Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Joek3rr]

But, see, those should be group markings.
Every group had an identifying color scheme. Squadrons within them usually didn't.
There were some exceptions, like Zemke's Wolf pack, but even in cases like those the squadron with, say, blue stripes, wasn't called Blue Squadron, they were called 2nd squadron, and when they were out on a mission they were broken up into elements and given different color call signs. So while they all had blue stripes on their planes, you'd still have a Red 1, a Gold 2, a White 3, etc.

George just didn't know what he was hearing when he watched the old WWII movies, and just made up stuff that sounded good to him. And fans and EU authors have been twisting themselves into pretzels ever since, trying to make it make sense.
if only he'd called them Red Group and Gold Group...

Should be....lol

And I guess what I was thinking was like VF-17 that used a skull and crossbones.

Or VF-84 with the big white arrows on the tail and wings. (With different colored cowling for groups? I see some with white and some with yellow cowling. Alas all my airplane books are all boxed up at the moment)

And as I recall the planes of 303 squadron often had their logo painted on.

 

[Ron]

Growing up, I always thought "Squadron" sounded better despite being an incorrect designation. As I've gotten older, I prefer "Group" had been used instead.

I could've sworn "group" was said somewhere in the OT at least once. I'm sure I've heard it in one of the older Lucasarts games.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Growing up, I always thought "Squadron" sounded better despite being an incorrect designation. As I've gotten older, I prefer "Group" had been used instead.

I could've sworn "group" was said somewhere in the OT at least once. I'm sure I've heard it in one of the older Lucasarts games.

Yes—in the Battle of Hoth.

Luke refers to his speeder group as “Rogue Group”. (“Rogue Group—use your harpoons and tow cables; go for the legs…”)

 

[Ron]

Yes—in the Battle of Hoth.

Luke refers to his speeder group as “Rogue Group”. (“Rogue Group—use your harpoons and tow cables; go for the legs…”)

Yes! I was thinking "Rogue Group" in particular in that scene but couldn't remember. Thanks, Alley.

 

[Jaitea]

Assuming the convo is about the snowspeeder is ludicrous, imho

Totally agree, think that assumption first appeared in some roll playing game or something, & as Star Wars has become more 'Nerdy' & everything needs to be explained, have a backstory & a serial number, that daft explanation has stuck

The original dialogue is just dialogue, used to fill the SW Universe

Why would a medical droid care about Snowspeeders?

J

 

[Joek3rr]

Totally agree, think that assumption first appeared in some roll playing game or something, & as Star Wars has become more 'Nerdy' & everything needs to be explained, have a backstory & a serial number, that daft explanation has stuck

The original dialogue is just dialogue, used to fill the SW Universe

Why would a medical droid care about Snowspeeders?

J

When I was a kid, I always thought the med droid was just concerned about Luke. And he's reminding him that would be awhile before the Snowspeeders can evacuate.

 

[Axlotl]

Should be....lol

And I guess what I was thinking was like VF-17 that used a skull and crossbones. View attachment 1654637

Or VF-84 with the big white arrows on the tail and wings. (With different colored cowling for groups? I see some with white and some with yellow cowling. Alas all my airplane books are all boxed up at the moment)

And as I recall the planes of 303 squadron often had their logo painted on.
View attachment 1654638

Ah, you got me there. I don't know how Navy squadrons/groups were organized. Also know very little about RAF squadrons, except I believe they were organized in flights of 3s, not 4s like USAAF squadrons. My main area of interest is the USAAF, so I know more about them.
So you may be on to something. Maybe George got his fighter lingo from British movies? And maybe they use different organization?

 

[Axlotl]

Here are some images to illustrate what I've been talking about:

The Flying Tigers. As a group, they all had the same camouflage scheme and shark mouth. The red, white, and blue stripes on the tail denoted their squadron.

This is how a squadron was broken up into elements, each with its own color call sign. It wasn't always 4 flights of 4, it depended on what the mission called for and how many planes they could get in the air.
While pilots often had their own aircraft, they often flew missions in someone else's plane. If you were scheduled to fly but your plane was in repairs, you flew what was available.
The plane in the Flying Tigers pic above, #48, was Tex Hill's plane. He ended his time in the Flying Tigers with 12 meatballs painted under his cockpit, not a single one shot down with his own plane.

 

[Laspector]

When were Y-wings referred to as Grey squadron? They were Gold squadron in ANH.

 

[Joek3rr]

Here are some images to illustrate what I've been talking about:

View attachment 1654647
The Flying Tigers. As a group, they all had the same camouflage scheme and shark mouth. The red, white, and blue stripes on the tail denoted their squadron.


