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Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The above post is the perfect example of why I am constantly harping on the importance of having an honest conversation and why this topic often gets so heated.

Any excuse will do to dismiss, discredit, distract from, or otherwise "prove" us all wrong despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, often coming directly from the mouths of those involved in the making of the ST.

I'm all for open discourse but you're not going to find many supporters by acting as if these films are without flaw Joek3rr. How many times have we seen longtime contributors bow out of the conversation because they get so frustrated with this all or nothing mentality? Which is why, yet again, I'm always tempering my posts with acknowledgement that I'm not the end all authority on the subject, despite my very strong opinions.

Two of the most interesting members Solo4114 and Darth Anibal who always offer thoughtful commentary on the subject (though I disagree with them on the ST) are notably absent from the conversation and have been for a long, long time.

I disagree with CT1138 and BTTUK often, yet I respect their acknowledgement of the imperfection of the films for the sake of having rational discourse and allowing for differing opinions. The same goes for many other members here. We don't see eye to eye but there is a mutual respect there which allows space for debate and not trying to strong arm one another into loving everything.

We can agree to disagree.
 

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HeartBlade

Sr Member
Ah so because you can't accept that mistakes are made, changes are made etc, that you didn't like, then it has to objectively prove there was no plan at all....

That's a totally disingenous argument to make, especially as all of us who made the Marvel comparison, made it crystal clear that the over arching plan and end state, did/does not preclude the directors/writers from making creative choices that can still cause the characters, objects and events to be where they needed to be in that whole arc of each phase.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you've never had to adapt a plan, then that would go against every single other job in the world. Or even worse, someone micro manages to make that original plan be completed 100% as it was originally set out, which always fails.

Also the whole Endgame story was premised that going back in time meant you were in a different timeline, so Captain America in his new timeline may never have had the niece, as she was in his original timeline.

Yes I also have watched them back to back, and for me, it made the ST worse as a whole. It was totally obvious that TROS was a complete fan service exercise in a worse vein than TFA (which was forgiven by many people). It's a rare thing where some of the parts are worth more than the sum of them all, which is a sad state of affairs for a supposedly cohesive trilogy.

I don't know why I let myself be sucked into this with you, as it just feels like it has to be your way of thinking or none at all, which I frankly can't be arsed with anymore, so I'm out.
I would say ironically, the MCU is the actual example of what Joker is making the ST out to be.

The MCU is the largest movie franchise ever made with a narrative spanning over 56 movies and counting. Nevermind the fact that Marvel started out as a bankrupt property with its most profitable IPs sold to other entities (X-men and F4 to Fox, Spiderman to Sony). Contingencies and flexibility had to be built in to the franchise and Feige himself mentioned that there was a different iteration of the Avengers or final confrontation with Thanos. You do need to veer away from plans if you run into a crisis.

However, that doesn’t mean the end goal can completely change. The goal was still to create the team known as the avengers, have them learn about galactic threats beyond Earth and confront them. There was arguably some help with the comics creating an initial outline with Feige confirming that he adheres to the comic book way of telling stories (individual movies to introduce characters and hints with collab films to really push the narrative).

Dogmatically sticking to a plan 100% despite warning signs signifying that you need to adjust or reassess is a recipe for failure. But so is going in without a plan and throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks (mainly because of you don’t know what your end goal is, you can’t even narrow down what would stick or even see what actually sticks).

Marvel has balanced this quite beautifully and it sure as hell took a hell lot of talent and planning and risk taking to get there which is why every other studio that has tried to launch their own “cinematic multiverse” has failed.
 

BTTUK

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I would say ironically, the MCU is the actual example of what Joker is making the ST out to be.

The MCU is the largest movie franchise ever made with a narrative spanning over 56 movies and counting. Nevermind the fact that Marvel started out as a bankrupt property with its most profitable IPs sold to other entities (X-men and F4 to Fox, Spiderman to Sony). Contingencies and flexibility had to be built in to the franchise and Feige himself mentioned that there was a different iteration of the Avengers or final confrontation with Thanos. You do need to veer away from plans if you run into a crisis.

However, that doesn’t mean the end goal can completely change. The goal was still to create the team known as the avengers, have them learn about galactic threats beyond Earth and confront them. There was arguably some help with the comics creating an initial outline with Feige confirming that he adheres to the comic book way of telling stories (individual movies to introduce characters and hints with collab films to really push the narrative).

