Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Joek3rr]

Ok here we go again. Unless Disney is completely ignoring everything to do with the Jedi that Lucas set down, balance does not mean equal!!! Lucas said that the JEDI believe balance is the universe being completely under the influence of the Light Side. When the Sith are destroyed, their influence over the Force is gone so it's in balance. Again from the JEDI's point of view. It doesn't mean the Dark Side is gone, just that it doesn't hold sway over the galaxy. It has absolutely nothing to do with the sides of the Force being equal or ying/yang or whatever else. If that were true there's no way the Force could be unbalanced by two Sith. Think about it.

Balance is equal parts Light and Dark. That's everywhere in Star Wars.

Mortis Yin-Yang, balance is the middle between Light and Dark.

Mortis gods, balance is between the Light and the Dark

"Prime" Jedi, equal parts Light and Dark

And George had been saying that balance is both Light and Dark.

• "The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999
• "In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything." -George Lucas, TimeMagazine article, 2002
• "The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of naturethat I wanted to include in the film." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
• "The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980
• "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

No way the Force could be unbalanced by two Sith? Yet that's exactly what we see. When Yoda says that they[the Jedi order] was blind to not sense the creation of the Clone army. Mace suggests that they should inform the Senate that "our ability to use the Force had diminished." Wait why? Yoda answers that at the end of the film. "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen." Two* Sith Lords had swung the balance of the Force so out of whack, that the Jedi couldn't tell they were sitting 10 feet away from Dark Lord himself.

*technically it's many groups of Sith over a 1,000 years, plus there was a Sith shrine under the Jedi temple.

 

[Frogfreak]

Balance is equal parts Light and Dark. That's everywhere in Star Wars.
View attachment 1038476
Mortis Yin-Yang, balance is the middle between Light and Dark.
View attachment 1038477
Mortis gods, balance is between the Light and the Dark
View attachment 1038478
"Prime" Jedi, equal parts Light and Dark

And George had been saying that balance is both Light and Dark.

• "The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999
• "In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything." -George Lucas, TimeMagazine article, 2002
• "The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of naturethat I wanted to include in the film." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
• "The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980
• "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

No way the Force could be unbalanced by two Sith? Yet that's exactly what we see. When Yoda says that they[the Jedi order] was blind to not sense the creation of the Clone army. Mace suggests that they should inform the Senate that "our ability to use the Force had diminished." Wait why? Yoda answers that at the end of the film. "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen." Two* Sith Lords had swung the balance of the Force so out of whack, that the Jedi couldn't tell they were sitting 10 feet away from Dark Lord himself.

*technically it's many groups of Sith over a 1,000 years, plus there was a Sith shrine under the Jedi temple.

Wow! Way to present!

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

The force was not unbalanced by two sith, it was unbalanced by the Jedi themselves. Rather than protecting the balance, they became more of a tool of the political aspect of the Republic. It was this unbalance that caused them to lose their control of the force and made them unaware of the return of the Sith.

 

[Joek3rr]

The force was not unbalanced by two sith, it was unbalanced by the Jedi themselves. Rather than protecting the balance, they became more of a tool of the political aspect of the Republic. It was this unbalance that caused them to lose their control of the force and made them unaware of the return of the Sith.

Hmmm that's an interesting perspective. I rather like that notion. That would actually really make sense why then Anakin thinks he's fulfilling his destiny by eliminating the Jedi.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

You see hints of the problems with the Jedi order in the PT like when Mace dismisses Qui’s claim that he ran into a Sith stating they would know if the Sith returned. They also speak of the attitude problems of many of the younger Jedi. You also see the conflict between Jedi such as Qui’s continued run ins with the council and Dooku who probably felt similar but it led to him falling to the dark side. I think you can also find instances in the Clone Wars too. Ultimately I think Palpatine was able to spin these true problems to help him sway people like Dooku and Anakin.

I believe Anakin is fulfilling his destiny when he wipes out the Jedi because they are part of the imbalance. I don’t think he was consciously attempting to fulfill a destiny, he was simply overwhelmed with fear and hate in an attempt to save Padme. He then completed the prophecy when he killed the Emperor.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Balance is equal parts Light and Dark. That's everywhere in Star Wars.
View attachment 1038476
Mortis Yin-Yang, balance is the middle between Light and Dark.
View attachment 1038477
Mortis gods, balance is between the Light and the Dark
View attachment 1038478
"Prime" Jedi, equal parts Light and Dark

And George had been saying that balance is both Light and Dark.