View attachment 1654648
This is how a squadron was broken up into elements, each with its own color call sign. It wasn't always 4 flights of 4, it depended on what the mission called for and how many planes they could get in the air.
While pilots often had their own aircraft, they often flew missions in someone else's plane. If you were scheduled to fly but your plane was in repairs, you flew what was available.
The plane in the Flying Tigers pic above, #48, was Tex Hill's plane. He ended his time in the Flying Tigers with 12 meatballs painted under his cockpit, not a single one shot down with his own plane.

That's what I was finding on just the little research I was doing. The nose/cowling often denoted the group. With the tail painted with squadron colors. That's actually something you see often. Even during Vietnam and today. You'll see the Squadron logo on the tail.

And the shark teeth. Were the Tigers the first to use them? Or was it the Germans? I know the Germans and the British both used them.

My friends and I would play a combat flight game online, called War Thunder. When we got four of use, we would use the Finger Four formation, to great effect.

 

[Joek3rr]

When were Y-wings referred to as Grey squadron? They were Gold squadron in ANH.

Grey leader is in a Y-wing.

 

[Axlotl]

And the shark teeth. Were the Tigers the first to use them? Or was it the Germans? I know the Germans and the British both used them.

The Flying Tigers copied their shark mouths from a group of RAF Tomahawks in North Africa. They saw it on the cover of Life magazine. Not sure if that RAF group was the first.

 

[Riceball]

I always had a problem with that take on Tank. And Biggs. There was an assumption made at some point, I think by West End Games, that the "academy" spoken of was an Imperial academy, when the actual dialogue cut in the final edit much, much more heavily implies an Outer Rim merchantmarine academy. Biggs was the newly-appointed second made to a freighter, and was going to jump ship to join the Rebellion, rather than "wait around to be drafted into Imperial service".

Ultimately, I'm fine with the scene being cut. I like it, and it needs to be in the story -- but a couple months earlier at the very least. Biggs needed time to report to his ship, go AWOL at a suitable port of call, which might not be the first one, make contact with the rebels, make it through their screening, get checked out on the T-65, fly some combat missions, get bumped up to Red Squadron, and get enough clout to be listened to when vouching for Luke's piloting ability. It could not have been two days prior to their reunion on Yavin IV.

And I am mad the government has prohibited private sales of retired F-14s to potential collectors, due to them still being in use by countries like Iran. They don't want planes or parts going to now-enemy nations. I have always wanted a B, reconfigured for civilian transport (baggage pods, fixed "drop" tanks, cannon and military-grade radar removed, etc.), painted in one prototype's tiger-stripe paint scheme to honor Grumman's WWII Naval interceptor, the Tigercat.

I never tried to make it work with the pieces I had on-hand. I didn't have a second F-14 for the lower hull, I didn't have anything suitable to use for the canopy or rear fuselage... I just noted the likelihood that was what was used for the main hull of the A-wing.

Thinking now, I wonder if the taper means they used AMT's Enterprise model kits for the engines. I can't readily think of anything else that has a tapered-cylinder shape like that at the time.

If the government actually allowed civilian F-14s, you could, if you had the money, get in more or less full military configuration. The radar is outdated, particularly if it's an F-14A. The M61 Vulcan would be legal to own if it's old enough, it would be a "simple" matter of applying to the ATF to own it, I think. Feeding it would be something else entirely, 20mm isn't cheap, and finding a range where you could fly by and shoot at things on the ground would be a tad hard to find, but a pre-1986 M61 should fall under the NFA, assuming that there are no restrictions on mounting it on an aircraft.

 

[blewis17]

First time I've seen this. Amazing what still shows up today!

 

[Joek3rr]

First time I've seen this. Amazing what still shows up today!

Really!? That's been around for several years now. I want to say it was on the 2011 Blu Rays?

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

The Flying Tigers copied their shark mouths from a group of RAF Tomahawks in North Africa. They saw it on the cover of Life magazine. Not sure if that RAF group was the first.

That's correct, but they did have shark mouths back to WW1. The Germans were actually the first to put shark mouths on planes in WW1. The P40 was just the best looking plane for this, IMO.