Dogmatically sticking to a plan 100% despite warning signs signifying that you need to adjust or reassess is a recipe for failure. But so is going in without a plan and throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks (mainly because of you don’t know what your end goal is, you can’t even narrow down what would stick or even see what actually sticks).

Marvel has balanced this quite beautifully and it sure as hell took a hell lot of talent and planning and risk taking to get there which is why every other studio that has tried to launch their own “cinematic multiverse” has failed.

100% agree.

It shouldn't have been too hard to plan for at least three films, and pull it off in a considered and well thought through way. A lot of the issue for me, or the stem of the problem, was the deadlines that were set to seemingly push the films out as fast as possible, rather than take their time.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
That whole post TFA production period with SW was rough, seemed like Lucasfilm couldn’t stick to anything or have faith in the creatives they hired. Who knows if Solo or Trevorrows episode 9 would have been better as originally planned, but it’s really jarring seeing the directors fired like that. Exhibits a real lack of control IMO
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
But honest the contrast between Star Wars and the MCU is crazy.

We’ve forgotten now because Marvel is such a juggernaut where every new entry is likely a guaranteed half a bil hit but Marvel was nothing when it started. It’s most popular characters were outsourced. No one apart from comic book fans cared about the Avengers. Hell, most people probably didn’t know the difference between Marvel and DC.

The stars were literal unknowns. Chris Hemsworth was a nobody that Jimmy Kimmel felt comfortable to make fun of. Chris Evans was also a relative nobody who did comedy films and bounced around. The biggest star was RDJ who they could get relatively cheap because he was out of options despite his immense talent.

Meanwhile, Star Wars was so popular that celebrities came out the wood work stating they were fans. People were hyped that a Star Wars movie was coming out and A-list stars were willing to take none speaking/faceless roles as cameos essentially for free just so they could be in Star Wars (Simon Pegg was the voice of Unkar, Daniel Craig was the stormtrooper who gave his gun to Rey).

Star Wars could have literally gotten any celebrity to play a main role for a discount and could delay their movies to have 4 or 6 year spans in between If they wanted. Fans would complain and moan but if the story was amazing, they would still go watch and just rewatch the previous entries in the meantime.

Now, actors would kill to be in a Marvel movie and many are pitching on what character they would be. If an actor is offered a contract for a Star Wars movie vs a MCU entry now, they would undoubtably for MCU.
 

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cboath

Master Member
Why stick to a plan? For the same reason you married your wife. Because you didn't want or need to wait until someone better came along.

I'm not saying their original plan was without flaw but at least it would have been consistent.

Not to mention if the MCU was just a case of winging it then what were those Phases about?

Plus I hate to break the illusion but even professional writers come up with multiple drafts before their stories even resemble something good.

Not to mention they had all 3 original directors on board before the 1st one was released. That theory would be so they'd have a say in the so-called 'plan'.

I find it hard to believe, too, that 'the plan' involved making everyone from the OT end up miserable and undoing the ending of ROTJ by bringing back the emperor.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Really?


“Remember, George had an overall arc. If he didn’t have all the details, he had sort of an overall feel for where the three were going. But this one’s more like a relay race. You run and hand the torch off to the next guy, he picks it up and goes. Rian didn’t write what happens in 9 – he was going to hand it off to, originally, Colin Trevorrow and now J.J.”

Meanwhile, let’s look at Marvel’s “lack“ of planning.


You know, between five and 10 in a very broad 35,000-foot way. The next three or four years, much more specifically than that. We do have the plan that we’ve been working on now for many years and will eventually be talking about


Directing a Marvel movie is, some have argued, more akin to directing a television show, where the focus is on serving the vision of the writers or producers (in this case, Marvel Studios head Kevin Feige).

In Marvel, Feige is the visionary and the buck stops with him. He knows what stories and narrative elements he wants and although directors have some creative freedom, they can’t do whatever they want like have Thor kill off Loki or Captain Marvel kill off the collector or Thanos.

In Star Wars, the buck used to stop with Lucas who at least had an overarching vision of how the story would go. In current ST Star Wars, there is no such visionary.


I’ve worked as a producer in film my entire career. And I always consider myself a voice in the room. But it’s not my ultimate decision. It’s the decision of the director, ultimately.

