Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Sorry, I meant "identify" as a screen used costume from ANH or just perhaps a promotional touring suit and not screen used?

Likely one of the surviving production suits/tour suits. The picture quality's bad enough I don't know that we could get a positive ID on much more than the handplates, forearm armor, and maybe ab plate, from the close-up where he's fiddling with the X-Wing toy.

And speaking of X-Wings... I am one who hopes the Rogue Squadron project never is finished. I want that term to stay behind the gold banner of LEGENDS. That and hot chocolate are the two things I will always hold against Tim Zahn. There. Is. No. Rogue. Squadron. He is guilty of watching the movies, but not seeing or hearing them. George used too many terms interchangeably because he liked the sound. "Groups seven and ten will stay behind to fly the speeders"... of what Luke addressed as "Rogue Group". Two groups comprising another group is sloppy writing. Especially because "Gold Squadron, begin launch procedures" is heard over the hangar PA in ANH's original sound mix, even though Red and Gold are just called "groups" in the rest of the dialogue.

There is Rogue Group, of which Luke Skywalker is Group Commander, and within it are Gold, Red, and Blue Squadrons. Gold was wiped out at Yavin and would have to be reformed over time -- possibly even not until ROTJ. Wedge was seniormost of the three surviving Red Squadron members, so got bumped up to Red Leader. The Y-Wing pilot was senior to Luke, so was bumped up to Red 2. Luke stayed at Red 5 as the squadron was reformed, as he was promoted to Group Commander (more strategic planning and logistics than combat leadership -- in space, anyway... on the ground, his years flying his T-16 Skyhopper made him the choice for formation lead for airspeeder combat).

Given their flying together in the Falcon in TROS, after flying together against the Death Star II in ROTJ as their respective squadron leaders, I would love to see stories of Lando and Wedge working to build the group into the multirole spec-ops group the EU gave us -- but a group comprised of multiple squadrons. I want to see Gold with more than the Falcon (gimme my B-Wings, dammit!). I want Wraith, the new recruits, to be Blue. I want to see proper structure from what the OT gave us in spite of George's writing laziness. I want to see Luke involved with that, rather than immediately setting up his new Jedi school (that can be maybe halfway through the "lost years").

But I don't want to see more Lucasfilm people getting their own lore wrong (no, the guy in the light jacket in the Death Star conference room was not a Grand Admiral).

 

[Ridire Firean]

Thanks JoeG ! Yeah, I guess Disney feels like they're making too much money and don't want to make any more by selling DVDs.

There are folks that will pay for streaming content, and some folks that won't. There are folks that will pay for physical copies of every release, and some folks that won't. And I'd bet there are folks that will pay for streaming content AND physical copies.

One thing is for certain though, you can't wrap streaming content and stick it under the Christmas Tree.

On a tangent thought, with all the interesting content being shown in commercials on TV for Disney +, AMC + , Netflix, and Apple TV, what's going to be left for the movie theaters and TV? I guess not having anything good to watch on TV will finally get me to turn the stupid thing off and go do something creative.

 

[Axlotl]

Likely one of the surviving production suits/tour suits. The picture quality's bad enough I don't know that we could get a positive ID on much more than the handplates, forearm armor, and maybe ab plate, from the close-up where he's fiddling with the X-Wing toy.

And speaking of X-Wings... I am one who hopes the Rogue Squadron project never is finished. I want that term to stay behind the gold banner of LEGENDS. That and hot chocolate are the two things I will always hold against Tim Zahn. There. Is. No. Rogue. Squadron. He is guilty of watching the movies, but not seeing or hearing them. George used too many terms interchangeably because he liked the sound. "Groups seven and ten will stay behind to fly the speeders"... of what Luke addressed as "Rogue Group". Two groups comprising another group is sloppy writing. Especially because "Gold Squadron, begin launch procedures" is heard over the hangar PA in ANH's original sound mix, even though Red and Gold are just called "groups" in the rest of the dialogue.

