Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Psab keel]

To me this is a more legitimate criticism of Jedi than some others I've heard recently. As you said we all know that Lucas was tired of Star Wars and just wanted to wrap it up.

I always assumed that Yoda was just expressing regret that it came to that point for Luke and perhaps even knowing Vader needed to be stopped, when faced with the reality of it he started having doubts about the choices he and Ben had made in their past. Yoda comments about it being unfortunate that Luke must rush to face his father I always interpreted as Yoda lamenting that things had gotten so bad and his regret in the way he handled Anakins fall in that it was left to Luke to clean up what was partly their fault.

As far as Luke needing more training perhaps it was more a stalling tactic to keep Luke from leaving Dagobah at that crucial moment, knowing Luke was at his most susceptible because of his impatience. The training he required was to learn to hone that ability. By the time Luke comes back, it didn't matter because Luke knew the truth by then. Or perhaps it was Yoda regretting that Luke knew the truth because it would be that much harder for Luke to do what Yoda and Ben felt was necessary by killing Vader. To me this really gave Yoda some true gravitas on top of what we saw in Empire because now Bens failure and perhaps Yoda's, looking at it from the lens of 1983 and the prequels not existing yet, was left for Luke to deal with on his own with no help.

Also by that point Yoda was already dying so there wasn't much more he could teach Luke given his impending death. Even as a kid that scene always held some well earned pathos on Yoda part and enriched what we knew of his past in 1983.

 

[ThreadSketch]

It definitely sounds like a contradiction and could have benefited from some dialogue tweaks (like the "Somehow I've always known..." line, which yes, I get the meaning, but I wish it had been worded a bit differently to avoid it just turning into a moment of ridicule for so many people due to the tiresome incest thing), but if we have to make mental gymnastics for it - yeah, it may well have been that the remainder of Luke's "incomplete" training was less physical and more philosophical. Shedding that impatience and growing his faith in the Force ("I don't believe it!" "That is why you fail.") - and then Yoda and Obi-Wan themselves informing Luke of his father's true identity and being able to better manage his reaction.

Without the prequels existing at that point we don't have the whole non-attachment philosophy on the table yet, but it's pretty basic logic to assume Yoda and Obi-Wan intended to prepare Luke for the fact that, while he was related to Vader, as far as they were concerned Anakin was lost for good and Luke needed to face the notion that he might have to destroy a father who was willing to destroy his own son. I'd call it less patricide and more reality check. This in itself is extremely heavy stuff and goes well beyond just being a supernaturally-fueled acrobat and swordsman.

But by the time Luke rolls up in his dramatic Skywalker blacks and Chanel boots, Yoda likely got a whiff of what Luke had managed to settle within himself in the time since he left, and considering that he was about to croak, yeah, all he could do is throw his little hands up and say he was basically ready except for the confrontation itself.

(It's an ironic parallel I do love about ROTJ that Yoda had to school Luke on a lack of faith in the previous film...and then Luke goes and saves his father through faith. Oh how the turntables. )

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

So let me get this straight. Luke was being trained and needed more training before he confronted Vader. But Luke doesn't require any more training in ROTJ because he knows everything he needs. But he's not a Jedi because he has to confront Vader again which he shouldn't have done earlier because he wasn't finished training even though now he knows everything.

See, I've never had a problem with this.

1. Yes, Luke had mad potential, but he was still a rawhide. He ran off to Cloud City with his training still in progress.
2. There are, what, 3 years between ESB and ROTJ? So somehow (because script), Luke continued to grow in his abilities and knowledge in that timespan, to the point where he was proficient enough to not require further training in the academic sense--"No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need." With all your education completed, you still weren't a lawyer until you passed the LSAT and Bar exam.
3. He wasn't a full-fledged Jedi because (for whatever reason that precluded him being one) he had to confront his father, but by that point, there wasn't much left for Yoda to teach him.

