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BTTUK

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Just because they didn't rigidly adhere to their plan doesn't mean they didn't have one. And why would they? Why write themselves into a corner? I mean it would irresponsible for them not to explore other ideas while developing the films. And what film franchise maps out a plan that the film makers must adhere to?
Marvel Cinematic Universe for example. Yes the multiple directors were not given the exact stories they had to follow, but were given instructions on what characters limits were, and what the overall objective was to reach with those characters.

I admire your loyalty to it, but even as a fan of the first two ST films myself, it is irrefutable that they had no real plan(s) for any of the characters, nor fixed end state that they were working towards.

If they did have one, then the complete mess of how the directors were handled etc, can only be explained to me as a monumental balls up of every department within LFL, which i'd find hard to believe considering the handfuls of success that LFL has produced.
 

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BTTUK

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Well, the Skywalker Lightsaber really is a dark and cursed object... it was used to slaughter an entire village of Tusken Raiders, cut the head off of Count Poodoo, slaughtered “younglings”, slaughtered the members of the Trade Federation, was wielded by Anakin in his duel with Kenobi, and was used by Luke Skywalker in his crushing defeat in The Empire Strikes Back.

I would run from that thing if it tried to fly into my grip.
Anakin used his padawan saber to kill the tusken raiders in AOTC
 

ALLEY

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Anakin used his padawan saber to kill the tusken raiders in AOTC
Doh! You’re right.

I still stand by the remainder of my original statement.

0CEC4FBB-8AE5-42D9-95DD-08F5C866EE85.jpeg


See...the archivists won’t even touch this cursed object with their bare hands.

;)
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Completely missing the point in both the source you state and the point I raised.

The book says the saber flies to Rey because she is the “skywalker” of the ST, essentially the protagonist. Hence, Skywalker is a metaphor. Nothing about her becoming the next Skywalker, reading too much into it because you want it to.

Im also not saying that the saber flying to Rey was not symbolic in TFA. It was incredibly symbolic although I would point out the fact that the saber literally calls out to Rey (hence why she is the one to find it in Max’s belongings) and gets visions as well as hear Obi Wan say these are your first steps is more indicative than the saber flying to Rey. Obviously the saber chose her In TFA. No one is debating that.

However, this falls completely on its face in TLJ when it is revealed that a) Rey is nobody, and b) the saber shows no will from that point on. Rey has to be somebody, whether a manifestation of the force like Anakin (the new one), a descendent, or chosen in some way or why does “the sword in the stone” choose her as the worthy wielder among all others? Nevermind that the saber just becomes a regular saber after TFA, being wielded by Ben as his main weapon in TRoS and just generally being a regular sword instead of Exalibur.
The book isn't talking about the saber going Rey. It's Pablo's comments on Rey's part in the story. And how for all intents and purposes she is a Skywalker. JJ and Terrio just decided to hit people over the head with it, leaving no questions about it.

I would say that the lightsaber going to Rey signifies her worthiness of taking on the Skywalker legacy. She is good, kind, selfless, despite how she grew up, and her ancestry. This is what makes her worthy. This still works whether or not she has some special lineage. But as it stands, Rey is still chosen by the Force. The Force called to her, it guided her to the lightsaber. It gave her the lightsaber.
 

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harrisonp

Sr Member
I’m on board with her being chosen by the Force, I just think the holiness JJ tries to put into the saber is too much. I’m still team Rey Nobody™️ and would have liked to see that carried all the way through.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Just because they didn't rigidly adhere to their plan doesn't mean they didn't have one. And why would they? Why write themselves into a corner? I mean it would irresponsible for them not to explore other ideas while developing the films. And what film franchise maps out a plan that the film makers must adhere to?
The most obvious one is Marvel. And if you try and deny there was an overarching story there, despite there being some evolution along the way, then you're being willfully ignorant.

Besides adhering to a plan doesn't automatically equate to writing yourself into a corner. At least if you're a decent writer you can find ways to work within the rules or structure you establish.

