Lets talk all things Star Wars
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If you mean ROTJ, that's always bugged me. Lando says, "Red Group, Gold Group -- all ships, follow me." And the only ones who join up with him are three X-Wings, two A-Wings, and a Y-Wing. The Y-Wing is most likely the same Red 2 from earlier. One of the A-Wings is Red 3/Green Leader, because we see the same actor acknowledging the order to return to the surface... Basically, there's no reason to think any of the ships that go in are in Gold. I'll address the visual storytelling below.
Why not? They're about the same length that the Falcon is wide.
Anyway. The visual storytelling of ROTJ... Piecing together the Battle of Endor is very frustrating. First of all, this "assembled" Rebel fleet never has more than twenty-four fighters onscreen in a single shot ("Break off the attack -- the shields are still up!"). The subsequent shot shows none of the ships from the previous shot, but a smattering of the stragglers deflecting to right and left to avoid the shield (including a fifth B-Wing in addition to the below). The number that jumped to lightspeed behind the Falcon was only twenty. Many shots are consistent, though, from angle to angle, and for a given amount of context. All the while the Flacon is zipping through the fleet to take point, it's escorted by five X-Wings, three B-Wings, and, as we see a bit more of the tail of its escort each time, two A-Wings and two Y-Wings. Those are the ships that jump out immediately after the Falcon (although now four B-Wings), then, after the two A-Wings and two Y-Wings, a bunch of added A- and Y-Wings to bulk out the shot.
I have found myself wondering more and more whether there were more fighters further back, but Rogue Group was taking the lead on making the run on the new Death Star's main reactor, and the others would come in if they failed. Because of the heavy-assault role Gold plays, it makes sense that the Falcon is Gold 1 (note also the fixed-forward heavy blaster cannons she's fitted with for the battle -- same effect that gets used on the reactor, hence my dismissing the EU's "concussion missiles"), and I attribute the B-Wings (three or four or five) to Gold, as well. The only major marking is the light orange circles, which could very easily be also a "dark yellow" -- or "gold". Makes more sense, to me, than making them Blue Group, when they have no blue markings on them anywhere.
Wedge's rôle seems to be having half his squadron flying cover for Gold Leader. They're hugging the Falcon for most of the furball. I feel like the five fighters that formed up when Lando called for all of Red and Gold to follow him in were the rest of his Red escort (after one A-Wing got piffed), and, if the models had worked the way they were supposed to, some or all of the B-Wings might have gone in, too. As I said in the post you quoted, Red 2 is Gray Leader (same actor in the same helmet, anyway), and Red 3 is Green Leader (ditto), so I blot the call-in scene out of my head. It is Red 3 who makes the suicide run on the Executor's bridge, for instance, after Lando ordered the other ships to split off and head back to the surface.
My best take from everything in the films is that, at Scarif, Gold was reduced to about half-strength, and then, at Yavin, to zero. Red lost one at Scarif, with others damaged, and eight more at Yavin, leaving three (two damaged). Post-Yavin, as they rebuilt the Group, per Rebels, they had access to A-Wings and the B-Wing prototype. By Endor, Red seems to consist of five X-Wings, five A-Wings, and two Y-Wings. Gold, 3-5 B-Wings. There are five B-Wing pilots in the briefing scene, so I am inclined to go with the maximum implied onscreen number. (Further, the briefing has a bunch of commandos to one side and pilots on the other and the upper deck. I count about fifteen pilots reliably. We may be looking at a briefing of just Gold and Red Squadrons of Rogue Group and the commando team. Besides the five B-Wing pilots, there are five X-Wing pilots, three A-Wing pilots, and one Y-Wing pilot (that I can concretely nail down.)
Also, since a lot of material has Nien Nunb also being a B-Wing pilot, I have a notion that some of the squadron's strength went into crewing the Falcon. And since the one we saw in Rebels was a two-person ship, maybe there are six total, five flew in the battle with just the pilots, and the other seven members of the Squadron were with Lando. That's just speculation, but informed speculation.