• "The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999
• "In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything." -George Lucas, TimeMagazine article, 2002
• "The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of naturethat I wanted to include in the film." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
• "The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980
• "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

No way the Force could be unbalanced by two Sith? Yet that's exactly what we see. When Yoda says that they[the Jedi order] was blind to not sense the creation of the Clone army. Mace suggests that they should inform the Senate that "our ability to use the Force had diminished." Wait why? Yoda answers that at the end of the film. "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen." Two* Sith Lords had swung the balance of the Force so out of whack, that the Jedi couldn't tell they were sitting 10 feet away from Dark Lord himself.

*technically it's many groups of Sith over a 1,000 years, plus there was a Sith shrine under the Jedi temple.

Again see my last post. Balance of the Force is a JEDI PROPHECY. It has nothing to do with the literal definition of balance. Lucas has said this. We all know there are two sides to the Force, that is irrelevant to what the prophecy says. Lucas himself, said the prophecy is the LIGHT SIDE having influence over the galaxy. As to your last point, what I actually said was "If that were true there's no way the Force could be unbalanced by two Sith. " Meaning that if what people misunderstand as balance is true, THEN there would be no way two Sith could make the Force unbalanced because there were more Jedi.

 

[Joek3rr]

Again see my last post. Balance of the Force is a JEDI PROPHECY. It has nothing to do with the literal definition of balance. Lucas has said this. We all know there are two sides to the Force, that is irrelevant to what the prophecy says. Lucas himself, said the prophecy is the LIGHT SIDE having influence over the galaxy. As to your last point, what I actually said was "If that were true there's no way the Force could be unbalanced by two Sith. " Meaning that if what people misunderstand as balance is true, THEN there would be no way two Sith could make the Force unbalanced because there were more Jedi.

Have you seen the Mortis arc from The Clone Wars?

 

[Frogfreak]

Man I love the 3d clone wars series!

 

[Bigdaddy]

This argument persists because of inconsistent lazy writing.

 

[ThreadSketch]

Late to the party, but...how did y'all manage to have a discussion involving both pizza and Star Wars and NOT bring up Pizza the Hutt?

 

[Psab keel]

And a lack of understanding about the definition of the word balance.

I get what Lucas was trying to say with regard to the Jedi concept of balance but again it's a convoluted mess of an idea, poorly executed. Not to mention it makes the Jedi kind of stupid if they don't even know the definition. Just have them be concerned with defeating the dark side and forget this entire idea of balance altogether.

To my mind it's one more example of how George took a simple story concept that works and made it unnecessarily complicated because he kept changing his mind about the original idea.

Those images from clone wars and tlj are so on the nose you might as well just call the Force Buddhism. I mean they made no attempt to hide it whatsoever. Way to go idiots! I'm cool with the idea being essentially the same but the imagery just pulls me right out of a galaxy far, far away and into the real world, which defeats the whole purpose of escapist entertainmet.

I never cared for those symbols in the Star Wars universe because they belong to our world, not theirs. It would be the equivalent of having Anakin wear a crucifix. We get it, he's the chosen one! Lol

Plus having physical embodiments of the Force itself in the form of three gods (possibly in an attempt to mimic the imagery of the Christian trinity) changes the idea of the force being an impersonal energy field generated by living things into a diety. Two opposing ideas. You can't have both in the story and have it work. It has to be one or the other.

 

[d_jedi1]

My understanding was that the Ashla Jedi and Bogan Sith were both bastardizations of the original Jedi Bendu teachings.

 

[Frogfreak]

Late to the party, but...how did y'all manage to have a discussion involving both pizza and Star Wars and NOT bring up Pizza the Hutt?

View attachment 1038572

this is so right!

 

[Joek3rr]

And a lack of understanding about the definition of the word balance.