And no I don't consider Rey's lineage to be some minor change along the way given the importance bestowed on it by JJ in TFA. There were 3 different answers to that question so it smacks of either indecision or laziness on the writers part.
 

cboath

Master Member
Just because they didn't rigidly adhere to their plan doesn't mean they didn't have one. And why would they? Why write themselves into a corner? I mean it would irresponsible for them not to explore other ideas while developing the films. And what film franchise maps out a plan that the film makers must adhere to?
You're missing the point. Having a plan and ignoring it is not any better than not having one at all. You're still making it up as you go which is what the end product turned out to be. It's a distinction without a difference.

Regardless of your opinions, 8 was a departure from what came before - and by before i mean 7, which was not in 'the plan' i'd wager. The gamble failed (in their eyes) as they opted for the full 180 for TRoS, which also, i'd wager wasn't in 'the plan'.

It's why you make 'a plan' you stick to it to avoid that. 7 was fairly well received all around. Not completely, but fairly well. They gambled in their departure from the plan and even if they had a 'new plan' during 8 - they bailed on that which is why the end product suffers in exactly the same way as not having a plan as it does repeatedly abandoning the plan for a new one as you go.

A trilogy should be a coherent vision, not three visions duct taped together and presented as a whole. I can duct table an apple, an cell phone, and a hampster together, too. Doesn't make it a good idea. I mean, the hampster dies, the apple rots, and no one is touching the phone after that!

The point of a plan/vision is to iron out everything in advance so it's made clear the story you want to tell. There's not much of an argument that they didn't tell a clear story. There's no plan that says part 7 tosses out everything from 4-6, and 8 tosses everything from 7 and 9 tosses everything from 8. But that's exactly what happened.

ESB was a departure from ANH, but it didn't ignore anything or trash anything from ANH. Changes were made in ROTJ as well, but it didn't really invalidate what came before in the process. And, no, that wasn't all set out in stone in 1975 either. But it was told from singular person/group that kept the focus of what they were doing. Same flat out cannot be said for the ST.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Marvel Cinematic Universe for example. Yes the multiple directors were not given the exact stories they had to follow, but were given instructions on what characters limits were, and what the overall objective was to reach with those characters.

I admire your loyalty to it, but even as a fan of the first two ST films myself, it is irrefutable that they had no real plan(s) for any of the characters, nor fixed end state that they were working towards.

If they did have one, then the complete mess of how the directors were handled etc, can only be explained to me as a monumental balls up of every department within LFL, which i'd find hard to believe considering the handfuls of success that LFL has produced.

The most obvious one is Marvel. And if you try and deny there was an overarching story there, despite there being some evolution along the way, then you're being willfully ignorant.

Besides adhering to a plan doesn't automatically equate to writing yourself into a corner. At least if you're a decent writer you can find ways to work within the rules or structure you establish.

And no I don't consider Rey's lineage to be some minor change along the way given the importance bestowed on it by JJ in TFA. There were 3 different answers to that question so it smacks of either indecision or laziness on the writers part.

Please don't use MCU as an example. That's the film franchise that retconned the tesseract into having an Infinity Stone. Retconned Loki's scepter into having an Infinity Stone. Flat out showed us the Infinity Gauntlet complete with stones, but oh wait we want to make everything about Thanos and the Infinity Stones. So, retcon! That gauntlet is actually a fake.

And my favorite. This is the franchise that had Captain America fall in love with his girlfriend's niece. Which is kinda weird to begin with. But wait, Captain America actually time traveled and married his girlfriend........ and holy bantha poodoo! Captain America fell in love and kissed his own niece!

Plan it all out, they did not.
 

David3

Sr Member
Well, the Skywalker Lightsaber really is a dark and cursed object... it was used to slaughter an entire village of Tusken Raiders, cut the head off of Count Poodoo, slaughtered “younglings”, slaughtered the members of the Trade Federation, was wielded by Anakin in his duel with Kenobi, and was used by Luke Skywalker in his crushing defeat in The Empire Strikes Back.