There is Rogue Group, of which Luke Skywalker is Group Commander, and within it are Gold, Red, and Blue Squadrons. Gold was wiped out at Yavin and would have to be reformed over time -- possibly even not until ROTJ. Wedge was seniormost of the three surviving Red Squadron members, so got bumped up to Red Leader. The Y-Wing pilot was senior to Luke, so was bumped up to Red 2. Luke stayed at Red 5 as the squadron was reformed, as he was promoted to Group Commander (more strategic planning and logistics than combat leadership -- in space, anyway... on the ground, his years flying his T-16 Skyhopper made him the choice for formation lead for airspeeder combat).

Given their flying together in the Falcon in TROS, after flying together against the Death Star II in ROTJ as their respective squadron leaders, I would love to see stories of Lando and Wedge working to build the group into the multirole spec-ops group the EU gave us -- but a group comprised of multiple squadrons. I want to see Gold with more than the Falcon (gimme my B-Wings, dammit!). I want Wraith, the new recruits, to be Blue. I want to see proper structure from what the OT gave us in spite of George's writing laziness. I want to see Luke involved with that, rather than immediately setting up his new Jedi school (that can be maybe halfway through the "lost years").

But I don't want to see more Lucasfilm people getting their own lore wrong (no, the guy in the light jacket in the Death Star conference room was not a Grand Admiral).

I addressed this in another thread a couple years ago.
George obviously got his dogfighting lingo from watching WWII movies, but didnt understand what he was hearing.
In WWII, British and American squadrons were broken down into "elements" for missions, and it was those elements that got color designations. For example, gold element might be the flight lead, red element the main assault force, and blue element the top cover position. These were simply radio call signs and changed from one mission to the next. A pilot might answer to blue today, and white tomorrow.
Some squadrons did adopt different color schemes to differentiate themselves, the 56th fighter group being a famous example, but they were the exception, not the rule, and even they didn't call themselves red or blue squadron.
George just copied dialog from war movies without knowing what it meant, and then other writers who also didn't know what it meant took the ball and ran with it.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

There's no reason not to have a Rogue Squadron. They could retcon it to be an elite squadron named after the group that stole the Death Star plans or even as a nod to Luke's unit. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

 

[CB2001]

In relation to Rogue Squadron, but this apparently ties into a lot of projects. Not sure if any of it has been true or not.

 

[Pepperbone]

I WILL NOT PAY TO SEE ANY FUTURE STAR WARS FILMS THAT RUIN J. HAS ANY INVOLVEMENT IN.

I would have also accepted: NEVER.

 

[CB2001]

I would have also accepted: NEVER.

View attachment 1511049

Well, if Doomcock's sources are correct, that will not be a problem. XD

 

[Pepperbone]

Well, if Doomcock's sources are correct, that will not be a problem. XD

A New Hope.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I addressed this in another thread a couple years ago.
George obviously got his dogfighting lingo from watching WWII movies, but didnt understand what he was hearing.
In WWII, British and American squadrons were broken down into "elements" for missions, and it was those elements that got color designations. For example, gold element might be the flight lead, red element the main assault force, and blue element the top cover position. These were simply radio call signs and changed from one mission to the next. A pilot might answer to blue today, and white tomorrow.
Some squadrons did adopt different color schemes to differentiate themselves, the 56th fighter group being a famous example, but they were the exception, not the rule, and even they didn't call themselves red or blue squadron.
George just copied dialog from war movies without knowing what it meant, and then other writers who also didn't know what it meant took the ball and ran with it.

Yup. I'm trying to divorce real-world inspiration from how it's depicted in-universe. Since the color callsigns are painted on their craft, and show signs of extensive weathering, indicating they don't change often, let alone every mission. So I look at the inspiration in reality, and then see how it works best tweaked to the fictional setting. I've also mentioned over the years the repeated visual motif from the Old Republic on up of the yellow-red-blue hierarchy, from Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders to Clone ranks to Mandalorian Protector grades to Imperial rank squares to Rebel fighter squadrons.

