Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Psab keel]

Again this speaks to the mentality that Luke is some sort of manic-depressive darkside dabbler who goes in and out of fits of rage.

Hardly the the kind of hero people have admired for 40 plus years. Perhaps it's the inclusion of the ST into the Canon that has warped people's perception of the character so badly that they would think of Luke this way.

Blind acceptance because George or anyone else said so without considering valid reasoning to the contrary is intellectually dishonest. Besides, constantly referencing an unreliable source never bodes well in a debate because it undermines your stance.

I mean let's get real here, we're not clashing over politics or religion or anything truly serious. We're arguing over the merits of a fictional character's motivation. But at the least we can acknowledge that it's better to frame one's arguments based on the context of the films alone and not on the creator's intentions, which are constantly changing.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

If I come off like I'm choosing sides or something, I'm not. Psab can tell y'all in exhausting detail how I feel the potential of Star Wars has been squandered by its creator -- who never wanted to make more than one, and doesn't like either writing or directing... but that I love a lot of individual moments and have been fighting, in my mental-masturbation rewrites, to wrestle those into a story that actually works.

So bear that in mind when I say I have no idea how people are seeing that scene in TLJ as "Luke contemplating murdering Ben". I've seen it multiple times, heard the dialogue, and from first viewing opening night to most recent it plays the same for me: He's felt the darkness in Ben, it's especially bad one night and draws him to Ben's room, whether he already had his lightsaber on him or automatically picked it up on his way past I can't say (but presume the former, as he was fully dressed, not in his jammies), looked into Ben's dreams -- or rather, couldn't help but see them when he was that close, the direction of Ben's thoughts was so horrific he drew and ignited his lightsaber to end the threat without being consciously aware of his reaction, the sound seemed to pull him back to himself and he looked down at the lit saber in some confusion, looked back up at Ben and saw him awake and looking at him, and Ben reacted before he could say or do anything further.

That is, so not analogous to deliberately pointing a loaded and ****** gun at someone and then choosing not to fire. Could it have been conveyed better? Oh, hell yeah. Preferably not in flashback. But this is an argument over what's on the screen versus what some people are seeing. I have a lot of issues with TLJ, so I'm no apologist. But that's one scene where objective versus subjective is pretty easily cleared up and I don't get why it's still a thing. You can not like that Luke had that moment when he was distracted where a little Dark Side slipped through, but I also feel that that was set up in ESB with his choice to abandon his training. Yoda warned him several times in that film:

"If you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."
"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

By acting in impatience and fear in ESB, as he did, he basically ensured the Dark Side will always have a toe in the door with him, and he'll always have to be actively watchful for its attempts to slip in on little cat feet. But that ongoing struggle should have been actually shown over the years following ROTJ -- not just the end result.

 

[Psab keel]

I think the difference in your assessment is that you can at least acknowledge that the set up for certain elements of the film could have been done differently. Which has been the very core of what I have been wanting. Not agreement on the subject but the willingness to consider the other side's existence. Joek3rr seems unwilling to do that.

I'd much rather he bluntly say, Psab, I think you're wrong but to each their own, rather than try and convince me with every fiber of his being to change my mind. Maybe I'm perceiving his intention wrong.

I have no intention of changing his mind, nor do I think I ever could. Though I have every right to my opinion just as he does his.

 

[Apollo]

“The internet, is what arguments are for”

 

[ThreadSketch]

So bear that in mind when I say I have no idea how people are seeing that scene in TLJ as "Luke contemplating murdering Ben". I've seen it multiple times, heard the dialogue, and from first viewing opening night to most recent it plays the same for me: He's felt the darkness in Ben, it's especially bad one night and draws him to Ben's room, whether he already had his lightsaber on him or automatically picked it up on his way past I can't say (but presume the former, as he was fully dressed, not in his jammies), looked into Ben's dreams -- or rather, couldn't help but see them when he was that close, the direction of Ben's thoughts was so horrific he drew and ignited his lightsaber to end the threat without being consciously aware of his reaction, the sound seemed to pull him back to himself and he looked down at the lit saber in some confusion, looked back up at Ben and saw him awake and looking at him, and Ben reacted before he could say or do anything further.

That is, so not analogous to deliberately pointing a loaded and ****** gun at someone and then choosing not to fire. Could it have been conveyed better? Oh, hell yeah. Preferably not in flashback. But this is an argument over what's on the screen versus what some people are seeing. I have a lot of issues with TLJ, so I'm no apologist. But that's one scene where objective versus subjective is pretty easily cleared up and I don't get why it's still a thing.