I get what Lucas was trying to say with regard to the Jedi concept of balance but again it's a convoluted mess of an idea, poorly executed. Not to mention it makes the Jedi kind of stupid if they don't even know the definition. Just have them be concerned with defeating the dark side and forget this entire idea of balance altogether.

To my mind it's one more example of how George took a simple story concept that works and made it unnecessarily complicated because he kept changing his mind about the original idea.

Those images from clone wars and tlj are so on the nose you might as well just call the Force Buddhism. I mean they made no attempt to hide it whatsoever. Way to go idiots! I'm cool with the idea being essentially the same but the imagery just pulls me right out of a galaxy far, far away and into the real world, which defeats the whole purpose of escapist entertainmet.

I never cared for those symbols in the Star Wars universe because they belong to our world, not theirs. It would be the equivalent of having Anakin wear a crucifix. We get it, he's the chosen one! Lol

Plus having physical embodiments of the Force itself in the form of three gods (possibly in an attempt to mimic the imagery of the Christian trinity) changes the idea of the force being an impersonal energy field generated by living things into a diety. Two opposing ideas. You can't have both in the story and have it work. It has to be one or the other.

For me anyways, I think it's pretty clear that the Force is not just an impersonal energy field. If have a Chosen One, you have to have a chooser. The Force is explicitly said to have a will. And Obi-Wan, Vader, and the Emperor speak of destiny. Which infers some sort of power that's controlling everything. And George straight up said, that the Force "controls individuals, yet we have free will."

 

[Psab keel]

That's a HUGE part of the disconnect between the original films and the prequels. Trying to reconcile the dual nature of those concepts into one story presents major problems.

It was established in the first movies that the Force was more of an Eastern idea of impersonal energy that influences/ can be influenced by people attuned to it. It was even generated by the life force of all the beings living in that galaxy. These statements come directly from Obi-Wan and Yoda when teaching Luke the ways of the Force.

Then in the prequels George changed his mind and made Anakin the physical manifestation of the Force itself. He was the fulfillment of a prophecy that turned him into a Messianic figure whose entire existence was predicated on bringing balance to the Force. As if the characters of this galaxy were simply pawns in a game of chess to fulfill whatever ends the Force diety chose.

Those ideas are at odds with one another and create all kinds of problems for the narrative. Midichlorians, etc. Just further examples of George changing his mind all the time.

Either the Force is a god. Or the Force is energy. It can't be both. By definition it can't be personal AND impersonal. I get that his intention was to make the concept open to interpretation so that one could infer whatever psychological /mythological construct made sense to the viewer, but make up your mind George.

That's why I find arguments about George's "original concept" deceptive in a lot of ways because he had tons of ideas and like all writers, those premises changed constantly to suit his interests. Rather than building upon a consistent idea and fleshing it out to fit within the context that has already established he just changed it completely. What's irritating is that he keeps telling the public that was his original idea when it would be more honest to say that he changed the mind along the way.

It's all down to the writing. A really good writer can find a way to push the narrative forward by building on the foundation laid out at the beginning of the story. A less experienced writer changes their mind halfway through because they don't know how to develop their ideas perhaps because the ideas were structured in a way that they simply couldn't be developed any further.

My view is that the latter is most likely the case.

Or he could have made the entire conflict between the Sith and the Jedi stem from the opposing sides different interpretation of the Force. One side thought of it as a god, the other as energy and those two sides caused the conflict. Or perhaps that would be too close to reality in the conflict between the literal interpretation of religion vs. the symbolic interpretation.

But it is an interesting idea.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Lucas says a lot of conflicting things. I love the man but he says conflicting things all the time like how many episodes made up his saga. Maybe its just that he has so many things bouncing around in his head, he just can't keep it all straight.

Mortis was an ethereal realm within the Force. What happened there was not the end all be all of the Force in the universe. Why do I say this? Because Mortis was brought to balance when all three of the Force Weilders (Father, Son, Daughter) died. But we also know that as far as the Star Wars saga was concerned their was still imbalance in the Force. So even though Mortis might be a conduit in which the Force flowed, it was not the control center. The children may have embodied the dark and light side but it was simply their interruption of the Force within their realm.

Furthermore, the Mortis story really confirms that balance is the natural course of things and not the control of light and dark. The father was in an eternal struggled to keep light and dark in balance. But we see that balance was only achieved on Mortis when neither tried to control the force. This is why I feel that the Jedi are meant to guard the balance not influence it.