In this case, I'd be fine with group=element if they weren't squadron strength and called squadron at least once in the canon material. There's a millennia-long history of using the primary colors to indicate seniority that seems to span the entire galactic-scale macroculture of the GFFA. I'm not even sure how conscious they are they do it. And that seniority seems to reflect mission profile, in a weird amalgam of old and new -- military academies mashed up with the Twenty-Minuters. The elites are the first in, the proven fly close interdiction, the ones with the least flight time fly high cover. Barring exceptions, of course. Above that, the groups and wings have more characterful appellations, depending on the when and where.

The Republic and planetary defense forces had starfighter units with some of the panache we're used to here on Earth, such as the Rarefied Air Cavalry and the Tierfon Yellow Aces. The lore has those as squadrons, a la our Jolly Rogers or Sundowners, but I feel they work better as group names in-universe, based on precedent set in Star Wars and Empire. Out here, the squadrons got nicknames, but above that nothing but numbers, except other unofficial things like "The Mighty Eighth" for the 8th Air Force. That's not what we see in the fictional setting. Prior to Empire, Squadrons within a Group get color designators, Groups get names -- simple or complex. Above that, there doesn't seem to be a formal designator beyond, say, "Alderaanian Guard" or "Open Circle Fleet" for a Wing equivalent.

The impersonal Empire just numbered its groups in the order activated, and took to designating its squadrons differently (weapons and shades of black and metal), plus also designating the wing based by assignment. Thus, for instance, DS-181-2 would be the second craft attached to the 181st Group (Interceptors) stationed aboard the Death Star II -- Soontir Fel's craft, incidentally.

It's always fun to use real-world knowledge to compare and contrast with what the visual and background story structure show us in-universe... but only up until the minds working on the setting are not those who initially created those cues, and they haven't done their homework, allowing more and more contradictory stuff to slip in that we, then, have to try to rationalize. You should see what I've done with the whole "commander" thing. *lol*

 

[Joek3rr]

What you call ambiguous I call sloppy writing and poorly constructed. Its' the result of post hoc rationalizing an existing story. If writers were concerned with preserving people's head canon nothing would have been written after RoTJ. That applies to George's prequels too!

And you probably guessed I'm going to disagree with you.

Firstly, remember the target audience is kids. Kids don't care about overt explanation. I would say that the ambiguous has a certain charm. It never bothered me before. Watching the OT and PT, when I was a kid.

On top of that. If this your metric for saying what lazily written then George's six films are very lazy.

Allow me to explain.

Take Force spirits, or Force ghosts. In the very first film Obi-Wan is cut down by Vader only to vanish, and then moments later he speaks to Luke. I didn't, and I would guess most didn't question this. We just rolled with it. We accepted it as a fact of the Star Wars universe. Even though there wasn't an explanation anywhere for it. In the next film, when Obi-Wan is now able to appear as visible apparition. Again no explanation, but we just went with it. And in ROTJ, even with Anakin not disappearing, but still showing up as ghost. We just accepted. Even though there was no explanation. Even in the Prequels, with Qui-Gon not vanishing, yet still speaking from grave. I certainly wasn't bothered by it. It wouldn't be until Revenge of the Sith, until we would finally begin to get a bit of explanation on Force spirits. And it was only one line. "One has learned to return from the Netherworld of the Force." But if you wanted a full explanation for why some Jedi become spirits and some don't. You would have to watch Yoda's arc in season 6 of The Clone Wars.

Next let's consider the prophecy of the Chosen One. And balance of the Force. In all of the three Prequel films, for as important as the prophecy is to them. Not once is the prophecy ever stated. Only how the Jedi interpret it. If you had wanted to know what the prophecy said, you would have need to read "Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force." Because we don't what is we're left with ambiguity, particularly when Yoda and Mace begin questioning the Jedi's interpretation.