 

[Psab keel]

From a dramatic point of view it really does sell us on the idea that Luke is truly alone when facing Vader for the final time with no guide left. Which raises the stakes because Luke could die in the effort.

Which makes the Jedi pep talk in TROS even more laughable by comparison.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

There are, what, 3 years between ESB and ROTJ?

There is roughly a year and a half between the beginning of ESB and the beginning of ROTJ. Much of that is eaten up in the Falcon limping to Bespin and Luke training on Dagobah. ROTJ follows on to the end of ESB fairly closely, and most of the delay is Luke's rehabilitation. Shadows of the Empire never made any sense to me -- nor any "Our Heroes are trying to track down Boba Fett" stories -- because Boba went straight to Tatooine, and they know it. About the last words spoken in ROTJ are Luke's, "I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine." It is days to weeks between those films, at most.

From a dramatic point of view it really does sell us on the idea that Luke is truly alone when facing Vader for the final time with no guide left. Which raises the stakes because Luke could die in the effort.

Which makes the Jedi pep talk in TROS even more laughable by comparison.

Which is stuff that should have been handled narratively. Ben told Luke that when he next went to confront Vader he'd be on his own. "I won't be able to help you." Either he -- or Yoda, before he died, who told Ben -- saw that Luke would end up before the Emperor with Vader. The story breakdown for a long time was that Luke was taken back to Had Abbadon (later Imperial Center neé Coruscant) to the Emperor's private sanctum deep below the Imperial palace. The heavy implication was that he would basically be cut off -- utterly surrounded by the Dark Side in a sort of Force faraday cage. The circumstances had shifted by the time everything got squished down to the one film that capped everything off.

And something was different, again, by the time Rey was there on Exegol. But JJ lacks the narrative chops to convey it -- just the moments surrounding and resulting from whatever's going on that he hasn't been able to or cared enough to lay out there for the audience.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Double.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

There is roughly a year and a half between the beginning of ESB and the beginning of ROTJ. Mush of that is eaten up in the Falcon limping to Bespin and Luke training on Dagobah. ROTJ follows on to the end of ESB fairly closely, and most of the delay is Luke's rehabilitation. Shadows of the Empire never made any sense to me -- nor any "Our Heroes are trying to track down Boba Fett" stories -- because Boba went straight to Tatooine, and they know it. About the last words spoken in ROTJ are Luke's, "I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine." It is days to weeks between those films, at most.

Cool (robotic) hand Luke's Jedi swag seems a bit too much for it to be just days, or even weeks after the end of ESB, don't you think? Even things like when he says to R2, "I have a promise to keep, to an old friend." It just doesn't seem like something one would say if it's been weeks since they last saw this "old" friend. How is Yoda an old friend if at most a year and a half has elapsed since they even met? Not to mention Yoda, himself. Jeez, did he decline that quickly?

I don't know. Probably not 3 years, but I certainly never felt like it was just weeks later.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Cool (robotic) hand Luke's Jedi swag seems a bit too much for it to be just days, or even weeks after the end of ESB, don't you think? Even things like when he says to R2, "I have a promise to keep, to an old friend." It just doesn't seem like something one would say if it's been weeks since they last saw this "old" friend. How is Yoda an old friend if at most a year and a half has elapsed since they even met? Not to mention Yoda, himself. Jeez, did he decline that quickly?

I don't know. Probably not 3 years, but I certainly never felt like it was just weeks later.

I know. The narrative pacing of ROTJ is a huge problem after all the setups of ESB. There were to be four films following Empire. The rescue of Han was to be one whole film. And he'd been training with Yoda for months to a year or more in Empire before he bailed. Back in April, a few weeks in stay-at-home isolation felt like years. I'm willing to bet after months of being in one place on one planet with one other person (plus Artoo), it felt to Luke like he'd been there forever. But that stretch of time wasn't effectively conveyed.