I would run from that thing if it tried to fly into my grip.
Yes, and it 'called' to Rey.. as a Palpatine!
Don't be blindsided by the 'Skywalker'
(bumper stickers available if interested ;) )
 
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Joek3rr

Sr Member
You're missing the point. Having a plan and ignoring it is not any better than not having one at all. You're still making it up as you go which is what the end product turned out to be. It's a distinction without a difference.

Regardless of your opinions, 8 was a departure from what came before - and by before i mean 7, which was not in 'the plan' i'd wager. The gamble failed (in their eyes) as they opted for the full 180 for TRoS, which also, i'd wager wasn't in 'the plan'.

It's why you make 'a plan' you stick to it to avoid that. 7 was fairly well received all around. Not completely, but fairly well. They gambled in their departure from the plan and even if they had a 'new plan' during 8 - they bailed on that which is why the end product suffers in exactly the same way as not having a plan as it does repeatedly abandoning the plan for a new one as you go.

A trilogy should be a coherent vision, not three visions duct taped together and presented as a whole. I can duct table an apple, an cell phone, and a hampster together, too. Doesn't make it a good idea. I mean, the hampster dies, the apple rots, and no one is touching the phone after that!

The point of a plan/vision is to iron out everything in advance so it's made clear the story you want to tell. There's not much of an argument that they didn't tell a clear story. There's no plan that says part 7 tosses out everything from 4-6, and 8 tosses everything from 7 and 9 tosses everything from 8. But that's exactly what happened.

ESB was a departure from ANH, but it didn't ignore anything or trash anything from ANH. Changes were made in ROTJ as well, but it didn't really invalidate what came before in the process. And, no, that wasn't all set out in stone in 1975 either. But it was told from singular person/group that kept the focus of what they were doing. Same flat out cannot be said for the ST.
The reason for not adhering ridgly to plan is simple. If you are going to have a different writer(s) and director for each film. Then why plan it all out when one of them may come with a superior idea?

Yes TLJ was a departure from TFA. As was ESB from ANH, as you mentioned. But TLJ didn't throw out or trash anything that TFA established. Even TROS didn't hamper with TLJ as much as people say it did. Yes Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter is probably is retcon. But it doesn't change anything from TLJ. Rey said her parents were nobodies, because that's what she knew. She wouldn't have known that her grandfather was the failed clone son of Palpatine. And clearly him and his wife were laying low, hence them living as poor nobodies. Kylo says her parents were dead on Jakku. That's still the truth. He says they sold her for drinking money. Probably what they told Unkar Plutt, as a cover story. Kylo, is after all seeing part of the truth, skewed by the dark side.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Why stick to a plan? For the same reason you married your wife. Because you didn't want or need to wait until someone better came along.

I'm not saying their original plan was without flaw but at least it would have been consistent.

Not to mention if the MCU was just a case of winging it then what were those Phases about?

Plus I hate to break the illusion but even professional writers come up with multiple drafts before their stories even resemble something good.
 
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HeartBlade

Sr Member
Isn't that what I said?

don’t be disingenuous. I was being fair to you in that Daisy saying they tied with the idea of Obi Wan early which is likely in TFA.

you completely omit the fact that Daisy explicitly mentions that it was then sort of cemented that she was nobody, then changed again by JJ in episode 9 (the last entry) that Palps MIGHT be her grandpappy


The reason for not adhering ridgly to plan is simple. If you are going to have a different writer(s) and director for each film. Then why plan it all out when one of them may come with a superior idea?

Yes TLJ was a departure from TFA. As was ESB from ANH, as you mentioned. But TLJ didn't throw out or trash anything that TFA established. Even TROS didn't hamper with TLJ as much as people say it did. Yes Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter is probably is retcon. But it doesn't change anything from TLJ. Rey said her parents were nobodies, because that's what she knew. She wouldn't have known that her grandfather was the failed clone son of Palpatine. And clearly him and his wife were laying low, hence them living as poor nobodies. Kylo says her parents were dead on Jakku. That's still the truth. He says they sold her for drinking money. Probably what they told Unkar Plutt, as a cover story. Kylo, is after all seeing part of the truth, skewed by the dark side
This is one of the worst sins you can make when managing a project. When you are making a product, you outline a vision of a product to meet a certain need. Changing the final vision halfway or at the end of the development process is a guaranteed mess and something you don’t do unless the end product is unsalvageable without the change.