Enh. I can accept them as being there, but not being shown. In Star Wars, of the "thirty Rebel ships", we see or know about eleven in Red and three in Gold (though there are probably twice that, give or take). If there's a full-strength Blue that isn't down near the surface where the camera is, that helps the numbers make sense. That brings us to twenty-six -- hence my sticking the unknowns into Gold, to bump them to seven ships. The built the one Red Squadron X-Wing cockpit and the one Gold Squadron Y-Wing cockpit, so we can't go by those as a solid indicator of who was getting in what squadrons' ships, but a lot of them had the blue crests on their helmets. I need to go back and re-count how many.
But for Star Wars, prior to the blue-screen issue, and in Rogue One, the Blue fighters had blue markings. Neither of the two B-Wing miniatures built have any blue on them. Since Blue seems to be high cover and ground-assault, I don't know they'd have much to do at Endor beyond hanging back to protect the capital ships, along with the fighters of any other Groups hopefully present at this massing of the Rebel fleet...
No. As with the two B-Wing miniatures representing more than that number of ships, just as the various X- and Y-Wing miniatures actually built for Star Wars are used to represent ships other than the ones they're decorated as (such as the shot where two Red 5s are flying with Red Leader), the random Y-Wing flying away from the Death Star with Luke and Wedge and Han is just one of the yellow-painted ones built for Gold, but the actual ship represented by that miniature was destroyed by Vader in the first trench run, so it can't be that ship.
Since it has to be representing a different one, and since an otherwise-unseen ship from Red makes sense, and since Red Seven is in the script but no X-Wing model was decoed as such, I mentally overlay a "finished" Red Jammer on that ship and give it that callsign. The other unseen ship is Red 9, and Analyzer made the call to use the Red 3 pyro model as it, with the stripes fudged as three short ones against the full row of six behind to still have the same approximate look. That way we have the full extant Squadron indicated through dialogue, script, and actors/miniatures. Eleven ships, no Red 8.
In Star Wars, all the "X planes" were Blue then Red, and all the "Y planes" were Red then Gold. Fine and dandy. ROTJ breaks that, all the way back in '83, due to the choreography of the battle and which pilot takes were used where. Whatever ships besides the Falcon might be in Gold, Red consists of, per onscreen evidence, at least a mix of X-, Y-, and A-Wings. The Republic and Imperial military almost-certainly does the single-craft-type-per-unit thing, as in the real world, but the Rebellion didn't have the option to be that choosy. ILM's interior chart showed the X-Wing, Y-Wing, and TIE Fighters to all have the same speed, so that isn't the factor the RPG and video games made it to be. I have no idea where the "slow and clumsy" thing got hung on the Y-Wings.
Also, in ROTJ, the Falcon is leading the assault, so the other ships have to match speed with her. They all seemed to be able to keep up just fine. And in Rogue One, Blue consisted of U-Wings and the X-Wings who protected them, and that makes a certain amount of sense, too. The Rebels' organization and logistical straits require them to be more flexible in their approach. I have notions the unseen Blue Squadron in Star Wars consisted of some X- and Y-Wings, per the shots of pilots climbing into the setpieces, but filled out with a couple Z-95s, U-Wings there, too, not just in Merrick's Group -- possibly even a Clone Wars-vintage BTL-B Y-Wing or an ARC-170 or something.
One of the first things the New Republic Navy likely did was regulate and codify the starfighter units to be single-craft-type again.
Analyzer
Master Member
That all makes sense to me and seems most plausible given what we have to work with
I assumed that Rogue One meant to show Blue Squadron being wiped out, and it is possible that Red 2, originally painted as Blue Leader might have been a left over X-Wing move into Red.
I think you are definitely correct that there are a lot more ships in the battle, we just aren't following their missions on screen
When I was young I never really thought about it much, but the scale of the Battle of Yavin depicted in the movie is actually very sparse. 3 or four Tie Fighters and less than a dozen X-Wings.