The other three films were also supposed to set up and involve Luke's sister, who had to get dropped and drastically retconned into Leia when the remaining saga run-time was cut from six hours to one. It's hard to tell from the sparse story notes I've seen for how the other half of Luke's cycle was supposed to play out, but I feel like he went back to Dagobah and Yoda told him that he didn't need any more training and he left to find his sister. Then Yoda died later -- unclear whether Luke was back there in person or felt it through the Force.

As for the clothes, he probably got them in an afternoon. Scanned by a droid, materials selected, made to fit in hours or less.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

So no one is going to mention that Yoda gave Luke no warning whatsoever about Force Lightning? Yoda just sat there knowing Luke could catch it on his lightsaber, but said nothing. Heck Obi-Wan could do it and he didn't pipe up either! Yeah I know we're looking back after seeing the Prequels, but I wonder if Lucas ever thought about Luke doing that in ROTJ.

Another thing that bugs me in ROTJ is that, again after the Prequels, we know Yoda couldn't defeat the Emperor. So what did Lucas intend when he said the Emperor knew if Anakin had kids, they were a threat? Clearly Yoda, somehow, thought Luke could march in and take out Vader AND Palpatine. I could see if he meant that Luke/Leia would be a threat as a symbol for the Rebellion, but that's not how they framed it in the movie. Clearly Luke, being Anakin's kid, would probably be more powerful than most Jedi, so I wonder how he thought Luke could actually beat them both?

 

[Psab keel]

The thing is in both instances these "problems" only arise with the addition of material that conflicts with the existing material. Which is why I take issue with how the new stuff doesn't jive with the old. If the writing was better it could have worked. It always comes down to the writing. If you establish certain ideas that set the rules of the story you have to find ways to work within those parameters. You can bend those confines within reason but if it goes too far beyond the established logic within the story it can quickly unravel.

Blocking Force lightning with a lightsaber isn't all that impressive to me. Yoda blocking it with his bare hands is pretty cool. To be honest though I think certain reveals with a power like Force lightning would have been cool to see for the first time in ROTJ. Just like Lucas managed to have hyperspace being shown from within the cockpit of the ships in the original film as a means to preserve the impact of that visual we all know from the OT, if he'd given more thought to other reveals in the PT and letting them play out to not spoil the pivotal moments in the later movies (chronologically) this would have made for more impact.

This is one of the reasons why Inquisitor Peregrinus rewrite is intriguiging because he is trying to keep those iconic moments from having the wind taken out of their sails if you were to watch the films in chronological order.

 

[BTTUK]

Duel on Cloud City was 3 ABY
Mission to Endor was 4 ABY

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Mmhm. Last Christmas was A.D. 2019. New Year's Day was A.D. 2020. And they were a week apart, not a year. Without further data it's hard to tell, so we must go by what's depicted in the films. Honestly, I'm not even sure what the plan was.

Okay...

The Rebel fleet was gathering way out by one of the GFFA's satellite globular clusters. Unsure how long the Falcon's journey there was. Given what we've seen of hyperspace travel, I'd say no more than a day or so. Luke had gotten stabilized by the onboard medical systems, so the turnaround was pretty rapid. The Falcon got refueled, Lando took a shower and put on some of Han's old clothes while his were in the wash, and Luke got fitted with a replacement hand. Whatever the turnaround time was, they didn't waste any time before Lando and Chewie headed off to Tatooine.

The first part of the plan seems to be Lando infiltrates Jabba's palace and Chewie waits with the Falcon for the others to arrive. The droids get sent in. Luke's finished his lightsaber by this point, obviously. They get there in full daylight. Leia and Chewie head in that evening...

So were they hoping Leia would be able to spring Han, and then Lando would get Chewie out of the dungeon and they'd all grab the droids and leave? Was Luke waiting in reserve, and then when Leia wasn't back out by morning, he went in? So many contingencies seemed to be playing out.