Let’s make a clear example. Let’s say you start out wanting to make an apple pie. You make the base (crust) but purposefully make the crust thin and sweet because you are making a dessert. You show the recepie to the next cook, say we are making a pie, and let the guy take over.

Next guy says screw that, I’m making a pizza. He adds tomato sauce, cheese, pepperoni, the works and the pizza is basically complete and needs to be cooked. This already sucks but some foodies could still be interested in a sweet pizza.

The original chef is called back and sees the mess. He says screw that, takes off the cheese, pepperoni, etc and puts back in creme, apples, etc and bakes the pie and presents it as an apple pie. Is the pie going to be good?

Some people may like the pie and more power to them. But the general masses won’t find it appealing because it didn’t adhere to any recepie (even though its fans say they always intended to add tomato sauce and remove the cheese later).
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
don’t be disingenuous. I was being fair to you in that Daisy saying they tied with the idea of Obi Wan early which is likely in TFA.

you completely omit the fact that Daisy explicitly mentions that it was then sort of cemented that she was nobody, then changed again by JJ in episode 9 (the last entry) that Palps MIGHT be her grandpappy



This is one of the worst sins you can make when managing a project. When you are making a product, you outline a vision of a product to meet a certain need. Changing the final vision halfway or at the end of the development process is a guaranteed mess and something you don’t do unless the end product is unsalvageable without the change.

Let’s make a clear example. Let’s say you start out wanting to make an apple pie. You make the base (crust) but purposefully make the crust thin and sweet because you are making a dessert. You show the recepie to the next cook, say we are making a pie, and let the guy take over.

Next guy says screw that, I’m making a pizza. He adds tomato sauce, cheese, pepperoni, the works and the pizza is basically complete and needs to be cooked. This already sucks but some foodies could still be interested in a sweet pizza.

The original chef is called back and sees the mess. He says screw that, takes off the cheese, pepperoni, etc and puts back in creme, apples, etc and bakes the pie and presents it as an apple pie. Is the pie going to be good?

Some people may like the pie and more power to them. But the general masses won’t find it appealing because it didn’t adhere to any recepie (even though its fans say they always intended to add tomato sauce and remove the cheese later).
Weird analogy. And anyways not want happened.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
Why stick to a plan? For the same reason you married your wife. Because you didn't want or need to wait until someone better came along.

I'm not saying their original plan was without flaw but at least it would have been consistent.

Not to mention if the MCU was just a case of winging it then what were those Phases about?

Plus I hate to break the illusion but even professional writers come up with multiple drafts before their stories even resemble something good.
The MCU phases are the extent of the planning. They plan on the film releases. But it's up to the writers and directors to collaborate with each other and build off each other's stories. Very much how Star Wars was done.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
Okay so the answer then is the story that the SW people came up with in their collaborative efforts was bad and executed poorly, because the MCU is very well liked even with its hiccups.

I realize this claim is subjective, but you continually treating the series like it’s beyond reproach is getting old. The detractors make fair points, they’re not being the dreaded internet trolls of apparent misogyny or racism. They’re critiquing it creatively and narratively. You don’t have to go to bat against every negative point.

That said, I have ZERO ill will toward you, and I think everything has stayed in relatively good faith even if things are snowballing again and again. We all like SW for different reasons and that’s okay.
 
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Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The MCU phases are the extent of the planning. They plan on the film releases. But it's up to the writers and directors to collaborate with each other and build off each other's stories. Very much how Star Wars was done.
I'm sure there is FAR more planning than just release dates with those Phases, but even taking that out of the equation, they have 70 years of existing content to draw on so it's not as though the stories for those movies were pulled out of thin air.