Sure it was a surgical strike, but there definitely had to be more going on elsewhere and a lot more ships
Obviously with ILM being under time/budget constraints they did what they could and consistency went out the window in favor of getting certain shots/deadlines.
Of all the things that got cleaned up in the various special editions and retouching, you would think they might have fixed those issues. Instead George made all X-Wings "Red 2" skins in most shots
I assumed that Rogue One meant to show Blue Squadron being wiped out, and it is possible that Red 2, originally painted as Blue Leader might have been a left over X-Wing move into Red.
I think you are definitely correct that there are a lot more ships in the battle, we just aren't following their missions on screen
When I was young I never really thought about it much, but the scale of the Battle of Yavin depicted in the movie is actually very sparse. 3 or four Tie Fighters and less than a dozen X-Wings.
Sure it was a surgical strike, but there definitely had to be more going on elsewhere and a lot more ships
Obviously with ILM being under time/budget constraints they did what they could and consistency went out the window in favor of getting certain shots/deadlines.
Of all the things that got cleaned up in the various special editions and retouching, you would think they might have fixed those issues. Instead George made all X-Wings "Red 2" skins in most shots
Joek3rr
Master Member
This is green leader. Known as Arvel Crynyd in the EU.
This is Red 3. He is a she. Dubbed by a man. Known as Sila Kott in the EU.
Then this the last A-wing pilot. In the EU he was Jake Farrell.
Yeah I thought about that after I replied. They just seem so awkward for that job. Though, looking at the shots. Is the Falcon a little under scaled?
I'm not sure how many filming models of the B-wings they made. I think two. Anyways at least one has orange circles. They both have blue/grey markings. To my eyes it looks like the same color that they used for the TIEs. The one without the circles I think they filmed most of the shots with. Not saying that means anything. Just something I noticed the other day. And if you have the Blu Ray or digital editions of the films, there's a nice 360 video showing off the B-wing model.
They created a new character for that B-wings pilot, Ten Numb. Based partially on preproduction photos of a Sullustan in a white suit.
In the EU, and the current continuity they've always had the B-wings going after the Star Destroyers. In the new continuity though, they have Blade Squadron, doing that. (Fun fact Blade Squadron's short story was the first material after the 2014 reboot.)
Joek3rr
Master Member
When I was a kid. I made myself a little LEGO model. I came up with this idea, that the Rebels threw some better shields and butt load of lasers, and made basically gun platforms, that were total glass cannon kind of things.
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I found this original SW cut scene that I've never seen before. We always have the debate pop up here every so often questioning whether "Darth" was intended originally to be a name or a title (not answered here) and whether Sith came later. Well Sith Lord was actually spoken in the original SW:
Well yeah that's the answer, but the EU said they were filled with explosives and used as flying bombs. That actually would be an excellent idea. You'd have to boost the hell out of the engines though.
I think the whole ROTJ fighter question is similar. The amount of fighters is what they could film/afford. The Rebel capital ships involved could deploy a lot more fighters than that as well. If they were attacking a Death Star you'd think they would put as many fighters as possible on the ships and then have as many jump in on their own as possible. I think in the ROTJ SE instead of the stupid Jabba's palace musical performance, they should have added the B-Wings back in (attacking ISDs like the concept art) and then added in a lot more Rebel fighters.
Axlotl
Master Member
While the repurposing of Wedge's ship is likely a thing, it probably happened earlier than this battle. He's Red Leader's second, which, in an established squadron, would be unlikely in the window they had. If he'd lost his second at Scarif, another surviving Red Squadron pilot would get bumped up, but not likely someone from outside. Not until they'd had the downtime to rework the T.O.O. and replace blank files.
And that's absolutely what Merrick's presence and the decimation of Blue was supposed to "fix", but it created the new problem of not enough fighters to fit the original film dialogue in Star Wars. Which Rogue One borked in other ways, but that is, sadly, something the new content seems to be doing with impunity. I'm still assessing what I can do with Rogue One's Blue Squadron and whether I can make it work. It'd be nice to have Merrick be the old CAG and then, with all the senior pilots of the Group gone, the cell had to rebuild from what they had left. Wedge became leader of Red Squadron, and Luke became the new CAG, in part due to ability, in part for PR -- he is the son of Clone Wars hero Anakin Skywalker, after all.