Anyway, it's a couple days after the duel that Lando and Chewie head to Tatooine. I don't see Luke and Leia dawdling any longer than they need to. I'll allow a week or two for Lando to get in position, while they scare up clothes and Luke builds his new lightsaber. The rescue itself we see is about one day, from when the droids go in to when the barge explodes. As they leave Tatooine -- sandstorm scene or no -- Leia urges Luke to hurry. "The Alliance should be assembled by now." So however long it took him to get to Dagobah, and see Yoda off to the next phase of existence, it certainly wasn't months, highly doubt weeks, may be able to see a day or two, including travel time.

So all this is why I have a hard time seeing anything more than a month between the escape from Cloud City and the Tyderium leaving for Endor.

 

[BTTUK]

Don't know, just thought i'd add the info on which in universe year, each event took place within.

 

[Solo4114]

The thing is in both instances these "problems" only arise with the addition of material that conflicts with the existing material. Which is why I take issue with how the new stuff doesn't jive with the old. If the writing was better it could have worked. It always comes down to the writing. If you establish certain ideas that set the rules of the story you have to find ways to work within those parameters. You can bend those confines within reason but if it goes too far beyond the established logic within the story it can quickly unravel.

Blocking Force lightning with a lightsaber isn't all that impressive to me. Yoda blocking it with his bare hands is pretty cool. To be honest though I think certain reveals with a power like Force lightning would have been cool to see for the first time in ROTJ. Just like Lucas managed to have hyperspace being shown from within the cockpit of the ships in the original film as a means to preserve the impact of that visual we all know from the OT, if he'd given more thought to other reveals in the PT and letting them play out to not spoil the pivotal moments in the later movies (chronologically) this would have made for more impact.

This is one of the reasons why Inquisitor Peregrinus rewrite is intriguiging because he is trying to keep those iconic moments from having the wind taken out of their sails if you were to watch the films in chronological order.

Blocking force lightning with a lightsabre is cool, as is catching it in your hand, but it's coolest if it happens in circumstances that give it meaning.

This has been one of the problems with the "rule of cool" in films. When you're telling a story, part of the point is to have emotional impact beyond the simple visual thrill. You can stick a movie chock-a-block with "cool" moments, but if nothing more is holding them together...they don't really matter and become hollow. George said a version of this in the 80s ("A special effect without a good story is a really boring thing,") but that's kind of an oversimplification of the underlying premise.

For example, consider the first Transporter film. The film is just wall-to-wall "cool" action moments...but it lacks anything to give those moments real meaning. There's a dude driving...I think....a girl somewhere for...uh....some reason? I dunno. I forget. Jason Statham basically recreates the truck chase in Raiders of the Lost Ark for 90 minutes and there's a girl in it that he's trying to protect or something. And he does martial arts. There's your movie. Compare that, however, to Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the story is clear, where we've spent time (and pacing!) building up the characters, giving them connections to each other (e.g., Indy's connection to Marion), and where we've established some really serious stakes for why we need the Macguffin. Indy's truck chase sequence becomes much more meaningful, and therefore his exploits are more thrilling, because of all of this groundwork laid in advance. The Transporter takes many of the same beats, strips out the "boring" narrative stuff, and instead leaves you with....boring action. Like, really, really boring.


You can contrast that again with, say, The Road Warrior, which includes one of the greatest truck chase sequences in film. Again, it's loaded with meaning and impact for the audience, even though we don't even really know the characters' names (Max, the Warrior Woman, turban guy, crippled mechanic). The movie's done the work to provide meaning for the action sequence, allowing it to stand out, rather than just having a truck being chased by a bunch of loonies, where all that's carrying it is the stunt work and production design.

With the prequels and sequels, the weakest moments are the ones where corners were cut in actually telling the story, so that we could cram in yet another action sequence, or do some cool moment. Yoda's lightsabre flipping green monkey routine is cool, but hollow because we don't have much of a reason to care about Darth Tyrannus/Count Dooku. He's just another bad guy with funky robes, a red sabre, and various force powers. I mean, Christopher Lee does his best with really thin gruel, but his best only gets you so far. Past that point, you need the story to be doing the work.

