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HeartBlade

Sr Member
I don't deny those examples you cited but in a way they reinforce my point in that they're still only mimicking Star Wars. Using token imagery and references to those influences is fine (the OT certainly did that which is what they're currently mimicking) but to me that's all they are: token imagery and references. I'm speaking more of taking cues from the structure and overall tone/style of those genres to make your movies, not just simple callbacks to them. It comes off like a shallow attempt to capture the formula of Star Wars without having truly understood why it worked the first time.

I agree, due to the narrative the references are surface level and arnt integral to the overall story told on ST.

The lightsaber “choosing” Rey in TFA like the sword in the stone? This point is turned up on its head with the reveal in TLJ that Rey is nobody (if she is nobody why did the saber choose her) and the saber doesn’t show any loyalty to the “chosen one” again the rest of the film (just becomes a regular weapon for all intents and purposes).

Calling TFA a fairy tale doesn’t mean much because the premise of Star Wars is fairy-tale. The only “non-fairy take” Star Wars is maybe Rogue One which cut down on explicit mysticism.

It does feel that the ST was made as a cash grab rather than a natural expansion of the universe with the fact that the ST doesn’t bring anything new into the Star Wars galaxy (except some concepts that arguably break the galaxy). Same sand planet, snow (salt planet), dark side planet, big Death Star weapon.

The only actual contributions are using the Holdo maneuver to render space battles useless through the use of droids (which exist as shown in PT) and the concept of force diodes which makes the concept of training completely useless (and arguably is also rendered useless in TRoS. If Ben is supposed to increase in the power of darkness in proportion to Rey in the light, why is he redeemed at the end? Why can Kylo never win or at least tie a fight with Rey even though they are equal in strength?)
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
It exceeds in taking a steaming dump on the 6 films before it. It does that really well in fact. :lol:

In all seriousness though even George had a problem trying to reference his own movies within the PT. I mean yes there needed to be connective tissue to bridge the gap between trilogies, but so much emphasis was put on Anakin because as Red Letter Media put it, Anakin is only famous because he's famous to US, the audience. Therefore everything is centered around getting Anakin in the suit to become Darth Vader rather than feeling like a natural progression of a hero falling from grace.

JJ had the same issue when it came to TFA and the ST at large battled this meta narrative or self awareness too. Even the concept that the Jedi have been mostly forgotten by that point in the story and yet Luke is somehow a legend that even a nobody on some backwater planet knows his name and his exploits. Those two ideas are at odds with one another if you think about it for more than a minute. Luke was recognizable to Rey because it made sense to the audience, not to Rey's character. If we are looking at it from the perspective of having watched 1-7 then Rey has no reason to even know who or what Luke is because he has absolutely no bearing on her life, and yet she inserts herself into the story because the plot dictated it, not because she had any real reason to be there.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
The lightsaber “choosing” Rey in TFA like the sword in the stone? This point is turned up on its head with the reveal in TLJ that Rey is nobody (if she is nobody why did the saber choose her) and the saber doesn’t show any loyalty to the “chosen one” again the rest of the film (just becomes a regular weapon for all intents and purposes).

The Skywalker lightsaber flies to Rey's outstretched hand and not to the guy who actually has Skywalker blood flowing through his veins. It's almost like the Force is trying to say something. It's almost like Rey is more worthy of the Skywalker legacy? And that Rey will become a Skywalker.
SMP01XyyPwmYZQv6wojSPqudZkLqk6jWQZ-Kw6MgyHg.jpg
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
The Skywalker lightsaber flies to Rey's outstretched hand and not to the guy who actually has Skywalker blood flowing through his veins. It's almost like the Force is trying to say something. It's almost like Rey is more worthy of the Skywalker legacy? And that Rey will become a Skywalker.
View attachment 1362719

Completely missing the point in both the source you state and the point I raised.

The book says the saber flies to Rey because she is the “skywalker” of the ST, essentially the protagonist. Hence, Skywalker is a metaphor. Nothing about her becoming the next Skywalker, reading too much into it because you want it to.