Lucas wasn’t just a voice, he was THE voice. Feige wasn’t a voice, he was THE voice. Kennedy was a voice. Now the first two created culturally impactful movies that have changed cinema. The last one ranked a near guaranteed franchise.
Yeah, except George didn't have an idea of where things were going. And if he did they went out the window with ESB. Star Wars completely changed from ANH to ESB. Star Wars was originally supposed to be loosely connected series of films not unlike the James Bond franchise, that would focus on the the adventure of Luke Skywalker. But George changed everything when he made Darth Vader Luke's father. Changed the Emperor from a corrupt powerless politician (undoubtedly that was recycles into Chancellor Valourm) into the dark Force using master of Vader. Anyways....

There's a very big difference between Kevin Feige and Kathleen Kennedy. And that's simply one is self proclaimed fanboy of the franchise that they are in charge of. Kevin is a huge Marvel fan. Kathleen, while I'm sure she loves Star Wars. She doesn't know it inside and out like Kevin does Marvel. So of course she's not THE voice in the room. Why do think she's turned to huge Star Wars fans to make the new content? Whether that be the any of the films, Sequels and spin offs, or the shows. I mean the first thing she did was create the Lucasfilm Story Group. And the vice-president Kiri Hart created the Lucasfilm 'Intellectual Property Development Group.' Kathy has constantly looked to people that know Star Wars. She's said they don't do a thing without running stuff past Dave Filoni. These people, from every corner of Lucasfilm decide on the story.

This is Lucasfilm IPDG's plan for epsidoes 8 and 9.

Furthermore. Think about this. If there truly WASN'T a plan, why did they part ways with Trevorrow? If there was no plan then it wouldn't have mattered what happened in episode 9. They could have done anything.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Not to mention they had all 3 original directors on board before the 1st one was released. That theory would be so they'd have a say in the so-called 'plan'.

I find it hard to believe, too, that 'the plan' involved making everyone from the OT end up miserable and undoing the ending of ROTJ by bringing back the emperor.
I mean part of that was George. He had everything go to pot. Luke disappears, Darth Talon seduces Han and Leia's son the dark side. A mysterious threat is controlling everything. Michael Arndt just continued with that idea.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
100% agree.

It shouldn't have been too hard to plan for at least three films, and pull it off in a considered and well thought through way. A lot of the issue for me, or the stem of the problem, was the deadlines that were set to seemingly push the films out as fast as possible, rather than take their time.
As I understand 2 1/2 to 3 years development time is pretty common. Is it not? TFA started development late 2012. By 2015, Rogue One, TLJ, and Solo, I believe are all concurrently in development.
 

BTTUK

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
And round and round we go...

Disney didn't take over LFL until October 2012. TFA started filming in April 2014. Make of that what you will.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
And round and round we go...

Disney didn't take over LFL until October 2012. TFA started filming in April 2014. Make of that what you will.
I didn't say filming though.... I said development. Episode 7 started development the day after the sale to Disney. Technically it started earlier, when Michael Arndt was hired. From mid to late 2012(depending on when Michael started writing) to December 2015 is just over two years.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
I think George having a plan or not is moot, because he was clearly making crap up as he went and it leaves some glaring issues upon rewatching. The thing is that the OT is great in spite of that, because of good characters and a timeless story set on a backdrop of incredible technical artistry and a genre defining score by Williams.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
I think George having a plan or not is moot, because he was clearly making crap up as he went and it leaves some glaring issues upon rewatching. The thing is that the OT is great in spite of that, because of good characters and a timeless story set on a backdrop of incredible technical artistry and a genre defining score by Williams.
No arguments there.
 

cboath

Master Member
I mean part of that was George. He had everything go to pot. Luke disappears, Darth Talon seduces Han and Leia's son the dark side. A mysterious threat is controlling everything. Michael Arndt just continued with that idea.

Did GL have Luke disappear? sure. Give up on the galaxy and his family? no. That was added by others

Han and Leia's kid turn to the dark side? Sure. Han and Leia give up and quit on each other and have poor lives? no, again, others.

Resurrecting the emperor? No. Added post E8 - by others

End of E6, Luke, Han, Leia going on to happy times. Emperor dead, Republic being reborn.

Start of 7, Luke, Han, Leia - busted and broken, no mention of anything positive every happening, divorced before we knew they officially married, new republic blown up. E9, bring back palps. So, what exactly didn't they undo about the end of the OT? Ben and Yoda are still dead. That's about it.

