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Well he didn't, did he? I mean he didn't even try, a whole animated series had to be made to try and show that Anakin and Obi wan are friends. In the movies they just seem totallybirritated by each other all the time. "And he was a good friend...". Yea sure...

I don't know. I get the bickering between them. Obi-wan was thrust into a position of mentorship that he never desired. And in fact questioned Quigon about even taking Anakin.

His mentorship turned literally into that of sibling rivalry. They very much were like brothers. Obi-wan being condescending in many regards, and Anakin always trying to live up to him, and competing with him. Their friendship was reluctant, but there as family tends to form relationships.

It's the only way to look at it. It's a shame too because Anakin never should have been a child. He should have been Obi-wan's age as far as I'm concerned, to align more with comments from the OT.
 
All this prequel talk made me think of these. It's worth a watch to get a really unique take on what the prequels could have been. A friend told me about these and while I initially scoffed at it because I figured the damage had already been done, I took a chance and watched them all through. This guy takes a really interesting and nuanced look at how under the hands of a more capable writer the prequels could have been amazing movies in their own right but also enriched our understanding of the original trilogy.

I stumbled on to these videos way back when. I had a lot of these same thoughts at the time.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character.
Anakin should have been introduced as an adult similar in age to Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan trains Anakin out of friendship rather than obligation.
Owen Lars needed to play a more meaningful role.
Darth Maul needed a more significant role.
Naboo should have been Alderaan.
Etc...
So, here's the thing. Yes, the story "starts" in TPM as he leaves his mother. You can see the a-to-b-to-c of it. But is it effectively handled? No, not really. It's the difference between me saying "Anakin does X, then Y, then Z" and actually taking you on the emotional journey in a way that paces the communication of that story effectively. I don't think the PT is well paced or well told at all, although the core idea is...ok-ish. Not what I'd prefer for his motivation, but at least it basically follows.

The direction, performances, and script just don't really carry the journey effectively. It's the wrong mix of "show, don't tell" and "don't show or tell, but say what you were trying to do after the fact in an effort to clarify." And yes, when you say "Anakin and Obi-Wan were brothers. Qui-Gon was a father figure that was taken away from Anakin early on, and Obi-Wan couldn't fill his shoes, and then Palpatine did and turned him to evil," I can kinda see the outline of that in the films. But the fact that you have to draw a big highlight around that after the fact rather suggests that the message wasn't all that clear early on. Plus, it doesn't exactly map on to the earlier interpretation which is about emotional repression and unresolved separation anxiety, which I think are far more front-and-center.

I think a huge amount of that is the fact that they take so much time to do TPM. As a story on its own, TPM is...fine, I guess. Jar Jar is stupid and annoying, and much of the design choices were underwhelming. But if it wasn't part of the saga, and was just, like, a two-part episode of "The Clone Wars" or something, as some flashback, it would be ok. But as part of the overall saga? It's a massive waste of time for the story you're trying to tell. It could be handled in exposition in other films that instead spend their time showing Anakin's state of mind during the war, and then tying that much more effectively to the fall of the Republic itself. The gradual embrace of totalitarianism, all in the name of ostensibly doing it for higher purposes, grasping for quick and easy power in an attempt to solve some problem but corrupting yourself in the process, etc., etc.

But when you're limited to about roughly 7-ish hours to tell your story, man, you ain't got time to dick around with kiddie-Anakin and his super fun adventure going pod racing. Like, seriously, probably about 1/4-1/3 of TPM is devoted to getting off Tatooine. And it doesn't matter. Most of that stuff is totally irrelevant to the larger story of Anakin's fall. The same with all the Jar Jar fart jokes. Those are all just...things that happen, and you only arguably need to show them because something happened before them and if you don't show them then it raises a question of "But how'd they get out of that?" when the truth is NONE OF THAT STUFF MATTERED, or rather only maybe 20% of what was shown matters to the overall story.
Exactly this. You only have three movies to tell how Anakin falls to the dark side and the first movie offers no opportunity for that crucial character development to begin. Not to mention that we need time to first see him as a hero which will make the eventual turn to evil more impactful.
 
Funny thing that this prequel discussion came up...I do not claim to be good at storywriting. Most of my art is form both writing and visuals, I find it difficult to come up with an original story. I know where I could make changes to a story to make it work better but probably couldn't write one from scratch. In short I'm a bit of a sm@rtass when it comes to storywriting.
But the sentiment that TPM is a waste of time in the overall movie mirrors exactly my feelings when many years ago as a wee lad I had a long think about how to redo TPM and that was the only time I actually took notes of such brainstorming.
And funny enough the story beats I came up with were extremely similar to Force Awakens. When I was watching it I was like, did they read my notes? I didn't have a full story treatment, but some elements particularly rang familiar:
I was gonna start with Obi wan on some sort of mission in the outer rim. He bumps into a fleet of clones preparing for attacking the Republic led by a Sith like guy. He is taken captive but then manages to escape and crashes on Tatooine. Bumps into an adult Anakin, who is a pilot, while being hunted. Anakin refuses to take him to a safe planet where he can report back on the clone army because Obi wan has no money but they are ambushed so they have to flee, there's a scene similar to the Falcon chase where Anakin pilots and Obi wan mans the guns, demonstration of insane piloting skills, bonding, Anakin sees the might of the clone army, change of heart, etc. And in the end when Obi wan is knocked unconscious Anakin fights the Sith bloke and overpowers him when he fights out of anger and aggression...
Not claiming to be original or anything, but was very interesting to see similar scenarios on screen. I didn't have a planet destroying ball though that can be blown up by destroying the heat exchange system nor a little droid carrying important plans...:D
 