 

[Master Boda]

I know GL used WW II footage for the space battles,maybe he watched British footage and that’s why the formation was different than the USAF?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Okay. Starfighter organization in the GFFA. Here we go again. George liked the sound of certain words, and, in general, went for "feel/implication" over strict accuracy. A lot of his reference was WWII-bomber-based, with some dogfighting. My granddad was in the 510th Bombardment Squadron, 351st Bombardment Group, 8th Air Force. He was formation leader and deputy squadron commander for most of his tour. So I know how real-world stuff worked for bombers at the time. My own interests were in naval aviation, and I wanted to be a Tomcat driver before the three words "pre-existing", "medical", and "condition" kept me out. I know a lot about how post-WWII naval aviation organization works.

One thing I can appreciate as sort of unintentional worldbuilding is how what George did gives it verisimilitude-at-a-remove. It's evocative, but not exactly like how anyone does it out here in Reality-Land™.

He used the words "squad(ron)" and "group" interchangeably in ANH. In ESB, per the deck officer "groups seven and ten will stay behind to fly the speeders" -- of what Luke then identified as Rogue Group. Two groups making up a group is nonsensical. In ROTJ, all the dialogue refers to the colors in group terms. But ILM shot a lot of stuff, that George then picked and chose what he wanted where for the best look. A bunch of actors in flight gear in the cockpits of the various fighters, all delivering the same lines in their own way. So, as a result, Gray Leader is also Red Two, Green Leader is also Red Three... It's kinda garbage and you can't point to it with any kind of consistency. Factors like West End Games and Decipher then muddled things further in the early EU due to their own (mis)interpretations. That's how the B-Wings in ROTJ became Blue Group, when the visual storytelling (and their markings) present them as better fitting Gold Group.

So what I stick with is that there are Groups, each of which containing three Squadrons, each consisting of (typically) twelve craft, organized into four-ship sections, each consisting of two-ship elements -- lead and wing. Granular, all the way up and down. So in ANH, when Luke made his trench run, he was flying point, Biggs was his wing, Wedge was rear cover, and the Y-Wing we saw leaving with Luke and Wedge was flying high cover outside the trench (as Analyzer and I sorted out over in the modeling section, I feel it's the Red Jammer Y-Wing, flying under the Red 7 callsign).

There's a broadly-established hierarchy of gold-red-blue throughout the setting, from Mandalorian Protector grades to clone trooper ranks to Imperial ranks, and the color-coding of the squadrons seems to fit that. I feel like Republic and Empire just numbered their Groups, and had internal designations within those Groups similar to what we do. The Rebellion is, by necessity, much more flexible. It's likely they went with the G-R-B thing out of that millennia-long familiarity, and their Groups are named, being moved around as needed, so quasi-independent units. The colors indicate rough mission rôle. Gold are the primary assault squadron. Red are the interceptors/dogfighters, providing cover for Gold. Blue are the high cover/picket ships and/or landing forces. The greenest pilots go into Blue, being the posting most likely to get them some combat experience without getting them killed before they can learn anything.

So I don't treat the Rebels' structure as indicative of formal military organization in the GFFA. Meanwhile, over in the Empire, the callsigns say it all: AA-(#)(#)#-(#)#... Where it goes, two-letter code for posting, one-to-three-digit (by the time of ROTJ) Group number, one-or-two-digit craft number (one through twelve). So, for instance, Vader's wingmen in Star Wars were DS-61-2 and DS-61-3. DS because they were part of the Death Star's starfighter wing (consisting of at least five known Groups), 61 because they were part of the Empire's 61st Starfighter Group, and 2 and 3 for the individual craft within the group. Good chance they were part of the lead squadron, but numbering doesn't necessarily indicate that. Especially in the Empire, personnel got shuffled around the Group to keep cliques or conspiracies from forming. At the time of ROTJ, the 181st Starfighter Group, the Group Commander was in the second squadron, and his deputy was leading the first. 181-1 (Fel) and his wingman, 181-3, were in the one squadron, while 181-2 (Phennir) and his wingman, 181-4 were in the other.

I feel it's likely the Empire didn't have specific squadrons indicated within the Groups because of this shuffling. Squadron rôles and assignments were likely drawn up for any given mission.

But, in all cases, it's the Group that seems to be the linchpin unit of organization, rather than anything larger or smaller.

 

[blewis17]

Really!? That's been around for several years now. I want to say it was on the 2011 Blu Rays?

Just new to me.

 

[Joek3rr]

Okay. Starfighter organization in the GFFA. Here we go again. George liked the sound of certain words, and, in general, went for "feel/implication" over strict accuracy. A lot of his reference was WWII-bomber-based, with some dogfighting. My granddad was in the 510th Bombardment Squadron, 351st Bombardment Group, 8th Air Force. He was formation leader and deputy squadron commander for most of his tour. So I know how real-world stuff worked for bombers at the time. My own interests were in naval aviation, and I wanted to be a Tomcat driver before the three words "pre-existing", "medical", and "condition" kept me out. I know a lot about how post-WWII naval aviation organization works.