The two compelling things left after 7 were Snoke (an unknown as the big bad), rey's mysterious parents. 8, pfft, offs Snoke with no more exposition on him at all and rey becomes a nobody. 7 sets up the resistance. 8, resistance down to however many people fit in the Falcon.

9, we change rey again, pull the emperor out their butts because 8 killed off every ongoing thread except the good guys prevailing at the end.

A 'plan' has you set the story in motion in part 1 and have a decent ending, 2 furthers the ongoing plots, and 3 ties them all up. Problem was, through little to no planning, or the willful ignoring of planning tied all the relevant points up at the end of part 2. I said before and I'll say again, what exactly do we miss out on if there's no E9? A happy ending, that's all. If they called it quits after 8, it's the equivalent of ending like E3 with the bad guys gaining control. It's not happy, but it would be an acceptable end to that story.

I mean you can tie the larger plot points to the OT. From what we saw Tarkin and Vader were the big bads. There was a throwaway line about the emperor, but he had zero effect on ANH or ESB really. For all intents and purposes the emperor was an irrelevant nobody in ANH. In ESB Vader is in charge of everyone we see, but the emperor is brought into the picture officially. In ROTJ we see him gain his prominence and that in fact everyone is under his control.

The emperor in the OT fails if he materializes out of thin air in ROTJ. You have to lay the ground work for the payoff to land. They flat out did not. And it's because the emperor wasn't in the cards during work on 7 and 8.

You want to see a masterful plan? Read the Harry Potter books. That whole thing was laid out beautifully with little clues dropped along the way that you don't see without knowing the full picture. They could have had a disclaimer on 7 and 8 saying '*no hints were dropped during the airing of this motion picture'. There's nothing to go back and pick up on in the other two to give any clue of what was coming. In this case, it was not due to good storytelling.
 

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harrisonp

Sr Member
I think the argument of 8 cutting all the threads isn’t that strong because it actually leaves us with new interesting trajectories to be followed, it’s just that JJ didn’t care and made a direct sequel to his movie. Trevorrows leaks show that there was somewhere decent to go. We’ll never know how he would have executed his movie, and there were dumb things in it (like Rey/Poe) but an unhinged Kylo who is now without a master was an awesome seed leading into 9, it just lasts all of 10 minutes before papa Palps shows up.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Did GL have Luke disappear? sure. Give up on the galaxy and his family? no. That was added by others

Han and Leia's kid turn to the dark side? Sure. Han and Leia give up and quit on each other and have poor lives? no, again, others.

Resurrecting the emperor? No. Added post E8 - by others

End of E6, Luke, Han, Leia going on to happy times. Emperor dead, Republic being reborn.

Start of 7, Luke, Han, Leia - busted and broken, no mention of anything positive every happening, divorced before we knew they officially married, new republic blown up. E9, bring back palps. So, what exactly didn't they undo about the end of the OT? Ben and Yoda are still dead. That's about it.

The two compelling things left after 7 were Snoke (an unknown as the big bad), rey's mysterious parents. 8, pfft, offs Snoke with no more exposition on him at all and rey becomes a nobody. 7 sets up the resistance. 8, resistance down to however many people fit in the Falcon.

9, we change rey again, pull the emperor out their butts because 8 killed off every ongoing thread except the good guys prevailing at the end.

A 'plan' has you set the story in motion in part 1 and have a decent ending, 2 furthers the ongoing plots, and 3 ties them all up. Problem was, through little to no planning, or the willful ignoring of planning tied all the relevant points up at the end of part 2. I said before and I'll say again, what exactly do we miss out on if there's no E9? A happy ending, that's all. If they called it quits after 8, it's the equivalent of ending like E3 with the bad guys gaining control. It's not happy, but it would be an acceptable end to that story.

I mean you can tie the larger plot points to the OT. From what we saw Tarkin and Vader were the big bads. There was a throwaway line about the emperor, but he had zero effect on ANH or ESB really. For all intents and purposes the emperor was an irrelevant nobody in ANH. In ESB Vader is in charge of everyone we see, but the emperor is brought into the picture officially. In ROTJ we see him gain his prominence and that in fact everyone is under his control.

The emperor in the OT fails if he materializes out of thin air in ROTJ. You have to lay the ground work for the payoff to land. They flat out did not. And it's because the emperor wasn't in the cards during work on 7 and 8.

