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Joek3rr
Master Member
So you believe Ben's twisted version of events?
Where does Pablo say that Luke didn't contemplate killing his nephew? He doesn't say that. "He[Luke] never tried to kill him." This is true. He was tempted, he even drew his lightsaber, but he never swung, he never carried out that action. He came to his senses before that. "I think the impass is you equate his actions[Luke going into Ben's hut] as an attempt to kill. I don't." This is also true. Luke didn't go in there with the idea of killing his nephew.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Yes, yes he is. And there's a slight chance that Luke being tempted to kill his nephew also originated with George. I only say that because Doug Chiang back when they were starting work on TFA mentions that "He[Luke] has always had this potential dark side in him, being that Darth Vader was his father. So he's really struggling with that." Kinda an interesting thing to say. Unless Luke was going to be shown struggling with doing dark side deeds.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Okay so walk into a sleeping persons room with a loaded gun, cock it, point it at them and then explain to a jury of your peers you weren't trying to kill them. Riiiight!
It's just rediculous to try and defend that type of activity, even Matlock wouldn't take that case!
Yes Pablo is using the same excuse that Joek3rr has by putting the onus of Luke's exile on Lucas. Which is irrelevant because as I've pointed out time and again that there were other ways to handle the issue rather than the way it was. Plus bad ideas are still bad, no matter who thinks of them.
Also is tearing down Luke as a character thematically a good structure to use to explain where Ben ended up?
Wouldn't it just have been more effective as sztriki said if Ben had betrayed Luke without the whole subterfuge that Luke was somehow responsible for any of it?
It just feels like an unnecessary layer added solely because Rian thought it would be contrarian rather than it being in service to the story.
Joek3rr Luke didn't go in the tent with the intention of killing him. No. But once he saw what was in Bens mind he went so far as to draw his weapon, provoked by nothing more than a scary vision which may or may not have come to pass. Luke should have known better by then, especially after everything he went through in the OT and in the 30 plus years between ROTJ and the ST.
By making the same mistake it regressed the character because he hasn't learned from his mistakes. Thematically it's a bummer of an idea.
Also is tearing down Luke as a character thematically a good structure to use to explain where Ben ended up?
Wouldn't it just have been more effective as sztriki said if Ben had betrayed Luke without the whole subterfuge that Luke was somehow responsible for any of it?
It just feels like an unnecessary layer added solely because Rian thought it would be contrarian rather than it being in service to the story.
Joek3rr Luke didn't go in the tent with the intention of killing him. No. But once he saw what was in Bens mind he went so far as to draw his weapon, provoked by nothing more than a scary vision which may or may not have come to pass. Luke should have known better by then, especially after everything he went through in the OT and in the 30 plus years between ROTJ and the ST.
By making the same mistake it regressed the character because he hasn't learned from his mistakes. Thematically it's a bummer of an idea.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Bigdaddy
Master Member
LOL!
Joek3rr
Master Member
Watch the scene, he's staring "through" Ben.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
I said "LOL"
Nothing can change the past. The Last Jedi exists and to me not even a fan edit can save it. All I've ever argued for is to consider, even on a purely intellectual level, that Rian Johnson's film wasn't the ONLY logical continuation of the story. That they could have done something else and in my opinion something far better. You may not agree, but I just want the acknowledgment that it could have been handled differently. I think that's all the haters have ever wanted was to be acknowledged that we thought it could have been done differently.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Considering how visceral Force visions are. It's not just "a scary vision". And considering how Luke reacted the last time he had a vision.
Yeah I know. I just don't know how else to describe that Luke is mentally in La La Land.I said "LOL"
Bigdaddy
Master Member
I don't think you'll get it from Joek3rr, TLJ is the Will of the Force! I'm curious if he considered Luke to be a murderous Darksider before TLJ though. If I viewed the character that way I don't think I would have held on to my SW love for 40+ years. Why the heck would kids want to play Luke if he's on the edge of slaughtering people at any moment?
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Yes, because we are all carbon copies of our parents. George did much better before he attempted all his lame "ryming" garbage. It never worked and during his early years there were people who were willing to tell him when his ideas sucked.
Joek3rr
Master Member
But he's got that mighty Skywalker blood. And Luke's grandfather is technically Palpatine.......
sztriki
Sr Member
Thought so, so Psab already beat me to it but my immediate and pretty much standarc response is “who cares?”. After 3 horrendous SW prequels, a botched Indy4 and numerous revisits of the OT I hope I will be excused not to consider George the infallible be-all-end-all storyteller.
Wait wait wait...you said that before I just want to confirm something. Are you using Uncle Owen’s comment to justify that Luke has a lot of Vader in him therefore the whole scene we’re chewing on just falls in line with everything? A comment that clearly applied to the fact that Luke wants adventures instead of farming? A quote from a guy who prob knows f all about the Force, according to canon saw Anakin once, didn’t even know that he murdered tuskens and prob doesn’t even know that Anakin is Vader (although I’m sure there’s 3 comics and a novel revolving around just that)? And most of all a throwaway quote from a movie from 1976 when the idea that Vader and Anakin are the same was not even around?
Joek3rr
Master Member
Cause George is the creator. Like it or not.
Actually Uncle Owen's line is "that's what I'm afraid of."
RodanAZ
Well-Known Member
TFA created some rather large plot holes. TLJ should have explained a number of these in order to create a cohesive story arc for the trilogy. Instead, it doubled down, enlarging those holes leaving us with no rational explanation of the events leading up to the confrontation between Luke and Ben. It based Luke's entire exile on one moment, that for most of us, was totally inconsistent with his character's growth through the OT... we're supposed to belive he's suddenly the impetuous teenager again, having gained nothing through 30 years of life experience. When you set aside rationalizations and wishful interpretation, TLJ was simply a failure of storytelling. Good writing could have given us some backstory on TFA, and moved all of the characters along their arcs. Instead, it destroyed beloved characters and simply muddied the waters for the trilogy moving forward.
Luke Skywalker was a true hero through the OT, and for me a beloved character since I first saw him on the big screen in '77. The treatment of his character in TLJ was simply disgusting. And for many of us, there's no amount of rationalization, Twitter quoting, or YT videos that will explain it away. Like others here, I respect differing opinions, but having the same thing paraded out page after page is getting a little nauseating. There are plenty of TLJ threads in which to have that discussion.
Luke Skywalker was a true hero through the OT, and for me a beloved character since I first saw him on the big screen in '77. The treatment of his character in TLJ was simply disgusting. And for many of us, there's no amount of rationalization, Twitter quoting, or YT videos that will explain it away. Like others here, I respect differing opinions, but having the same thing paraded out page after page is getting a little nauseating. There are plenty of TLJ threads in which to have that discussion.
sztriki
Sr Member
And that makes him infallible and everything he does or comes up with is perfectly thought out and makes sense?
Btw what do you mean by “cause”? There was no question in my original post I merely said my response is “who cares” when a storyline’s or an idea’s “quality” is justified by pulling the George card.
You’re right, pardon me. Forgot that Beru is the expert on the topic.
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Bigdaddy
Master Member
He actually isn't, that's part of the myth of Star Wars. The reason SW and ESB are such great films is because of the many talented people that worked together to create it. Conversely the biggest problems in ROTJ are a result of George not listening to people that made the previous 2 films a success.
It's a disservice to all those people to heap all the glory on GL. Frankly I'm glad he got the ball rolling with Star Wars and he seems like a nice person but his track record in films is pretty bad.
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