Lets talk all things Star Wars
- Status
ghostryder
Legendary Member
As I work on my Falcon model, re-listening to all the Star Wars soundtracks, as its been awhile. (1-6 and on Empire right now. Maybe 7....)
On the Ep. II track, Confrontation with Count Dooku and Finale. I remember listening to the whole soundtrack about a week or so before Ep. II hit theaters. So on this track, at the 3 min mark, Vader's theme plays and was the first main time to hear it like that and not just a small hint of the theme since Return of the Jedi. So of course, knowing that everything was leading up to Anakin turning to the dark side, I figured something major was happening during that part, but more with Vader.
Of course it ended up showing the clone army and how massive it was with Palatine there at the center of it all.
Wondering if anyone else did the same and listened to the soundtracks before seeing the movie and if you had any thoughts or ideas of what a scene might have been just listening to it....and then how the scene actually ended up.
On the Ep. II track, Confrontation with Count Dooku and Finale. I remember listening to the whole soundtrack about a week or so before Ep. II hit theaters. So on this track, at the 3 min mark, Vader's theme plays and was the first main time to hear it like that and not just a small hint of the theme since Return of the Jedi. So of course, knowing that everything was leading up to Anakin turning to the dark side, I figured something major was happening during that part, but more with Vader.
Of course it ended up showing the clone army and how massive it was with Palatine there at the center of it all.
Wondering if anyone else did the same and listened to the soundtracks before seeing the movie and if you had any thoughts or ideas of what a scene might have been just listening to it....and then how the scene actually ended up.
I have been frustrated with John Williams for a long time (and I'll be honest, I don't know how much was him acquiescing to George's instructions for particular cues) seemingly forgetting that that cue on the ESB score is "Darth Vader's Theme (Imperial March)". It's not the music for the Empire -- it's the music for Vader and the forces under his command. And that's not even getting into its use with Anakin for foreshadowing. George borked that reveal in the worst way (same with Yoda and the Skywalker twins). The Emperor's Theme is a better candidate for an "Imperial" cue, and I love that the celebration music at the end of TPM is an up-tempo, major-key version of that. Republic to Empire. Perfect.
I can understand why, but it bugs me that he used the same cue for the attack of the battle droids on Naboo at the climax of TPM... and for the reveal of the clone army on Kamino in AOTC. Yes, I get that it's to underscore that these are, essentially, "living droids". Disposable cannon fodder. But the rule of leitmotif is to know who is who from the music cues, and if the good guys and bad guys have the same cue, that's sloppy.
I've always felt the "Rebel Fanfare" should be a portion of a Republic anthem, since the Rebels are trying to restore the Republic. I'd love to see some student of Williams' work take the celebration music from TPM and the Rebel Fanfare and orchestrate an "Anthem of the Galactic Republic". Failing that, since hers is the Alderaanian cell of the Rebellion, it could be a portion of the royal anthem of Alderaan or some such. That would also add to the plausible deniability of Leia's cover story.
There are other problems, due to George's original intention to one-and-done it with Star Wars. Luke's theme is the overall theme for the series. "The Force Theme" would maybe have been as closely associated with Obi-Wan if George had done the Prequels right. I'm envisioning the episodes From the Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi starting with that same "STAR WARS" receding into the screen, but with something like one of Williams' more bombastic renditions of the Force Theme -- maybe the version from the award ceremony...
The music in Star Wars is a crucial, essentially integrated element of what makes Star Wars Star Wars, and special. So yeah, I've thought a lot about it over the years. *lol*
I can understand why, but it bugs me that he used the same cue for the attack of the battle droids on Naboo at the climax of TPM... and for the reveal of the clone army on Kamino in AOTC. Yes, I get that it's to underscore that these are, essentially, "living droids". Disposable cannon fodder. But the rule of leitmotif is to know who is who from the music cues, and if the good guys and bad guys have the same cue, that's sloppy.
I've always felt the "Rebel Fanfare" should be a portion of a Republic anthem, since the Rebels are trying to restore the Republic. I'd love to see some student of Williams' work take the celebration music from TPM and the Rebel Fanfare and orchestrate an "Anthem of the Galactic Republic". Failing that, since hers is the Alderaanian cell of the Rebellion, it could be a portion of the royal anthem of Alderaan or some such. That would also add to the plausible deniability of Leia's cover story.
There are other problems, due to George's original intention to one-and-done it with Star Wars. Luke's theme is the overall theme for the series. "The Force Theme" would maybe have been as closely associated with Obi-Wan if George had done the Prequels right. I'm envisioning the episodes From the Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi starting with that same "STAR WARS" receding into the screen, but with something like one of Williams' more bombastic renditions of the Force Theme -- maybe the version from the award ceremony...