One issue I do have, are all the comics and literature that we have a Darth Vader that is tormented emotionally.

I really hate that. The Sith are supposed to be consumed with the Dark Side. Their hatred feeding off each other in sense. He turned evil for whatever big baby reasons, but he did nonetheless. All this tormented "padme" stuff and lamenting of Darth Vader really diminishes his Character. From when he turned to when he started to falter AFTER learning about Luke, he should be nothing but pure evil. None of this grey emotional *********.

I knooooooow people want stories that are deeper, but not everything is or should be. He was evil. Simple.
 
Funny thing that this prequel discussion came up...I do not claim to be good at storywriting. Most of my art is form both writing and visuals, I find it difficult to come up with an original story. I know where I could make changes to a story to make it work better but probably couldn't write one from scratch. In short I'm a bit of a sm@rtass when it comes to storywriting.
But the sentiment that TPM is a waste of time in the overall movie mirrors exactly my feelings when many years ago as a wee lad I had a long think about how to redo TPM and that was the only time I actually took notes of such brainstorming.
And funny enough the story beats I came up with were extremely similar to Force Awakens. When I was watching it I was like, did they read my notes? I didn't have a full story treatment, but some elements particularly rang familiar:
I was gonna start with Obi wan on some sort of mission in the outer rim. He bumps into a fleet of clones preparing for attacking the Republic led by a Sith like guy. He is taken captive but then manages to escape and crashes on Tatooine. Bumps into an adult Anakin, who is a pilot, while being hunted. Anakin refuses to take him to a safe planet where he can report back on the clone army because Obi wan has no money but they are ambushed so they have to flee, there's a scene similar to the Falcon chase where Anakin pilots and Obi wan mans the guns, demonstration of insane piloting skills, bonding, Anakin sees the might of the clone army, change of heart, etc. And in the end when Obi wan is knocked unconscious Anakin fights the Sith bloke and overpowers him when he fights out of anger and aggression...
Not claiming to be original or anything, but was very interesting to see similar scenarios on screen. I didn't have a planet destroying ball though that can be blown up by destroying the heat exchange system nor a little droid carrying important plans...:D

This right here is a perfect example of how things could have been handled differently. You yourself said you don't think you're a strong writer but even still you came up with something that is more compelling than what we got.

Ultimately the films are finished and canonized but it proves that just because those are the ones we got doesn't mean it was the only way they could have been told.
 
[Vader] was evil. Simple.

But then, how is he redeemed in ROTJ? (I'm talking strictly OT, before the prequels fleshed anything else out)

Ultimately the films are finished and canonized but it proves that just because those are the ones we got doesn't mean it was the only way they could have been told.

Absolutely. Like I've said, just because I was able to enjoy the ST doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that several balls were dropped.
 
I really do not like the word redeemed in regards to vader. Redeem would imply he's now a good guy again. I'm sorry, but after everything he did, you don't get to save your own kid and kill the emperor and get to be a good guy. You don't. You can reject your past, accept responsibility, etc, but 30 minutes of good doesn't cover 30 years of evil.
 
I really do not like the word redeemed in regards to vader. Redeem would imply he's now a good guy again. I'm sorry, but after everything he did, you don't get to save your own kid and kill the emperor and get to be a good guy. You don't. You can reject your past, accept responsibility, etc, but 30 minutes of good doesn't cover 30 years of evil.
Which is why he had to die instead of getting a full on white suit and join up with Leia, Mon Mothma and Ackbar running the New Republic... :lol: I think one of the EU novels actually has a scene of Leia telling Anakin's force ghost to go eat a bag of d@cks, he's not suddenly a good guy.
It was the same with Kylo, when he killed Han Solo I knew instantly that he would be dead by the end of the trilogy, change of heart or not. I still wish my expectations were subverted on that...
 
I really do not like the word redeemed in regards to vader. Redeem would imply he's now a good guy again. I'm sorry, but after everything he did, you don't get to save your own kid and kill the emperor and get to be a good guy. You don't. You can reject your past, accept responsibility, etc, but 30 minutes of good doesn't cover 30 years of evil.
That's not what "redeem" means, though.