Im also not saying that the saber flying to Rey was not symbolic in TFA. It was incredibly symbolic although I would point out the fact that the saber literally calls out to Rey (hence why she is the one to find it in Max’s belongings) and gets visions as well as hear Obi Wan say these are your first steps is more indicative than the saber flying to Rey. Obviously the saber chose her In TFA. No one is debating that.

However, this falls completely on its face in TLJ when it is revealed that a) Rey is nobody, and b) the saber shows no will from that point on. Rey has to be somebody, whether a manifestation of the force like Anakin (the new one), a descendent, or chosen in some way or why does “the sword in the stone” choose her as the worthy wielder among all others? Nevermind that the saber just becomes a regular saber after TFA, being wielded by Ben as his main weapon in TRoS and just generally being a regular sword instead of Exalibur.
 

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HeartBlade

Sr Member
To build upon the point, it is also lazy writing/pandering to make Anakin’s lightsaber special.

Although in terms of fandom we consider Anakin’s lightsaber to be “the lightsaber” because it is the first lightsaber we see on screen and the one Luke used in the majority of his adventures, in universe its just a weapon like any other lightsaber. It’s no exalibur.

I assumed Ben wanted it because it’s grandad’s saber and Rey wanted it because it’s a Jedi weapon and I don’t know how to make one of my own yet. Anakin’s saber was always a “novice saber” in my eyes. It is when Luke loses Anakin’s saber and completes his training, including building his own unique green lightsaber, that he emerges as a Jedi knight and eventual master, shedding the power “bestowed” by his father and standing as his own man with his own weapon. It made the glamorization of Anakin’s saber feel off imo. I might be alone on this interpretation though.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Daisy herself said the story changed from film to film. First she was supposed to linked to Obi-Wan, then she was no one, then they made her the Emperor's grand daughter, and even that idea wasn't set in stone during filming. It's one thing to alter certain elements of a trilogy during filming but those are fundamental structural issues that have drastically different outcomes with the plot, so it's hard for fans to get on board when it's clear they were making it up completely on the fly.

There really is no way to negate this, especially when it's coming directly from the source.
 

ThreadSketch

Active Member
Daisy herself said the story changed from film to film. First she was supposed to linked to Obi-Wan, then she was no one, then they made her the Emperor's grand daughter, and even that idea wasn't set in stone during filming. It's one thing to alter certain elements of a trilogy during filming but those are fundamental structural issues that have drastically different outcomes with the plot, so it's hard for fans to get on board when it's clear they were making it up completely on the fly.

There really is no way to negate this, especially when it's coming directly from the source.

Someone could argue, "But the OT had the same issues during filming/planning! Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader started out as separate characters! Vader wasn't originally Luke's father! Luke and Leia weren't twins, the Other™ was a totally off-screen character named Nellith! Lucas flew by the seat of his pants the whole way too!"

Yeah, he did, and by some miracle it still mostly worked out - debatably so, but mostly. However, given that SW is now an established franchise, that's no excuse whatsoever to repeat the same mistakes and risks. You can't capture lightning in a bottle, and you certainly shouldn't play Russian roulette even if the first guy got away with it successfully. When there's billions of dollars at stake, you should hammer the major plot points and characters out solidly before ever getting the camera involved. I'm not saying play it "safe" for the sake of profit margins, I mean play it smart. Lucas was an independent young filmmaker - Disney is a literal entertainment Empire. You wanna maximize your investment? Don't pull the kind of shenanigans Lucas did and hope you'll be as lucky. All of these missed opportunities and inconsistencies could have been avoided.