The music in Star Wars is a crucial, essentially integrated element of what makes Star Wars Star Wars, and special. So yeah, I've thought a lot about it over the years. *lol*
Joek3rr
Master Member
Like the story itself. It all gets recontextualized by a later installment.
Darth Vader's theme, as you said, is also called the Imperial March. So there is a loose association with the Empire. We first hear it as the probe droids are being launched, from the Star Destroyer. So there is an association with Imperial forces, particularly Star Destroyers. In ROTJ, we hear for Vader's arrival, which makes sense. But then we hear it, very bombastically, for the when the Emperor arrives. So again, even then, it has a slightly broader use. In AOTC, I really don't mind it's usage for what amounts to stromteoopers and star destroyers. I do find it's use in the Senate chambers duel to be odd, though.
Yeah using the Trade Federation march for the clones is an odd choice. I wonder if it wasn't out of necessity. George dragged his feet on writing the film, so they were under a horrible time crunch.
The recontextualization of Luke's theme, is so fascinating. It's so strange to think how that's become the theme of the Saga now. And it's use for the Jedi doing, or heck anyone doing something particularly heroic. The Force Theme too. It plays for both when the "divine" nature of the Force is at play. And also for Obi-Wan. Most notably there are two very wonderful variations in ROTS, for Obi-Wan.
Joek3rr
Master Member
The only soundtrack I listened to before the film was TLJ. And the only thing given away was Yoda's theme. And yeah that kinda sorta played out like you would imagine.
Rawktrooper
Well-Known Member
I have all the soundtracks up to the Disney ownership movies. I have not listened to any of the new ones. I used to listen to the old soundtracks all the time, but lately i have not been interested enough to look for them. I will make it a point to find the Rogue One and Solo soundtracks for my next roadtrip, since i do like those films quite a lot but have not just listened to the music at all to be able to think about it outide the films.
One thing I wish the soundtrack albums had was when cues would get chopped up and remixed in the final edit. "The Emperor's Arrival" in the film is a splice of two of the recorded cues. One has to have editing software and be somewhat skilled at using it to recreate that -- and even then it's not on the album, if one is listening to the physical media (which I still do more often than not, at this point).
And Rawktrooper, I love Solo. One reason is the score. It works very well with the visuals. I think that's currently the one I listen to the most after Star Wars and Empire, and kinda tied with Jedi.
And Rawktrooper, I love Solo. One reason is the score. It works very well with the visuals. I think that's currently the one I listen to the most after Star Wars and Empire, and kinda tied with Jedi.
I'm-a interrupt you here. No? It's not in that scene, or accompanying the probe droid to Hoth... The very first appearance of that sequence of musical notes is right after the probe droid self-destructs and Our Heroes™ realize the Empire knows where they are now. General Rieekan gives the evacuation order, and we wipe to a bunch of Star Destroyers and that music and the Star Destroyers are getting overshadowed by something massive and it's revealed a bit in that it's Vader's flagship. I first saw Empire a few months shy of my sixth birthday and that moment has always stuck with me. This is Vader's first appearance in the film, and it's a nice, dramatic debut of his new theme.
We hear it as we see the parade of TIEs and all the troops waiting at attention -- that Vader has arranged for his master's arrival. He (and Jerjerrod) steps up to take his place to wait... and the music changes as the shuttle ramp drops and the Emperor's guards come down, and then his theme starts.
Given that, at this point, we're supposed to still believe those are the good guys, it is objectively inappropriate. A better approach would have been something like... Take the TPM celebration music, rescore it to be more militaristic and bombastic -- a march instead of a street dance... and then have it shift from major to minor key partway through.
My two favorite versions of that cue are: The first appearance of it, when Old Ben rescues Luke and Luke mentions that name. The lone oboe is a very effective choice there... And the award ceremony at the end of Star Wars. Very different feels. I love how that can be done, with music. Heck, my two favorite versions of Vader's Theme are when he's putting the smackdown on Luke under the carbon-freezing chamber... and when he dies. Couldn't be more different.
Joek3rr
Master Member
It's there. Up high in the woodwinds I believe. 0:08.
Well I think that's the point. George rather heavy handedly telling the audience, that Republic has basically transformed at this point. Maybe. I don't know if it was George's or John's idea.
Joek3rr
Master Member
It's there
See my post above.
Nope. Check it against the movie. Very different.