You want to see a masterful plan? Read the Harry Potter books. That whole thing was laid out beautifully with little clues dropped along the way that you don't see without knowing the full picture. They could have had a disclaimer on 7 and 8 saying '*no hints were dropped during the airing of this motion picture'. There's nothing to go back and pick up on in the other two to give any clue of what was coming. In this case, it was not due to good storytelling.
Again and again, I'm forced to repeat myself George Lucas's Luke Skywalker was "hiding from the world in a cave after something traumatic."

Han and Leia's drifting apart (not divorced) was Michael Arndt's idea, though possibly George's too. We know that from some really early concept that the heroes would Han and Chewie on Felcucia part way through epsidoe 7.

I would say there's 5 compelling things at the end of TFA.
1 who's Rey, why has the Force chosen her?
2 Snoke? Is he important or not?
3 what really happened between Luke and Ben?
4 what will the First Order do now that their big base is destroyed?
5 what's up with Kylo? He's talking to Darth Vader's melted mask and it seems it or someone or something is showing him the power of the dark side

TLJ answers some of those questions, but almost with more questions
1 Rey seems to be nobody. Chosen by the Force to balance Kylo.
2 Snoke is most decidedly not important
3 we see why Luke is hiding out and what went down between him and Ben
4 the First Order has a lot more ships we first thought
5, this one isn't answered

TLJ also sets up some stuff
1 are Rey's parents truly nobodies who sold her off for drinking money? Rey says they are nobodies, but can we trust what Kylo sees/says?
2 Rey and Ben have a connection that extends beyond Snoke, why? And what will this lead to?
3 where does the First Order get everything?
4 will Ben return to the light? Luke seemed hopeful.
5 no answers to Vader's mask


TROS gives us answers
1 we were only seeing part of the story with Rey's parents. Yes they were nobodies but there's more.
2 Rey and Ben are a dyad in the Force. Which is like the power of life itself.
3 the First Order was apart of a plan to take back the galaxy. A plan decades in the making.
4. Ben does return to the light.
5 Palpatine had been manipulating Ben all this time, masquerading as Vader.
 

cboath

Master Member
Again and again, I'm forced to repeat myself George Lucas's Luke Skywalker was "hiding from the world in a cave after something traumatic."

Han and Leia's drifting apart (not divorced) was Michael Arndt's idea, though possibly George's too. We know that from some really early concept that the heroes would Han and Chewie on Felcucia part way through epsidoe 7.

I would say there's 5 compelling things at the end of TFA.
1 who's Rey, why has the Force chosen her?
2 Snoke? Is he important or not?
3 what really happened between Luke and Ben?
4 what will the First Order do now that their big base is destroyed?
5 what's up with Kylo? He's talking to Darth Vader's melted mask and it seems it or someone or something is showing him the power of the dark side

TLJ answers some of those questions, but almost with more questions
1 Rey seems to be nobody. Chosen by the Force to balance Kylo.
2 Snoke is most decidedly not important
3 we see why Luke is hiding out and what went down between him and Ben
4 the First Order has a lot more ships we first thought
5, this one isn't answered

TLJ also sets up some stuff
1 are Rey's parents truly nobodies who sold her off for drinking money? Rey says they are nobodies, but can we trust what Kylo sees/says?
2 Rey and Ben have a connection that extends beyond Snoke, why? And what will this lead to?
3 where does the First Order get everything?
4 will Ben return to the light? Luke seemed hopeful.
5 no answers to Vader's mask


TROS gives us answers
1 we were only seeing part of the story with Rey's parents. Yes they were nobodies but there's more.
2 Rey and Ben are a dyad in the Force. Which is like the power of life itself.
3 the First Order was apart of a plan to take back the galaxy. A plan decades in the making.
4. Ben does return to the light.
5 Palpatine had been manipulating Ben all this time, masquerading as Vader.

Oh come on....Rey's parents changed in 9 because JJ didn't like the nobody aspect because he set up 'somebody' in 7.

No one knew WTF a dyad in the force was because it was created for 9. If not, it would have come up somewhere along the long as foreshadowing. It didn't.

No one care about answering what the FO was because it was largely assumed right - the remnants of the empire not giving up. The only 'answer' was who was running the show.

Ben coming back wasn't anything needing answered after 8.

EP manipulating Ben again wasn't anything that needed answered. And it couldn't have been tipped sooner because they only invented it for 9.

And again, NONE of it had to be answered to finish anything off. None of them were questions anyone was anxious to know.
 

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