Fundamentally I don't think the people in charge at Lucasfilm really understand Star Wars as a property. They may own it but that doesn't equate to a real understanding of what made it endure all this time. It's more than just referencing the previous movies in the series to get fans attention with random callbacks, and it's more than referencing other films that inspired George Lucas. It's not just about the spectacle, though that's important too. It's about having a central theme that expresses the human experience through relatable characters, visual metaphors and mythic imagery and it's mostly hopeful.

Has anyone here actually watched all three Sequel films back to back?

I saw TFA twice in the theater. TLJ once and never again. I skipped TROS because of TLJ. I can't bring myself to rewatch the two I've seen either because they will just annoy me and from what I have seen of TROS online I just want to puke.

I'm glad you enjoy it but this trilogy is just not for me. I think ultimately it's just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that they had more money and resources at their disposal than George could have ever imagined and this was the best they could come up with? It just makes me sad for what might have been.
 
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HeartBlade

Sr Member
Weird analogy. And anyways not want happened.

Really?


“Remember, George had an overall arc. If he didn’t have all the details, he had sort of an overall feel for where the three were going. But this one’s more like a relay race. You run and hand the torch off to the next guy, he picks it up and goes. Rian didn’t write what happens in 9 – he was going to hand it off to, originally, Colin Trevorrow and now J.J.”

Meanwhile, let’s look at Marvel’s “lack“ of planning.


You know, between five and 10 in a very broad 35,000-foot way. The next three or four years, much more specifically than that. We do have the plan that we’ve been working on now for many years and will eventually be talking about


Directing a Marvel movie is, some have argued, more akin to directing a television show, where the focus is on serving the vision of the writers or producers (in this case, Marvel Studios head Kevin Feige).

In Marvel, Feige is the visionary and the buck stops with him. He knows what stories and narrative elements he wants and although directors have some creative freedom, they can’t do whatever they want like have Thor kill off Loki or Captain Marvel kill off the collector or Thanos.

In Star Wars, the buck used to stop with Lucas who at least had an overarching vision of how the story would go. In current ST Star Wars, there is no such visionary.


I’ve worked as a producer in film my entire career. And I always consider myself a voice in the room. But it’s not my ultimate decision. It’s the decision of the director, ultimately.

Lucas wasn’t just a voice, he was THE voice. Feige wasn’t a voice, he was THE voice. Kennedy was a voice. Now the first two created culturally impactful movies that have changed cinema. The last one ranked a near guaranteed franchise.
 

BTTUK

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Please don't use MCU as an example. That's the film franchise that retconned the tesseract into having an Infinity Stone. Retconned Loki's scepter into having an Infinity Stone. Flat out showed us the Infinity Gauntlet complete with stones, but oh wait we want to make everything about Thanos and the Infinity Stones. So, retcon! That gauntlet is actually a fake.

And my favorite. This is the franchise that had Captain America fall in love with his girlfriend's niece. Which is kinda weird to begin with. But wait, Captain America actually time traveled and married his girlfriend........ and holy bantha poodoo! Captain America fell in love and kissed his own niece!

Plan it all out, they did not.
Ah so because you can't accept that mistakes are made, changes are made etc, that you didn't like, then it has to objectively prove there was no plan at all....

That's a totally disingenous argument to make, especially as all of us who made the Marvel comparison, made it crystal clear that the over arching plan and end state, did/does not preclude the directors/writers from making creative choices that can still cause the characters, objects and events to be where they needed to be in that whole arc of each phase.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you've never had to adapt a plan, then that would go against every single other job in the world. Or even worse, someone micro manages to make that original plan be completed 100% as it was originally set out, which always fails.

Also the whole Endgame story was premised that going back in time meant you were in a different timeline, so Captain America in his new timeline may never have had the niece, as she was in his original timeline.

Yes I also have watched them back to back, and for me, it made the ST worse as a whole. It was totally obvious that TROS was a complete fan service exercise in a worse vein than TFA (which was forgiven by many people). It's a rare thing where some of the parts are worth more than the sum of them all, which is a sad state of affairs for a supposedly cohesive trilogy.

I don't know why I let myself be sucked into this with you, as it just feels like it has to be your way of thinking or none at all, which I frankly can't be arsed with anymore, so I'm out.
 
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