I think the difference in your assessment is that you can at least acknowledge that the set up for certain elements of the film could have been done differently.

OK, having read this explanation, I can see that now. Which means I also agree with the notion that it's a failure of the film itself in presenting this scene the way it did that so many of us misunderstand and misinterpret it as we do.

 

[DarthWilder]

That is, so not analogous to deliberately pointing a loaded and ****** gun at someone and then choosing not to fire.

I actually find it quite analogous. A responsible, trained firearm owner does not draw his weapon unless he intends to use it. Substitute: "...the direction of Ben's thoughts was so horrific he drew and ignited ****** his lightsaber gun to end the threat without being consciously aware of his reaction, the sound seemed to pull him back to himself and he looked down at the lit saber loaded gun in some confusion..."

That would be considered criminal (and nutty) behavior if he was a gun owner. If he drew his gun due to a legitimate threat (what's in Ben's head?), then Luke in fact did choose not to fire after drawing his weapon.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

DarthWilder, I don't know how many gun owners practice Zen Pistol, where they let the moment work through them when their mind is distracted and draw, cock, and aim without being aware of it until the last second. If it's more than zero, that's terrifying. The whole pojnt I'm trying to make is deliberate versus unconscious, not the physicality of the actions themselves. The fact that Luke was so distracted he didn't even notice he'd acted or how.

 

[DarthWilder]

I get what you're saying. But his actions are deliberate, otherwise, it belies that Luke isn't very Zen himself. In my mind, a trained individual does not draw weapons unconsciously.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

And thus we're back around to the Force acting through people, "let go your conscious self", and all the other relevant in-universe stuff that's going on. That's the Dark Side acting through Luke while he's so utterly distracted by what Ben's dreaming about that he isn't aware of what his body (particularly his cybernetic right hand) is doing while he's "out". And back around to "was there a clearer way to present what was supposed to be gleaned from that scene?", too.

 

[Bigdaddy]

And thus we're back around to the Force acting through people, "let go your conscious self", and all the other relevant in-universe stuff that's going on. That's the Dark Side acting through Luke while he's so utterly distracted by what Ben's dreaming about that he isn't aware of what his body (particularly his cybernetic right hand) is doing while he's "out". And back around to "was there a clearer way to present what was supposed to be gleaned from that scene?", too.

This comes back to the "Will of The Force" which for me is is just a lazy writer's way of getting a character to act "out of character" and rob them of their personal choices.
The ST should be the WTF trilogy.
Will of The Force, it will solve all the problems.

 

[Joek3rr]

I could see why some think the film doesn't have the clarity it needed in that scene.

My only thing, and I'm sure they talked about this. Is your having a vision within a flashback scene. That's maybe getting a little convoluted. I'm sure they felt they could convey the same story by using sound, dialogue, and acting.

 

[Joek3rr]

So bear that in mind when I say I have no idea how people are seeing that scene in TLJ as "Luke contemplating murdering Ben". I've seen it multiple times, heard the dialogue, and from first viewing opening night to most recent it plays the same for me: He's felt the darkness in Ben, it's especially bad one night and draws him to Ben's room, whether he already had his lightsaber on him or automatically picked it up on his way past I can't say (but presume the former, as he was fully dressed, not in his jammies), looked into Ben's dreams -- or rather, couldn't help but see them when he was that close, the direction of Ben's thoughts was so horrific he drew and ignited his lightsaber to end the threat without being consciously aware of his reaction, the sound seemed to pull him back to himself and he looked down at the lit saber in some confusion, looked back up at Ben and saw him awake and looking at him, and Ben reacted before he could say or do anything further.

Isn't that kinda how Luke describes it to Rey?

 

[Joek3rr]

I don't think you'll get it from Joek3rr, TLJ is the Will of the Force! I'm curious if he considered Luke to be a murderous Darksider before TLJ though. If I viewed the character that way I don't think I would have held on to my SW love for 40+ years. Why the heck would kids want to play Luke if he's on the edge of slaughtering people at any moment?

I never saw Luke quite that way before TLJ. But at the same time, something always bothered me when I was young that people would glorify his actions. Even me. I would justify even glorify why Luke was fighting his father, why was trying to kill the Emperor. Heck even why he had to leave Dagobah. And mind you I couldn't understand why he failed the Dark Side cave test. In my young mind, he defeated Vader, and that was a good thing.