We give Lucas a "pass" because he was the originator of this universe, and the earliest trilogy is set far enough in the past that kvetching about the disjointed approach is pretty moot at this point - these movies are well over 40 years old. Ding, fries are done. I don't think even Lucas himself repeated that many of his own faux pas when working on the PT - it'd be the equivalent of creating the character of Padmé Amidala as a standalone unrelated to the Skywalker family and then halfway through AOTC deciding that THEN she's suddenly the mother of Luke and Leia, for example.*

(*The PT has plenty of other issues when it comes to not quite fitting in with the OT, but I'd argue that they're relatively minor in comparison, at least enough that it doesn't completely violate the saga to the point where it's unacceptable. It's annoying and I don't necessarily like it, especially when it wouldn't have been difficult at all to MAKE them fit, but it can be mostly handwaved.)

Also remember that Lucas was operating under a gambled situation - there was no certainty that SW would be a hit at all, let alone make back enough to cover costs. We can forgive him a little for starting out with a somewhat incomplete picture of the story and characters when he had no idea whether he'd be able to continue it past the first film. Once it blew up and he realized he could keep it going, it's understandable he'd start drawing different conclusions that could enhance the story far beyond what it originally aimed for (or wrap it up prematurely to its detriment when he burned out and was having personal difficulties). Disney was SO far away from this scenario it's laughable.

This was a fresh start and a new age under a mega corporation. Disney was so busy crowing about continuity and how they were going to do such a better job with their entire interconnected universe - and then they couldn't even bother to tack down their new protagonist, at bare minimum. It's embarrassing and infuriating.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Daisy herself said the story changed from film to film. First she was supposed to linked to Obi-Wan, then she was no one, then they made her the Emperor's grand daughter, and even that idea wasn't set in stone during filming. It's one thing to alter certain elements of a trilogy during filming but those are fundamental structural issues that have drastically different outcomes with the plot, so it's hard for fans to get on board when it's clear they were making it up completely on the fly.

There really is no way to negate this, especially when it's coming directly from the source.
She said they toyed with the idea. That doesn't mean that's what they decided upon for TFA. I'm sure they explored many many options for Rey while writing.

Is it bad to alter things while filming? They filmed Luke and Leia kissing in ROTJ before they made them brother and sister.
 

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HeartBlade

Sr Member
Completely agree that just winging it is not acceptable when managing a billion dollar project. It’s necessary to be flexible at times but you also need to have a decently concrete vision of how you want the story to go and how the characters evolve and tackle challenges within that story.

She said they toyed with the idea. That doesn't mean that's what they decided upon for TFA. I'm sure they explored many many options for Rey while writing.

Is it bad to alter things while filming? They filmed Luke and Leia kissing in ROTJ before they made them brother and sister.

That isn’t a plan. And that isn’t what Daisy said either.


Interviewer: did you always know [Rey’s background]?

Daisy: no. We first toyed with Obi Wan connection and different versions (likely around TFA, maybe TLJ. Not great but salvageable).

Then we went to she was no one (TLJ).

And in Episode 9, JJ pitched Palpatine is your grandaddy, then two weeks later we arnt sure. And it kept changing so even while filming I wasn’t sure what the answer as going to be.

So they did a 180 (Rey is no one to Rey is a Palpatine) in the span of one movie and were still discussing a major plot point while filming. This is bad planning. Student essays are better planned than this.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
They also should have examined those faux pas that Lucas dealt with and made sure to have a cohesive vision this time BECAUSE THEY COULD. They have the money and commitment to making a trilogy. They weren’t going to have the rug pulled out from them like George was risking with Fox at every decision.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
She said they toyed with the idea. That doesn't mean that's what they decided upon for TFA. I'm sure they explored many many options for Rey while writing.

Is it bad to alter things while filming? They filmed Luke and Leia kissing in ROTJ before they made them brother and sister.

As I said before it's natural to evolve the film while it's being made but it's something else entirely to change major plot points from film to film. Especially when those elements are crucial to the story. JJ made a big deal about her lineage so the expectation was there would be a definitive answer and not linger as the crux on which this trilogy hangs.

Each one of those scenarios with Rey's lineage would yield vastly different outcomes and the inconsistencies are glaring because it changed every movie.