Either way, I don't subscribe to the idea that the entire galaxy forgave him, but the redemptive, self-sacrificial act justified Luke's belief that there was "still good in him." We, the audience, joined Luke in that sentiment because prior to the prequels happening, Vader wasn't necessarily a child murderer. So, in the context of this space fantasy we love so much, we wanted to believe that destroying the Emperor and saving his son at the cost of his own life maybe did absolve him of his, as yet undefined, dirty deeds.
 
One issue I do have, are all the comics and literature that we have a Darth Vader that is tormented emotionally.

I really hate that. The Sith are supposed to be consumed with the Dark Side. Their hatred feeding off each other in sense. He turned evil for whatever big baby reasons, but he did nonetheless. All this tormented "padme" stuff and lamenting of Darth Vader really diminishes his Character. From when he turned to when he started to falter AFTER learning about Luke, he should be nothing but pure evil. None of this grey emotional *********.

I knooooooow people want stories that are deeper, but not everything is or should be. He was evil. Simple.

I like Vader even more. He was a slave, then freed, then became a slave again. I don't know how you don't think he's not evil enough because he helped BLOW UP A PLANET. If he was as evil as you think, learning he had a son, or daughter, wouldn't have done anything. He would have killed them without a thought.
 
Which is why the self contained nature of the three films works because Vader's redemption is the vehicle which ultimately helps Luke be victorious over his flaws and in the end defeats evil. If you were to disregard the PT for a moment and just watch the OT, the meaning of Vader's redemption is ironically more about whether Luke did the right thing in refusing to kill his father.

The addition of the prequels, while not bad in theory, truly muddies the waters because now the focus is about Anakin and him killing the Emperor and less about Luke's victory.

When George gave Anakin such a cosmically significant role in the Star Wars world so much so that he was the fulfillment of a Prophecy, it created the meta narrative that JJ ran with in TFA. So as much as we blame JJ for making Star Wars self aware, George was just as guilty, though to a far lesser extent.

Like Red Letter Media said in their prequel reviews, Anakin was only meaningful to the characters in a GFFA because we the audience know who Vader is and he's world famous, because aside from a LOT of filler, everything centered around getting Anakin into that suit by the end of Ep.III
 
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I like Vader even more. He was a slave, then freed, then became a slave again. I don't know how you don't think he's not evil enough because he helped BLOW UP A PLANET. If he was as evil as you think, learning he had a son, or daughter, wouldn't have done anything. He would have killed them without a thought.

We seem to agree mostly. It's just the comics I'm referring to that's been trying to humanize him. But to symbolically or literally refer to him as a slave is something I can't agree with. He made the choices. He had influences of good and bad, and he chooses bad. He embraced the dark side willingly. Saying he became a slave again, is just making excuses for what he became.

And that's what the comics have exactly turned it into. The stories have gone out of their way to show us such a tortured soul and humanize the machine of evil he really is and should remain. That's EXACTLY what makes his redemption far more powerful in RTOJ.
 
I read Star Wars and Alien 1-2-3 novelizations from Alan Dean Foster. Always found them to be cheap and weak pieces. I mostly attributed this to the fact that a script is for a movie which is an audio-visual medium and simply telling what happens on screen in writing is not literature even in the pulp sense i kinda tried to reserve judgement on AFD as I never read any of his own stories but glad that it's finally got cleared up for me. Long video but it's honestly worth it, I don't remember the last time I laughed that much.

 
That's not what "redeem" means, though.

Either way, I don't subscribe to the idea that the entire galaxy forgave him, but the redemptive, self-sacrificial act justified Luke's belief that there was "still good in him." We, the audience, joined Luke in that sentiment because prior to the prequels happening, Vader wasn't necessarily a child murderer. So, in the context of this space fantasy we love so much, we wanted to believe that destroying the Emperor and saving his son at the cost of his own life maybe did absolve him of his, as yet undefined, dirty deeds.

I'd call him complicit in the destruction of Alderaan which had to have had hundreds of millions of kids since Obi Wan said a billions of souls just cried out and were silenced.
 
Anakin was redeemed in Luke's eyes. It doesn't mean the rest of the characters felt the same. No one witnessed the final confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor. They were the only characters present. Even the Imperial guards were dismissed the moment Luke arrived in the throne room.

The whole idea was that Luke was the one good thing Vader did in his life. I'm sure a lot of parents feel that way about themselves and their children. They may have lived selfish horrible lives but if their kids turned out to be decent human beings, in that sense they at least succeeded in that one respect. Redemption isn't about being blameless. It's about owning your mistakes and trying to do the right thing. Vader did die saving Luke in the process. It's not like he lived and Luke brought him back to the rebels and everyone was cool with Vader all of a sudden.
 
Anakin was redeemed in Luke's eyes.
...

The whole idea was that Luke was the one good thing Vader did in his life. I'm sure a lot of parents feel that way about themselves and their children. They may have lived selfish horrible lives but if their kids turned out to be decent human beings, in that sense they at least succeeded in that one respect.

 
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