I didn't start to piece what was really going until I was listening to the ROTJ score. The piece named 'The Dark Side Beckons'. It started to click. Then TLJ came out. I watched all of the all the films in order. And suddenly it all clicked for me. Suddenly I understood what Luke was doing in ESB and ROTJ wasn't supposed to be good. It was supposed to bad. And frankly I love Luke more then ever. Because here's a guy a struggles with the Dark Side. Temptations are put in front of him. But he always in the end rises above those temptations. For me that's what makes him a hero, and my favorite Star Wars character. Plus I love the parallels with his father, but also the contrasts. His presented with similar situations. But unlike his father he doesn't succumb to the temptations of the Dark Side.

 

[Psab keel]

I could see why some think the film doesn't have the clarity it needed in that scene.

My only thing, and I'm sure they talked about this. Is your having a vision within a flashback scene. That's maybe getting a little convoluted. I'm sure they felt they could convey the same story by using sound, dialogue, and acting.

I think this might be the closest you and I will ever see eye to eye on this. Thank you for sharing. I truly appreciate it. I really mean that! : )

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I'm sorry but you are so far away from the truth.

First. Luke does indeed know that Vader is his father. And he is tempted to kill his own father. And for what? He threatens to turn his sister. Not to kill her. To turn her.

You were talking about the visions that led him to Cloud City. At that point he did not know Vader was his father. When Vader does threaten to kill Leia, at that point Luke is completely justified trying to kill him and is acting in defense, as a Jedi Knight.

Second. He isn't tempted to kill his nephew because he was "thinking about going to the Dark Side." Ben had already turned. "I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it."

So if Luke is willing to kill his father for threatening to turn his sister. Is so far a stretch that he might be tempted for a few seconds to kill his nephew in order to save his sister, Han, Chewie, Artoo, Threepeio, the Resistance, his students? I mean look at the lengths his father was willing to go in order to save Padmé's.

I seriously doubt the Jedi condone killing someone before they have actually committed any violence. That is VERY Dark Side.

 

[Joek3rr]

You were talking about the visions that led him to Cloud City. At that point he did not know Vader was his father. When Vader does threaten to kill Leia, at that point Luke is completely justified trying to kill him and is acting in defense, as a Jedi Knight.



I seriously doubt the Jedi condone killing someone before they have actually committed any violence. That is VERY Dark Side.

My bad. I should have clarified. I was talking about ESB, then ROTJ. Hence the ROTJ gifs.

Also Vader never ever threatens to kill Leia. Only to turn her.
"If you will not turn.....then perhaps she will."
"NEVER!!!!!!" At which point Luke is filled with rage, and mercilessly attacks his father, after he just got telling him, twice, "I will not fight you."

 

[Joek3rr]

Came across a cool picture on Pinterest

Pin on Star Wars

This Pin was discovered by Honza Herrmann. Discover (and save!) your own Pins on Pinterest.

pin.it

 

[vader45]

I will say I agree with Joek3err here.

The Dark side is like addiction. One can beat addiction but the urges will never go away. I know this from personal experience.

The dark side will always exist and always be an option for any given situation like urges to act on an addiction will always be there.

OT Luke actually acted on the Dark side urges and resulted in cutting off his father's hands. That's when he came to his senses.

TLJ Luke came to his senses on this urge before acting on it. So he has progressed and came a long way.

 

[ThreadSketch]

Tonight's ESB screening was a wee bit of a letdown - the audience was surprisingly quiet, no applause or hollering or much laughter at the funny bits, and the movie glitched 3 times, freezing up and then skipping ahead up to a half minute. Oh well. But I did get some shots of the things sprinkled around the lobby:

(I actually have that plush Yoda at home, found him at Goodwill!)

Please excuse the blurriness on these, my camera automatically detects lighting settings and does longer exposures in low lighting, and it's difficult to hold it perfectly still while it's doing that:

(Can you spot all the action figures?)

(Seriously tempted to pick up that print if they're available next week.)

Just a fun night out with Dear Ol' Darth Dad. I had some tan pants and boots and a leather belt to put together with my vintage 1980 SW Fan Club Bespin jacket. (I stupidly didn't realize the ESB SE poster was nearby, but you can kind of see the edge of it here on the left.)

Next week: THE LAST LASER MASTER.

 

[Psab keel]

Hahahaha. Laser master!

It looks like a fun little local theater. Plus being able to see them on the big screen is great! I'm glad you had a good time.