One thing I can appreciate as sort of unintentional worldbuilding is how what George did gives it verisimilitude-at-a-remove. It's evocative, but not exactly like how anyone does it out here in Reality-Land™.

He used the words "squad(ron)" and "group" interchangeably in ANH. In ESB, per the deck officer "groups seven and ten will stay behind to fly the speeders" -- of what Luke then identified as Rogue Group. Two groups making up a group is nonsensical. In ROTJ, all the dialogue refers to the colors in group terms. But ILM shot a lot of stuff, that George then picked and chose what he wanted where for the best look. A bunch of actors in flight gear in the cockpits of the various fighters, all delivering the same lines in their own way. So, as a result, Gray Leader is also Red Two, Green Leader is also Red Three... It's kinda garbage and you can't point to it with any kind of consistency. Factors like West End Games and Decipher then muddled things further in the early EU due to their own (mis)interpretations. That's how the B-Wings in ROTJ became Blue Group, when the visual storytelling (and their markings) present them as better fitting Gold Group.

It's funny, to think about. But I don't recall any other ships in the films being identified as being in Gold Squadron.

And I don't think the B-wings would have been in Gold Squadron. There's no way B-wings would have been able to navigate the interior superstructure.

Plus I feel like ships in Blue Squadron are meant to be a bit of a tongue in cheek, about the B-wings not working well with the blue screen. And Blue Squadron being squadron the ships that are just off screen are in.

So what I stick with is that there are Groups, each of which containing three Squadrons, each consisting of (typically) twelve craft, organized into four-ship sections, each consisting of two-ship elements -- lead and wing. Granular, all the way up and down. So in ANH, when Luke made his trench run, he was flying point, Biggs was his wing, Wedge was rear cover, and the Y-Wing we saw leaving with Luke and Wedge was flying high cover outside the trench (as Analyzer and I sorted out over in the modeling section, I feel it's the Red Jammer Y-Wing, flying under the Red 7 callsign).

Wait. You guys think Red Jammer is actually in the film?

Also this nitpick of mine in Star Wars. Squadrons with mixed ships. It's a frequent occurrence in Star Wars. But to my knowledge it was never done. Outside maybe a Squadron being equipped with slightly different versions of the same craft. Like P-51Bs and Ds in the same squadron.

There's a broadly-established hierarchy of gold-red-blue throughout the setting, from Mandalorian Protector grades to clone trooper ranks to Imperial ranks, and the color-coding of the squadrons seems to fit that. I feel like Republic and Empire just numbered their Groups, and had internal designations within those Groups similar to what we do. The Rebellion is, by necessity, much more flexible. It's likely they went with the G-R-B thing out of that millennia-long familiarity, and their Groups are named, being moved around as needed, so quasi-independent units. The colors indicate rough mission rôle. Gold are the primary assault squadron. Red are the interceptors/dogfighters, providing cover for Gold. Blue are the high cover/picket ships and/or landing forces. The greenest pilots go into Blue, being the posting most likely to get them some combat experience without getting them killed before they can learn anything.

So I don't treat the Rebels' structure as indicative of formal military organization in the GFFA. Meanwhile, over in the Empire, the callsigns say it all: AA-(#)(#)#-(#)#... Where it goes, two-letter code for posting, one-to-three-digit (by the time of ROTJ) Group number, one-or-two-digit craft number (one through twelve). So, for instance, Vader's wingmen in Star Wars were DS-61-2 and DS-61-3. DS because they were part of the Death Star's starfighter wing (consisting of at least five known Groups), 61 because they were part of the Empire's 61st Starfighter Group, and 2 and 3 for the individual craft within the group. Good chance they were part of the lead squadron, but numbering doesn't necessarily indicate that. Especially in the Empire, personnel got shuffled around the Group to keep cliques or conspiracies from forming. At the time of ROTJ, the 181st Starfighter Group, the Group Commander was in the second squadron, and his deputy was leading the first. 181-1 (Fel) and his wingman, 181-3, were in the one squadron, while 181-2 (Phennir) and his wingman, 181-4 were in the other.

I feel it's likely the Empire didn't have specific squadrons indicated within the Groups because of this shuffling. Squadron rôles and assignments were likely drawn up for any given mission.

But, in all cases, it's the Group that seems to be the linchpin unit of organization, rather than anything larger or smaller.