not what made him completely oblivious to the fact he had the abilities in the first place. Using the same logic, he should have then figured these things out when he himself was a toodler.

Just like anakin, he should have had reflexes faster than could be easily explained and other above average abilities. Everyone we're told about luke in ANH is he was the definition of average his whole life.

But everyone's different. For some reason Luke never showed signs of being Force sensitive. Maybe his aunt and uncle spanked him when he used telekinesis?

With that said I feel like George did a little retconn with that though. Obi-Wan mentions that Luke has become a good pilot, and that his father was a good pilot when they first met. Then in TPM we learn it's because Anakin is unknowingly using the Force. So is it possible that George was retconning the fact that Luke was good pilot because he too, like his father was unknowingly using the Force??

 

[Psab keel]

Innate ability is one thing. Dedicated years of learning to attain mastery of said ability is something else.

 

[HeartBlade]

Yeah this is just getting a little too ridiculous.

Sure, training isn’t necessary to use the force just like there are some people who are innately talented in music/ sports/ academics and don’t need instruction. These characters in fiction tend to be the genius/ace and part of their story arc usually involves getting their stuff kicked in by an average Joe that worked their butt off. The ace being the main character and never getting their comeuppance has occurred in fiction but it tends to be the power fantasy (Sword Art Online, Overlord, etc.) it can work if the main conflict is internal with the character being completly incompetent in some other areas that they are challenged by (One Punch Man) but done poorly, results in a very childish and boring story. You can enjoy the power trip story but it’s definitely poor writing and doesn’t fit the themes of Star Wars imo.

I also realized why I was so against Rey and honestly even the child having the power to heal and it’s fundamentally because it undermines the entire essence of Star Wars.

One of the great things about Star Wars imo is how “realistic” it is. Yes, the force and blasters and spaceships are unrealistic but there is a grounded world with clear rules in Star Wars. The Force isn’t some magic mumbo jumbo that allows you to do anything but more an augment. It makes you powerful but not invincible.

Death and accepting it is also one of the principle contentions between Jedi and Sith. Jedi accept death as a natural part of life and inevitable. That’s why their code states there is no death, there is the force and they return to it once their time has come. Qui Gon really expressed this concept strongly in episode 1 when he always downplayed the Jedi. Even though Anakin stated no one could kill a Jedi, Qui Gon basically signifies that is not the case and emphasizes his limits. “I can protect you. I can’t fight a war for you”

Sith, on the other hand, fear death and are basically trying to do whatever they can to stave it off which often leads to their downfall. Bain tried to live through his apprentice through essence transfer, as did Palpatine. Plaguis experimented to try to find a way to cheat death. The Sith are obsessed with death since it is the inevitable end to their power and thus it is their tragic fate that their very attempts to escape death often result in it. Anakin is the best example of this. Despite having the moniker the man without fear, he is most plagued by fear of failure, pain, and loss which culminated with the fear of losing Padme that he sacrificed his ties with his friends, the Jedi, and even his own identity to find a way to save her.

So, giving a character the ability to be able to heal another and stave off death with no limitations or consequences as seen with the child and Rey completely undermines this important narrative. If Anakin could heal like Padme, he could always protect the ones he loved from pain and death and would truly be without fear. The point of that childish fantasy is to show that Anakin’s mindset was not ready to become a master, that one has to be able to accept loss and thus truly value life while it is still there because death is inevitable. This is a running theme with Anakin and really plays beautifully as it contrasts him with the wiser Kenobi in this regard.

the emergence of the child or Rey having the power to essentially heal anything through the force really breaks this theme apart. This power to this extent shouldn’t exist in the first place because that power completely goes against the jedi ideology. If it were to exist, it should be a Sith power that comes at the cost of the lives of millions of others and other drawbacks like rapid aging, emphasizing the selfishness of the Sith as well as their fear of death.

Then again, Rey is a Palpatine so her having the power does make sense? Honestly, if I look at the ST from the lens of it being a caustic parody of Star Wars, it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Psab keel]

As you hinted at even prodigies may be incredibly proficient by birth in one specific subject but it's often to the detriment of other areas of their lives like understanding social cues, or dealing with high levels of anxiety, or even to the extreme of psychosis. It's as if it takes so much brain power to be able to master something so powerfully that it robs other areas of the mind to even perform basic functions.