Also nope, but more compound nope. That's still not the version that's in the film. And I've listened to that video as loud as I can tolerate about twenty times through, to where I can start mentally filtering out the stuff in the foreground. There is nothing I can hear in there -- from any instrument -- that matches Darth Vader's Theme for more than a couple notes probably by accident. There's nothing in the sheet music for that cue that matches up, either.
Oh, I get it. It's still wrong for the scene, but I get it. There's heavy-handed, there's beating the audience over the head with it, and then there's beating the audience over the head with the wrong but familiar thing so they can't help but get the point.
Oop. You're right, you're right. I forget about that one, it's so brief and easy to lose amidst the firefight.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Haha I knew I should have listened to them both. Yeah very different.
Yep it's there. I only found out about when listening to David W Collins' The Soundtrack Show. He talks about it at 26:00
Lol
Jeez, that is buried in there. Yeah, I'd say that doesn't count, as it's one phrase far in the background and all the low notes disappear in the rest of what's going on. It's, ironically, more audible in the actual film, and now I'll never be able to un-hear it.
Okay, so you win on the point that an out-of-context phrase from Darth Vader's new Theme is mixed into the orchestration of one of his ships launching probe droids, but I'll stand by that not being a foreground use of Darth Vader's Theme.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Yeah it barley counts. More a nerdy, 'betcha didn't know!' kinda thing.
Interesting to note that The Imperial March was temp tracked from the very beginning in Episode II. So definitely a George decision.
Jodo
Master Member
One Star Wars topic that has been on my mind lately is the Imperial Army.
In a lot of EU content, the army troopers wore what were effectively the grey AT-ST pilot uniforms, with a cuirass. In newer media, the army troopers are shown with green uniforms with varying armor (such as the Mudtroopers in Solo and the Aldani soliders in Andor).
The two aspects that I can’t stop considering are:
1 - Why would the AT-ST pilot uniform ever be synonymous with army infantry? We only see them in walkers or at the Emperor’s arrival formation. As a kid, I only ever assumed those were dedicated walker pilots. There’s no indication they’re army.
2 - If the army is so wide spread, why is the Stormtrooper Corp so front and center, even shown as the occupation force in Mos Eisley?
Everything that I have read seems to indicate the Stormtroopers were the “fanatical elites” within the regime, where people were selected or recruited. Meanwhile, the army served more as a conscripted occupying force that manned established bases (as in Andor). Yet in Solo, we see the Army, along side Stormtroopers, no less) waging trench warfare on Mimban?
It seems the cannon idea of the army changed between Solo and Andor. I also think most lay people would assume the Stormtrooper Corp WAS the imperial army, let alone have a distinction between the naval forces.
I think the in universe excuse could be that Palpatine purposefully wanted the convoluted and un-siloed system, but it just seems weird, overall. You have army, navy, and stormtroopers, all of which have similar roles that are integrated into pretty much every area of Star Wars content.
Edit: Forgot to mention there are two green fatigue wearing imperials aboard the Death Star, who actually better match the Andor army soldiers…
In a lot of EU content, the army troopers wore what were effectively the grey AT-ST pilot uniforms, with a cuirass. In newer media, the army troopers are shown with green uniforms with varying armor (such as the Mudtroopers in Solo and the Aldani soliders in Andor).
The two aspects that I can’t stop considering are:
1 - Why would the AT-ST pilot uniform ever be synonymous with army infantry? We only see them in walkers or at the Emperor’s arrival formation. As a kid, I only ever assumed those were dedicated walker pilots. There’s no indication they’re army.
2 - If the army is so wide spread, why is the Stormtrooper Corp so front and center, even shown as the occupation force in Mos Eisley?
Everything that I have read seems to indicate the Stormtroopers were the “fanatical elites” within the regime, where people were selected or recruited. Meanwhile, the army served more as a conscripted occupying force that manned established bases (as in Andor). Yet in Solo, we see the Army, along side Stormtroopers, no less) waging trench warfare on Mimban?
It seems the cannon idea of the army changed between Solo and Andor. I also think most lay people would assume the Stormtrooper Corp WAS the imperial army, let alone have a distinction between the naval forces.
I think the in universe excuse could be that Palpatine purposefully wanted the convoluted and un-siloed system, but it just seems weird, overall. You have army, navy, and stormtroopers, all of which have similar roles that are integrated into pretty much every area of Star Wars content.
Edit: Forgot to mention there are two green fatigue wearing imperials aboard the Death Star, who actually better match the Andor army soldiers…
Joek3rr
Master Member
And before that General Veers and the Snowtroopers.
Since it's a special operation. And they are from Vader's Star Destroyer. I can't recall if there was a local garrison on Tatooine. I think there was. They would probably have regular army troopers.