That was something Adywan tackled in his "Special Edition Revisited". His Battle of Yavin is much more populous. And he put Yavin in. 'Cause in the original film, the Rebels just went to where the Death Star was and blew it up. The ticking clock was introduced in the final edit. All they had time to do was record some new off-screen dialogue, and shoot some new inserts of the tactical screens at the Rebel base and on the Death Star overbridge. Adding a whole new composited element to the space battle was a no-go.
He also added Yavin IV receding in the background where it's needed.
I handwave it by saying space is bigger than most give it credit for... And the Death Star is smaller than we realize. It's the size of a small moon, not a planet. More curvature at surface-skimming altitudes. We see them approach at roughly the station's equator, before Gold and Red head North to the polar trenches. Blue is likely over the horizon taking potshots at the waistband hangars and thumbing their noses at the gunnery crews who can't hit them.
re: A-Wing pilots Green Leader and Red 3...
Sonuvabitch. I knew about the overdubbed actress, but I thought she was all of those instances. They look just similar enough that watching the battle sequences I didn't catch the differences. Seeing them side-by-side like that, it's obvious. How annoying. I'm-a re-watch ROTJ again to reassess before I say anything further on this.
Not as far as I can tell? The fighters have a lot more room to bounce around the other axes than the Falcon does.
Yep, two. And I'm also pretty sure it's the same blue-gray as used on the TIEs. There were three shown flying with the Falcon before the jump to lightspeed, but they're so motion-blurred, I can't tell which miniature(s) they are. When they leave hyperspace and approach the Death Star, there are four. Same problem. And when they break off to avoid hitting the shield, the main shot shows four, and the next shot -- pointing toward the Death Star -- shows one on it's own amongst some other fighters as the stragglers peel off, making the total represented in the battle five. And not one of them ever clear enough for me to tell which miniature is which ship in which shot. If anyone has reconstructed the sequence, I'd love to see it.
Pretty sure it's the same one as in the briefing scene/at the Endor celebration -- just before the flight suit was dyed (and apparently before the leather helmet was made, too). Regardless, he's definitely not Nien. We see him right after behind Lando and Han helping prep the Falcon, and he's wearing what we're familiar with from the film. And besides, Ten is at the Endor party, in his flight gear. So, definitely two separate characters. And strongly likely the white-suited and red-suited characters are the same one at different points in the process.
To be fair, all the fighters that jumped in were going full throttle for the Death Star until they realized the shield was still up. When they broke off, that's when they saw the Star Destroyers coming around from where they'd been hiding to trap the fleet. They were fending off the fighters and then the Death Star started picking off the Rebel capital ships, and everyone moved into the Imperial ships to mix it up. Of course they were going after the Star Destroyers. They were the only non-capital ships that could. Once the shield went down and Lando's call went out, they would've headed in if the miniatures had worked as they were supposed to.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Having no idea about planes, as a normie "squadron" sounds cooler and more "plane"-ish than group. So from the normie camp, squadron was a good choice lol.
But given the details and intricacies discussed here, a star wars show focused on Rogue squadron and their various missions could be interesting. One issue with Star Wars is the reliance on jedi and this is likely due to the fact that in land-based combat, there is an inevitable desire for jedi to show up because they are strong and have a visual appeal and advantage (has a lightsaber which can deflect blaster fire and force powers to turn the tides of battle).
However, as seen in episode 2, having the force and a lightsaber is far less impactful from inside a cockpit. Although Obi Wan is a jedi, he was basically getting taken to school by Jango Fett and spent most of the fight just running away for dear life. Yes, Jango had the better ship and weapons but he was also implied to be the better pilot, being able to easily reverse the tide from Obi Wan being on his tail to being on Obi Wan's tail. Essentially, jedi arnt as "game breaking" in the air and so there wouldnt be as much of a need to shove them in the show.