Likewise, with TFA, for example, there are lots of cool visuals....but not enough time spent on narrative to convey why this all matters. When JJ's sole concern is "Does it bring the audience joy," he fails to understand why something brings the audience joy. I've said this before, but the Rathtar sequence is, in my opinion, one of the worst moments in the entire sequel trilogy. Not because it isn't "exciting" (I mean....it isn't, but that's not why it's bad). But because it is dull, constructed to not be dull, and robs the movie of time that could be spent building the actual connective tissue of the story. If you're limited to a runtime of 90-150 min, you need to be watching the clock the entire time. JJ was, but he's asking himself the wrong question, which is: "Is this moment exciting?" instead of what he should be asking which is "Does this moment matter, and if so why?"

This is why I say he's a roller-coaster designer, not a filmmaker. He's really good at creating a twisting, turning, rollicking thrill-ride, but...that's it. A whole lot of it just doesn't matter. In the prequels, you get the sense that stuff matters...but that the parts that matter are all happening off-screen.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

As for the clothes, he probably got them in an afternoon. Scanned by a droid, materials selected, made to fit in hours or less.

By "Jedi swag", I meant swagger. The Luke we see walk into Jabba's palace is much more cool, collected, and deliberate. At least to me, he's always come across much more mature there. Granted, I know that time is handled sloppily, but I've just never thought it was anything less than a year. I can't find anything definitive, but a few sources are saying right around 6 months. That, I can buy.

 

[cboath]

So no one is going to mention that Yoda gave Luke no warning whatsoever about Force Lightning? Yoda just sat there knowing Luke could catch it on his lightsaber, but said nothing. Heck Obi-Wan could do it and he didn't pipe up either! Yeah I know we're looking back after seeing the Prequels, but I wonder if Lucas ever thought about Luke doing that in ROTJ.

Another thing that bugs me in ROTJ is that, again after the Prequels, we know Yoda couldn't defeat the Emperor. So what did Lucas intend when he said the Emperor knew if Anakin had kids, they were a threat? Clearly Yoda, somehow, thought Luke could march in and take out Vader AND Palpatine. I could see if he meant that Luke/Leia would be a threat as a symbol for the Rebellion, but that's not how they framed it in the movie. Clearly Luke, being Anakin's kid, would probably be more powerful than most Jedi, so I wonder how he thought Luke could actually beat them both?

Kids would be a threat because they're a weakness to their parents (vader). The threat would be if the offspring of vader threatened the emperor, that there's a good chance the father switches sides to attack the emperor and side with the son/daughter. Additionally, if vader is that powerful, his kid(s) could be as or even moreso. So it's really multi-faceted.

 

[cboath]

Don't know, just thought i'd add the info on which in universe year, each event took place within.

If an event took place in December 2019, NO ONE would ever refer to an event in January 2020 as one year after the december event. Never.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Kids would be a threat because they're a weakness to their parents (vader). The threat would be if the offspring of vader threatened the emperor, that there's a good chance the father switches sides to attack the emperor and side with the son/daughter. Additionally, if vader is that powerful, his kid(s) could be as or even moreso. So it's really multi-faceted.

Yeah, but in the movie Yoda and Obi-Wan pretty much both say that Vader is lost. I don't think that was anywhere in their plan. Yoda was surprised that Vader even revealed that he was Luke's father. So they must have had some other plan thinking Luke was actually powerful enough to defeat them.

 

[cboath]

He was lost as in he'd never be good or considered good. Evil pricks do things for their kids all the time, yet still be evil. Vader's kids being threats because it could divide vader's loyalty is a given aspect frankly. Just because one evil prick kills another doesn't make them good again.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Just because one evil prick kills another doesn't make them good again.

Apparently in Star Wars, it means exactly that!