And if we look what balance in the Force is. The films barely touch on it. For as important as it is. There's a few hints. But if you wanted to know what the nature of the Force is. And it's Yin Yang, push pull, dyadic nature. You would need to watch the Mortis arc in The Clone Wars. And even then the answers aren't overt or explicit, it's still ambiguous. The closest we get to a more overt answer is in TLJ. But nevertheless, not knowing exactly what balance is, doesn't change the fact that we can understand what it is for the story. The lack of over answer, doesn't change are understanding of the story. Particularly to a child.

There's also The Rule of Two. Introduced in TPM. There's no explanation for this at all, in a any of the films. Not even the name. You would have had to read the Darth Bane trilogy to find that out. But again, it's not necessary for our understanding of the story. As a child I, it was just another fact of the Star Wars universe. There could only two Sith.

Which bring around full circle to Palpatine's return in TROS. Yes not overtly stated. But we have more context clues, more possible explanations for his return given in the one one film. Then we have had for Force spirits, the prophecy, Balance in the Force, or the Rule of Two. We have more about Palpatine's return in TROS then any of the other aspects in the Star Wars. Yet, and I don't know about you, but when I watched the films as child, the lack of explicit answers, or the lack of any answers in some case, never changed my enjoyment. Yes it was nice to finally get answers, but it was fun not knowing everything. Having a bit of mystery to things. Stuff for my friends and I talk about and debate.

So if I may be so bold. Perhaps Palpatine's return, and the lack of a explicit answer, that's overtly stated, in the film. Maybe that isn't a problem with the writers. Maybe that's on you? The answers, are, all there. Just not laid out in "Bond" villain style. Maybe we need to tap into our inner child again? When the lack of explicit answers wasn't a problem. We just ran with what given, and enjoyed the film.

 

[Axlotl]

Yup. I'm trying to divorce real-world inspiration from how it's depicted in-universe. Since the color callsigns are painted on their craft, and show signs of extensive weathering, indicating they don't change often, let alone every mission. So I look at the inspiration in reality, and then see how it works best tweaked to the fictional setting. I've also mentioned over the years the repeated visual motif from the Old Republic on up of the yellow-red-blue hierarchy, from Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders to Clone ranks to Mandalorian Protector grades to Imperial rank squares to Rebel fighter squadrons.

In this case, I'd be fine with group=element if they weren't squadron strength and called squadron at least once in the canon material. There's a millennia-long history of using the primary colors to indicate seniority that seems to span the entire galactic-scale macroculture of the GFFA. I'm not even sure how conscious they are they do it. And that seniority seems to reflect mission profile, in a weird amalgam of old and new -- military academies mashed up with the Twenty-Minuters. The elites are the first in, the proven fly close interdiction, the ones with the least flight time fly high cover. Barring exceptions, of course. Above that, the groups and wings have more characterful appellations, depending on the when and where.

The Republic and planetary defense forces had starfighter units with some of the panache we're used to here on Earth, such as the Rarefied Air Cavalry and the Tierfon Yellow Aces. The lore has those as squadrons, a la our Jolly Rogers or Sundowners, but I feel they work better as group names in-universe, based on precedent set in Star Wars and Empire. Out here, the squadrons got nicknames, but above that nothing but numbers, except other unofficial things like "The Mighty Eighth" for the 8th Air Force. That's not what we see in the fictional setting. Prior to Empire, Squadrons within a Group get color designators, Groups get names -- simple or complex. Above that, there doesn't seem to be a formal designator beyond, say, "Alderaanian Guard" or "Open Circle Fleet" for a Wing equivalent.

The impersonal Empire just numbered its groups in the order activated, and took to designating its squadrons differently (weapons and shades of black and metal), plus also designating the wing based by assignment. Thus, for instance, DS-181-2 would be the second craft attached to the 181st Group (Interceptors) stationed aboard the Death Star II -- Soontir Fel's craft, incidentally.