 

[Psab keel]

All of that conceptually is interesting but it's too esoteric. Plus having three characters created just to tell that story, when this concept could have been expressed between Anakin and Obi-Wan feels like another unnecessary layer.

Though it certainly proves how fertile George's imagination truly is and perhaps that's part of our obsession with this sandbox of his.

The battle between Light and Dark is eternal. No conflict, no story. The only way to bring true balance to the Force is for time to end, which means the story is over.

I mean if you look at the mythic construct Joseph Campbell talks constantly about when we are in the field of time we are living in a world of duality and that it's only in an eternal state that duality ceases to exist.

 

[Joek3rr]

That's a HUGE part of the disconnect between the original films and the prequels. Trying to reconcile the dual nature of those concepts into one story presents major problems.

It was established in the first movies that the Force was more of an Eastern idea of impersonal energy that influences/ can be influenced by people attuned to it. It was even generated by the life force of all the beings living in that galaxy. These statements come directly from Obi-Wan and Yoda when teaching Luke the ways of the Force.

Then in the prequels George changed his mind and made Anakin the physical manifestation of the Force itself. He was the fulfillment of a prophecy that turned him into a Messianic figure whose entire existence was predicated on bringing balance to the Force. As if the characters of this galaxy were simply pawns in a game of chess to fulfill whatever ends the Force diety chose.

Those ideas are at odds with one another and create all kinds of problems for the narrative. Midichlorians, etc. Just further examples of George changing his mind all the time.

Either the Force is a god. Or the Force is energy. It can't be both. By definition it can't be personal AND impersonal. I get that his intention was to make the concept open to interpretation so that one could infer whatever psychological /mythological construct made sense to the viewer, but make up your mind George.

That's why I find arguments about George's "original concept" deceptive in a lot of ways because he had tons of ideas and like all writers, those premises changed constantly to suit his interests. Rather than building upon a consistent idea and fleshing it out to fit within the context that has already established he just changed it completely. What's irritating is that he keeps telling the public that was his original idea when it would be more honest to say that he changed the mind along the way.

It's all down to the writing. A really good writer can find a way to push the narrative forward by building on the foundation laid out at the beginning of the story. A less experienced writer changes their mind halfway through because they don't know how to develop their ideas perhaps because the ideas were structured in a way that they simply couldn't be developed any further.

My view is that the latter is most likely the case.

Or he could have made the entire conflict between the Sith and the Jedi stem from the opposing sides different interpretation of the Force. One side thought of it as a god, the other as energy and those two sides caused the conflict. Or perhaps that would be too close to reality in the conflict between the literal interpretation of religion vs. the symbolic interpretation.

But it is an interesting idea.

That's just the thing if you look, it's there in the Original Trilogy as well. Or at least I see it

Obi-Wan in ANH says to Luke "Your destiny lies along a different path from mine." The belief in destiny is the belief that the future is preordained or predestined. For that to happen you have to a power or force that facilitates this. Or you have random chance, and luck.

And consider how Han answers Luke in ANH. When Luke asks him if he believes in the Force. Han responds that he doesn't believe in a "one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny." So that means that there are people that do believe in an all powerful force that controls everything.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Have you seen the Mortis arc from The Clone Wars?

Yep. That's irrelevant to the Prophecy because it was around before that happened and presumably the only Jedi that know about Mortis were Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ahsoka. Again it's what the JEDI believe, not what you think it is or anything else. It's a Jedi Prophecy. It doesn't even mean in the scope of the universe that they were even right, just that they believed that.

 

[Joek3rr]

Yep. That's irrelevant to the Prophecy because it was around before that happened and presumably the only Jedi that know about Mortis were Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ahsoka. Again it's what the JEDI believe, not what you think it is or anything else. It's a Jedi Prophecy. It doesn't even mean in the scope of the universe that they were even right, just that they believed that.

I think the ancient prophecy refers to balance being both Light and Dark. But the Clone Wars era Jedi may have interpreted it as only or mostly Light and no or little Dark. The ancient Jedi seem to have viewed the Force very differently then the Clone Wars era Jedi.