"Blast, this is why I hate flying" is right.
I guess that or a spy thriller which is apparently what Andor is about?
But given the details and intricacies discussed here, a star wars show focused on Rogue squadron and their various missions could be interesting. One issue with Star Wars is the reliance on jedi and this is likely due to the fact that in land-based combat, there is an inevitable desire for jedi to show up because they are strong and have a visual appeal and advantage (has a lightsaber which can deflect blaster fire and force powers to turn the tides of battle).
However, as seen in episode 2, having the force and a lightsaber is far less impactful from inside a cockpit. Although Obi Wan is a jedi, he was basically getting taken to school by Jango Fett and spent most of the fight just running away for dear life. Yes, Jango had the better ship and weapons but he was also implied to be the better pilot, being able to easily reverse the tide from Obi Wan being on his tail to being on Obi Wan's tail. Essentially, jedi arnt as "game breaking" in the air and so there wouldnt be as much of a need to shove them in the show.
I guess that or a spy thriller which is apparently what Andor is about?
In a fighter, a Jedi supposedly has faster reflexes, can use the Force to predict the other person's actions, but I don't think Obi-Wan is ever implied to be a great pilot. In fact it's implied that he hates flying.
ANH Timeline question...
A co-worker and I were discussing how many "days" take place from the capture of Leia to the Medal Ceremony. We both agree about 4 or 5 days. Then it got us thinking how much happened on the day Luke and Obi-Wan meet.
Basically Obi-wan dies the same day right?
A co-worker and I were discussing how many "days" take place from the capture of Leia to the Medal Ceremony. We both agree about 4 or 5 days. Then it got us thinking how much happened on the day Luke and Obi-Wan meet.
Basically Obi-wan dies the same day right?
Funny how basic Tatooine desert garb became the Jedi uniform. Was Uncle Owen a Jedi?
Look at a 55yo guy working on his truck in rural Arizona, and he's liable to be wearing jeans & a T-shirt.
Look at a 25yo software developer in a hip NYC office, and he might be wearing jeans & a T-shirt too.
Man, talk about lazy filmmaking! Those two guys are on opposite sides of the country, different enviroments, different jobs, different places in the culture, different generations, etc.
Look at a 25yo software developer in a hip NYC office, and he might be wearing jeans & a T-shirt too.
Man, talk about lazy filmmaking! Those two guys are on opposite sides of the country, different enviroments, different jobs, different places in the culture, different generations, etc.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
While true, I just mean that since having one jedi pilot wont make a huge difference in ship-to-ship combat, they theoretically wouldnt have that show stealing presence they always have on most star wars shows.
Nah, most of the "common folk" seem to wear simple garbs similar to the jedi. Given that jedi are meant to be peace keepers that travel around the galaxy and need to blend in somewhat, they arnt going to be wearing the gucci-equivalents or anything gaudy.Funny how basic Tatooine desert garb became the Jedi uniform. Was Uncle Owen a Jedi?
Watched this yesterday! Always great to see a fan get to fabricate something that gets used on screen!
Man, I really wish the studios would consider selling their 3D files for stuff like this… They’ve already paid for them, so why not try to recoup some of the cost by selling licensed, screen-accurate 3D files? They’d make a killing!
Sean
Joek3rr
Master Member
Maybe the second day? Of course days being kinda subjective here, being space and all. But if Luke met Obi-Wan sometime in the morning. I feel they mad to the Cantina and were out of there by the afternoon. So by the time they are on the Death Star. That's got to be sometime really late that day or early the next morning.
The hyperspace trip to Alderaan was practically in real time, because when we cut from kablooey to Ben reacting, Han returns from the cockpit talking about evading "those Imperial slugs". If the trip was really long, he would have already reported that. By the end of the scene we're in the Alderaan system. So one reallly long day tracks.
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