It's always fun to use real-world knowledge to compare and contrast with what the visual and background story structure show us in-universe... but only up until the minds working on the setting are not those who initially created those cues, and they haven't done their homework, allowing more and more contradictory stuff to slip in that we, then, have to try to rationalize. You should see what I've done with the whole "commander" thing. *lol*

You're gonna break your brain trying to make sense of nonsense.

 

[batguy]

Meh.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Optimus Prime's trailer in the cartoon whenever he transformed.

 

[Bigdaddy]

And you probably guessed I'm going to disagree with you.

Firstly, remember the target audience is kids. Kids don't care about overt explanation. I would say that the ambiguous has a certain charm. It never bothered me before. Watching the OT and PT, when I was a kid.

On top of that. If this your metric for saying what lazily written then George's six films are very lazy.

Allow me to explain.

Take Force spirits, or Force ghosts. In the very first film Obi-Wan is cut down by Vader only to vanish, and then moments later he speaks to Luke. I didn't, and I would guess most didn't question this. We just rolled with it. We accepted it as a fact of the Star Wars universe. Even though there wasn't an explanation anywhere for it. In the next film, when Obi-Wan is now able to appear as visible apparition. Again no explanation, but we just went with it. And in ROTJ, even with Anakin not disappearing, but still showing up as ghost. We just accepted. Even though there was no explanation. Even in the Prequels, with Qui-Gon not vanishing, yet still speaking from grave. I certainly wasn't bothered by it. It wouldn't be until Revenge of the Sith, until we would finally begin to get a bit of explanation on Force spirits. And it was only one line. "One has learned to return from the Netherworld of the Force." But if you wanted a full explanation for why some Jedi become spirits and some don't. You would have to watch Yoda's arc in season 6 of The Clone Wars.

Next let's consider the prophecy of the Chosen One. And balance of the Force. In all of the three Prequel films, for as important as the prophecy is to them. Not once is the prophecy ever stated. Only how the Jedi interpret it. If you had wanted to know what the prophecy said, you would have need to read "Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force." Because we don't what is we're left with ambiguity, particularly when Yoda and Mace begin questioning the Jedi's interpretation.

And if we look what balance in the Force is. The films barely touch on it. For as important as it is. There's a few hints. But if you wanted to know what the nature of the Force is. And it's Yin Yang, push pull, dyadic nature. You would need to watch the Mortis arc in The Clone Wars. And even then the answers aren't overt or explicit, it's still ambiguous. The closest we get to a more overt answer is in TLJ. But nevertheless, not knowing exactly what balance is, doesn't change the fact that we can understand what it is for the story. The lack of over answer, doesn't change are understanding of the story. Particularly to a child.

There's also The Rule of Two. Introduced in TPM. There's no explanation for this at all, in a any of the films. Not even the name. You would have had to read the Darth Bane trilogy to find that out. But again, it's not necessary for our understanding of the story. As a child I, it was just another fact of the Star Wars universe. There could only two Sith.

Which bring around full circle to Palpatine's return in TROS. Yes not overtly stated. But we have more context clues, more possible explanations for his return given in the one one film. Then we have had for Force spirits, the prophecy, Balance in the Force, or the Rule of Two. We have more about Palpatine's return in TROS then any of the other aspects in the Star Wars. Yet, and I don't know about you, but when I watched the films as child, the lack of explicit answers, or the lack of any answers in some case, never changed my enjoyment. Yes it was nice to finally get answers, but it was fun not knowing everything. Having a bit of mystery to things. Stuff for my friends and I talk about and debate.

So if I may be so bold. Perhaps Palpatine's return, and the lack of a explicit answer, that's overtly stated, in the film. Maybe that isn't a problem with the writers. Maybe that's on you? The answers, are, all there. Just not laid out in "Bond" villain style. Maybe we need to tap into our inner child again? When the lack of explicit answers wasn't a problem. We just ran with what given, and enjoyed the film.