As ThreadSketch noted, Lucasfilm had plenty of time in 2012 to map the story out in broad strokes so there really was no excuse to let it be mishandled.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
Speaking of writing back to your starting point (as from the OT to the PT) I’m of the belief that Palpatine never should have had a lightsaber. He very explicitly calls it “your Jedi weapon” and it would have been more unique to see him use the Darkside powers like lightning and choking against the Jedi who come to arrest him with Windu. It’s arguably below his station to fight with a manual tool like a saber IMO.
 

cboath

Master Member
The Skywalker lightsaber flies to Rey's outstretched hand and not to the guy who actually has Skywalker blood flowing through his veins. It's almost like the Force is trying to say something. It's almost like Rey is more worthy of the Skywalker legacy? And that Rey will become a Skywalker.
View attachment 1362719
not a direct comment on Pablo himself, but, he's not star wars. He's a guy hired to try and keep the story lines in place so to speak. You can get away with saying 'because George said so' because it's his thing. You can't say that about anyone else because they are then interpreting as they go forward.

So, because Pablo said so doesn't make it right, it just makes it his opinion.

And i'll further it by saying that answer isn't actually important. Personally, i think it goes to Rey because - level of skill be damned - she wanted it more. Kylo's hurt and worn down and while she may not have the skills down, she wanted it more. It wasn't the forced wanted her to have it or anything like that. Sheer want to. But, that's my opinion and it's no more wrong or right than anyone else's because those who created it never specifically answered the question. That answer never came not because it's not really relevant, but because the creator's of the scene didn't care. All that mattered was that it looked/played cool.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
As I said before it's natural to evolve the film while it's being made but it's something else entirely to change major plot points from film to film. Especially when those elements are crucial to the story. JJ made a big deal about her lineage so the expectation was there would be a definitive answer and not linger as the crux on which this trilogy hangs.

Each one of those scenarios with Rey's lineage would yield vastly different outcomes and the inconsistencies are glaring because it changed every movie.

As ThreadSketch noted, Lucasfilm had plenty of time in 2012 to map the story out in broad strokes so there really was no excuse to let it be mishandled.
And they did plan out the broad strokes. According to Bob Iger, Michael Arndt wrote a a 50 some page treatment which became the basis for all 3 films. Including some of the novels.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Speaking of writing back to your starting point (as from the OT to the PT) I’m of the belief that Palpatine never should have had a lightsaber. He very explicitly calls it “your Jedi weapon” and it would have been more unique to see him use the Darkside powers like lightning and choking against the Jedi who come to arrest him with Windu. It’s arguably below his station to fight with a manual tool like a saber IMO.

Yeah there does seem to be a certain amount of disdain in the Emperor's voice when Vader hands Luke's weapon over to him. For that matter Yoda didn't need one either as far as I'm concerned.


And they did plan out the broad strokes. According to Bob Iger, Michael Arndt wrote a a 50 some page treatment which became the basis for all 3 films. Including some of the novels.

They didn't seem to stick with it. Otherwise there wouldn't be such major inconsistencies and none of us would be questioning it.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
They didn't seem to stick with it. Otherwise there wouldn't be such major inconsistencies and none of us would be questioning it.
Just because they didn't rigidly adhere to their plan doesn't mean they didn't have one. And why would they? Why write themselves into a corner? I mean it would irresponsible for them not to explore other ideas while developing the films. And what film franchise maps out a plan that the film makers must adhere to?
 

ALLEY

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The Skywalker lightsaber flies to Rey's outstretched hand and not to the guy who actually has Skywalker blood flowing through his veins. It's almost like the Force is trying to say something. It's almost like Rey is more worthy of the Skywalker legacy? And that Rey will become a Skywalker.
View attachment 1362719

Well, the Skywalker Lightsaber really is a dark and cursed object... it was used to cut the head off of Count Poodoo, slaughtered “younglings”, slaughtered the members of the Trade Federation, was wielded by Anakin in his duel with Kenobi, and was used by Luke Skywalker in his crushing defeat in The Empire Strikes Back.

I would run from that thing if it tried to fly into my grip.
 
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