Now in fiction this can play itself out in several ways. It could manifest like it does in real life as I described above and the protagonist can either find ways to control or cope with it, resulting in various outcomes depending on the type of story. Or it can play out as a Flat Arc where the protagonist doesn't change throughout the story but the characters around the protagonist change and grow as a result of their involvement thus satisfying the audience's desire to learn and grow with the story.

Usually those types of stories that show growth often are the most emotionally compelling because the audience is growing with the characters and feels a sense of familiarity with them because they can relate to the emotional struggles they face, even if the circumstances are fantastical. This is why the heroes journey is so effective because it transcends topical differences like gender, race, social status, sexual orientation or anything else to express the human experience which anyone can relate to no matter who you are or where you come from and why it can be applied to just about every well structured piece of fiction no matter who is the protagonist.

 

[Ron]

Star Wars is so much better when it's simple.

 

[Psab keel]

I think there is a great misconception that plot and characters always have to be convoluted to be engaging and I think that's erroneous. Sure it can be interesting but some of the most effective stories are those that have the simplest plots. It doesn't mean it's unsophisticated or that the audience is dumb, it just means it may have wider appeal.

 

[HeartBlade]

I think there is a great misconception that plot and characters always have to be convoluted to be engaging and I think that's erroneous. Sure it can be interesting but some of the most effective stories are those that have the simplest plots. It doesn't mean it's unsophisticated or that the audience is dumb, it just means it may have wider appeal.

Completely agree and with your previous point as well. The innately born genius character does pop up a lot in fiction but if he/she is without flaw, they are usually the antagonist to the main character, either being the dragon or the rival.

The genius born with innate abilities makes the story far more exciting because it innately makes the main character an underdog which you just love to root for. People also relate more to a hard working normal dude vs an innate genius who is able to do everything and every likes seeing the genius taking down a peg. Rey in many regards is the perfect antagonist/villain.

Yeah, especially with movies, simple is best. In the end, you only have 90 to 100 minutes to create a world, present the situation, build up the conflict and resolve with the climax and resolution. Most of the best movies ever made are super simple.

Indiana Jones - Nazis looking for god relic. Indy races to get to it first.

Predator/Alien - commandos stranded in jungle/spaceship with superior alien hunter. Humans fight to survive/kill alien.

Terminator - killer robot comes back in time to kill lady. Man comes to protect her and kill terminator.

Matrix - guy told he is the chosen one and goes on trip of self-actualization

Die Hard - terrorists take over mall. Rogue cop goes in to kill them and save his family.

Movies arguably then tend to suck when they get too complicated which is what sequels always fall into. They need to raise the stakes and so add more factors and complications to make the situation “bigger” and it often fails as a result. If you want more in-depth storytelling and in-depth character development, serialized tv is a safer bet. Game of Thrones or Walking Dead would never work as a movie.

 

[ghostryder]

‘The Mandalorian’ Eyes Production Start As Spinoff, Casting & Boba Fett Buzz Heats Up

Per usual, Lucasfilm and Disney+ are keeping mum on details about the new season, including casting.

deadline.com

 

[cboath]

When i brought up prodigies it was to acknowledge that they exist but are rare. And when they're featured in a show/movie/book/whatever, pains are taken to point that out to the audience.

In the ST, no one bats at eye at Rey being able to do anything. You can say no one's seen a jedi in 30 years, great. However, Han, Luke, Leia, Chewy and the Droids have - in fact they spent the bulk of their lives with one. But one ever bats an eye that she can do almost anything right off the bat.

So, the point was that prodigies are acknowledged. Rey isn't.

 

[Psab keel]

Yes they are rare indeed, even in fiction. I would be fine with Rey being proficient at everything if she exhibited some flaws, vulnerability or weakness but because she's perfect I have a hard time caring about her.

She's a wish fulfillment character and there's nothing inherently wrong with that but I just find her lack of an arc to be bland.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I was watching ANH the other day and when they are attacking the Death Star an Imperial officer says their turbolasers can't track the fighters. So from SW reference books we know the turbolasers were for capital ships. So at that point who had enough capital ships to threaten a Death Star? The Rebels certainly didn't until about ROTJ and they couldn't hurt it just fight the Imperial fleet.