Appealing to the PT dodges my point. You suggested the writers purposely left the story ambiguous to allow us our "head canon". None of your points addressed that assertion. However I'd say you did a good job of explaining why everything written after the OT is irrelevant to the original story.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

You're gonna break your brain trying to make sense of nonsense.

...There is another theory which states that this has already happened...

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Optimus Prime's trailer in the cartoon whenever he transformed.

Personally-coded subspace pocket. Same place all their weapons and Soundwave's tapes and all the extra mass when Soundwave, Reflector, and Megatron transform goes. We've known that for decades. Gimme a hard one.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

In relation to Rogue Squadron, but this apparently ties into a lot of projects. Not sure if any of it has been true or not.

A LOT of those Youtube Star Wars "news" people seem like they are just a fanboy dream. I keep seeing people proclaiming that Disney is going to erase the ST and redo it and I just don't buy that.

 

[Joek3rr]

Appealing to the PT dodges my point. You suggested the writers purposely left the story ambiguous to allow us our "head canon". None of your points addressed that assertion. However I'd say you did a good job of explaining why everything written after the OT is irrelevant to the original story.

Wich is why started with Force spirits in the OT.

Oh sure it does. When s film maker doesn't explicitly answer something(Force spirits, balance, Palpatine, Rule of Two, etc) in the film. Then your inviting people to work it out for themselves. Your encouraging the use of head canon. As ultimately that all eventually have canon answers put down. But until then....it all open to our interpretation and head canon. That's why you have wildly diverse thoughts on how Jedi become Force spirits, what the prophecy of the Chosen One means, what balance is, and how Palpatine cheated death.

My friend, everything after 77 is irrelevant to the story. Everything since then is an unnecessary addition. But that doesn't make wrong or bad. "Star Wars" could have very happily existed as the one film. Sequels weren't needed, Prequels weren't needed. But we have them.

 

[Bigdaddy]

I never said they were bad or wrong, I simply pointed out that writers don't purposely leave out important story points for the explicit reason of allowing the fun of head canon. Generally important details are left out due to sloppy storytelling or in the case of additions to an existing and finished story, post hoc rationalizing.
I understand you disagree, if it helps you enjoy the franchise have at it. I just don't buy into the idea.

 

[Riceball]

I never said they were bad or wrong, I simply pointed out that writers don't purposely leave out important story points for the explicit reason of allowing the fun of head canon. Generally important details are left out due to sloppy storytelling or in the case of additions to an existing and finished story, post hoc rationalizing.
I understand you disagree, if it helps you enjoy the franchise have at it. I just don't buy into the idea.

I agree, I don't think that the script writers are that detailed and/or that into Star Wars where they understand all of the lore and try to craft their stories to fit within it or deliberately leave parts vague and up to interpretation. They're screen writers, not Star Wars historians, they probably know the larger details but you really can't expect them to know all of the minutiae that a lot of the fans know. They're more concerned about telling a good story first, one that appeals to a broad audience and not just hard core Star Wars nerds. And they need to write a script/story that fits within a 1.5 - 2 hour run time and one not so bogged down in details & exposition that the pacing drags.

 

[harrisonp]

I’m now on to book 2 of the Alphabet Squadron series and they changed the narrator for the audiobook which has put me off greatly.

 

[Halliwax]

A LOT of those Youtube Star Wars "news" people seem like they are just a fanboy dream. I keep seeing people proclaiming that Disney is going to erase the ST and redo it and I just don't buy that.

One can only hope

Trouble with all these YouTubers is.. clicks = paychecks. They say what ever they want to reel you in for that one click.

I can’t even think of anything any of these guys have said with their inside connections that has come true..

Mike zeroh lol episode 10 is going to happen!!