To use the analogy of the German military in WW2. Stormtroopers are basically SS units. While the Imperial Army is the Wehrmacht. It seems like Mimban had become a real slog. So they started deploying the regulars, to add to the numbers.
First, we can't look to the Prequels for any solid indication of what was in Goerge's notes for the before-time. All we can do now is try to rationalize. I personally feel like the Grand Army of the Republic was a bad name for him to use. That was a politically-reactionary Civil War veterans' organization in the US in the 1870s. The numbers of clones and the breadth they were spread across, they were basically highly-trained shock troops (Marines, if you will), meant to hold the Separatists back until volunteers got through training in enough numbers to form a proper Republic military, since the Judicial Forces intentionally didn't exist in sufficient numbers to be a soldiery. There are implications various planetary and system defense forces were folded into Republic forces.
Originally, though, all we had was the visual storytelling through John Mollo's and Ralph McQuarrie's costumes. The Stormtroopers were still evidently shock troops, used for boarding actions, beachheads, and guarding military installations -- like the Marines. The black uniforms were seen closely associated with Vader and represented some form of special troops apart from the steingrau uniforms of people like Motti and Tarkin. What makes the most sense to me is that those are the Stormtroopers' garrison uniforms. Vader tells Praji to "see to it personally", but we don't see anyone in a black uniform down on Tatooine. He might be staying in the A/C aboard a combat vehicle off-screen while the guys in battle armor comb the desert, but various other things in that film and later ancillary material (Shadow Stormtroopers) lead me to black = Stormtrooper soft uniforms, with white battle armor to start, switching to black with advanced training/veteran status.
Those steingrau uniforms (and, I'll argue, the more clearly green, single-breasted uniforms seen briefly aboard the Death Star) fit best as the regular uniform of the Imperial Starfleet, being a combined army-navy service (starships can't take and hold planets, and troops are useless without a way to cross interstellar distances), the distinction being rank insignia. We see "army" in Star Wars, and "navy" in Empire. Jedi is an Imperial-rank nightmare, and should be ignored in that regard. The "mud troopers" in Solo are also of this branch of service. Regardless of retroactive in-universe evolution of the helmet and cuirass between Solo and Empire, those elements are consistent. The single-breasted uniforms are likely fatigues, to the placketed "class A" uniform. I was absolutely thrilled when we saw the blue uniforms of the Judiciary pilots in TPM. Han was always heavily, heavily implied to be an ex-Imperial pilot/officer. His pants looked like something military. And his jacket in Empire was the same color. If blue shifted to olive-ish green as Republic gave way to Empire, that would be some good visual storytelling, his being an older version of the single-breasted, straight-legged green uniforms on the Death Star. But then Trish Biggar had to screw that up with the horrible continuity-breaking ROTS Imperial uniforms that I do my best to pretend don't exist.
The light gray uniforms are always seen in some technical capacity. Comms, scanner techs, armored-vehicle drivers...
I've maintained for years that if a uniform isn't uniform, it isn't a uniform. The colors have to represent something. The differences in rank insignia have to represent something. The hard-armor styling differences (Stormtrooper versus Veers) have to represent something. They didn't give Veers an open kabuto helmet, like the Death Star guards or Leia's Senatorial escort. They didn't give him a Stormtrooper cuirass and faceless Stormtrooper helmet to mirror his drivers. Interestingly, the Snowtroopers have the same armor and helmet he does. I've argued that the TIE pilots in Star Wars and the walker drivers in Empire are Stormtroopers, else they wouldn't have the helmets and armor of Stormtroopers. More recently, after Solo, I've come to feel the Snowtroopers are Starfleet infantry in cold-weather gear. We had arguments pages and pages back in this thread about different types of cold and whether Stormtrooper armor being wearable for extended periods in hard vacuum made it usable in warmer subfreezing temperatures.
With the advent of Rogue One and Solo, I opine that the tank crews, Death Troopers, and Shore Troopers in Rogue One, and the Range Troopers and Patrol Trooper in Solo, are ISB. They've always maintained themselves separate from the rest of the Imperial forces, have their own similar-but-different uniforms, so it works to have them maintain their own matériel chain for the enforcement troops under their directorate. And the tank crew helmets and armor do look a lot like what Kallus had in Rebels...
So yeah, all that to say: Veers, Mud Troopers, Snowtroopers, and the ROTJ AT-ST crew are Imperial Starfleet Infantry, being the rough equivalent to the Army; OT TIE pilots and AT-AT drivers, Death Star guards and gunners, the folks in black uniforms, and the good old white battle armor are Stormtroopers, being Marines; light gray techs and armored-vehicle drivers, regardless if infantry or Stormtrooper, are a sort of technical/combat-engineer branch overlapping the other two; and the ISB do their own thing.
Originally, though, all we had was the visual storytelling through John Mollo's and Ralph McQuarrie's costumes. The Stormtroopers were still evidently shock troops, used for boarding actions, beachheads, and guarding military installations -- like the Marines. The black uniforms were seen closely associated with Vader and represented some form of special troops apart from the steingrau uniforms of people like Motti and Tarkin. What makes the most sense to me is that those are the Stormtroopers' garrison uniforms. Vader tells Praji to "see to it personally", but we don't see anyone in a black uniform down on Tatooine. He might be staying in the A/C aboard a combat vehicle off-screen while the guys in battle armor comb the desert, but various other things in that film and later ancillary material (Shadow Stormtroopers) lead me to black = Stormtrooper soft uniforms, with white battle armor to start, switching to black with advanced training/veteran status.
Those steingrau uniforms (and, I'll argue, the more clearly green, single-breasted uniforms seen briefly aboard the Death Star) fit best as the regular uniform of the Imperial Starfleet, being a combined army-navy service (starships can't take and hold planets, and troops are useless without a way to cross interstellar distances), the distinction being rank insignia. We see "army" in Star Wars, and "navy" in Empire. Jedi is an Imperial-rank nightmare, and should be ignored in that regard. The "mud troopers" in Solo are also of this branch of service. Regardless of retroactive in-universe evolution of the helmet and cuirass between Solo and Empire, those elements are consistent. The single-breasted uniforms are likely fatigues, to the placketed "class A" uniform. I was absolutely thrilled when we saw the blue uniforms of the Judiciary pilots in TPM. Han was always heavily, heavily implied to be an ex-Imperial pilot/officer. His pants looked like something military. And his jacket in Empire was the same color. If blue shifted to olive-ish green as Republic gave way to Empire, that would be some good visual storytelling, his being an older version of the single-breasted, straight-legged green uniforms on the Death Star. But then Trish Biggar had to screw that up with the horrible continuity-breaking ROTS Imperial uniforms that I do my best to pretend don't exist.
The light gray uniforms are always seen in some technical capacity. Comms, scanner techs, armored-vehicle drivers...
I've maintained for years that if a uniform isn't uniform, it isn't a uniform. The colors have to represent something. The differences in rank insignia have to represent something. The hard-armor styling differences (Stormtrooper versus Veers) have to represent something. They didn't give Veers an open kabuto helmet, like the Death Star guards or Leia's Senatorial escort. They didn't give him a Stormtrooper cuirass and faceless Stormtrooper helmet to mirror his drivers. Interestingly, the Snowtroopers have the same armor and helmet he does. I've argued that the TIE pilots in Star Wars and the walker drivers in Empire are Stormtroopers, else they wouldn't have the helmets and armor of Stormtroopers. More recently, after Solo, I've come to feel the Snowtroopers are Starfleet infantry in cold-weather gear. We had arguments pages and pages back in this thread about different types of cold and whether Stormtrooper armor being wearable for extended periods in hard vacuum made it usable in warmer subfreezing temperatures.
With the advent of Rogue One and Solo, I opine that the tank crews, Death Troopers, and Shore Troopers in Rogue One, and the Range Troopers and Patrol Trooper in Solo, are ISB. They've always maintained themselves separate from the rest of the Imperial forces, have their own similar-but-different uniforms, so it works to have them maintain their own matériel chain for the enforcement troops under their directorate. And the tank crew helmets and armor do look a lot like what Kallus had in Rebels...
So yeah, all that to say: Veers, Mud Troopers, Snowtroopers, and the ROTJ AT-ST crew are Imperial Starfleet Infantry, being the rough equivalent to the Army; OT TIE pilots and AT-AT drivers, Death Star guards and gunners, the folks in black uniforms, and the good old white battle armor are Stormtroopers, being Marines; light gray techs and armored-vehicle drivers, regardless if infantry or Stormtrooper, are a sort of technical/combat-engineer branch overlapping the other two; and the ISB do their own thing.
Rawktrooper
Well-Known Member
That sounds somewhat similar to what I remember we had discussed a while ago at a 501st command campout back a decade ago or so..
It started because someone wanted to wear a pauldron with another uniform and a huge discussion ensued.
It all came down to the same as what you said, a uniform isnt a uniform unless its uniform. I think i paraphrased that.
Somebody will have to make a chart one of these days. We never really did.
Nice work!
- Status
Similar threads
