Lets talk all things Star Wars

[ThreadSketch]

 

[sztriki]

I'm not even going to go see it. I've got enough to complain about with TLJ.

I won't be seeing it either.

Me neither.

I’ll let you guys know how it was.

 

[BTTUK]

Why does any debate about Star Wars, have to include the phrases "you guys". Why not just refer to a specific person to whom you refer, rather than continually have to bunch everyone together into one group, which really doesn't represent what all of them think or feel?

Also the whole "ST apologists" is a nonsense too. It strikes me as a back handed and snide dig at people, simply for liking something you don't.

Both of those things, for me, really ruin the interesting talking points that both "sides" bring to the discussions.

 

[sztriki]

Why does any debate about Star Wars, have to include the phrases "you guys". Why not just refer to a specific person to whom you refer, rather than continually have to bunch everyone together into one group, which really doesn't represent what all of them think or feel?

But...that's just what I did. Like that I quoted all specific people who said they won't see it...? Isn't that referring to specific persons?

 

[Psab keel]

I think you guys is simply a form of shorthand and nothing more. I don't see that as being a big deal. But I don't feel any of us claim to speak for all of us. I know I speak for myself and if someone happens to agree with me then so be it.

I don't find the term apologist to be any more insulting than being referred to as "fans". Questioning some one's dedication to a fictional film or any art for that matter is really nothing more than moral posturing because it's all subjective anyway. None of us is any better than any other and often I find that people who like the new material are quick to use this kind of remark as dismissive of valid criticism or an unwillingness to be open to the opposing perspective even if they ultimately disagree in the end. I also acknowledge that not everyone who likes the ST is an apologist and it's those who are more reasonable in their critiques who I often find common ground with. Just like with any heated debate there are always going to be varying degrees of opinions, some more extreme than others.

There are clearly some apologists among us willing to overlook anything just for the love of the brand, no matter how absurd or illogical, just like there are those who are unwilling to give credit to the elements of the new films that actually work. This is just the reality of it.

To be fair there are some of us "haters" who are staunchly against anything new or are unwilling to hear out the other side, so I'm not trying to suggest that isn't the case. Often we both speak in generalities. There are varying degrees within Fandom.

There are clearly sides to the the discussion so to say otherwise feels kind of silly. Admitting your bias also doesn't make anyone's position more or less valid. Again we are discussing opinions but I think it's good to remind ourselves to try and remain respectful as best we can and equally important is to remain sincere. There are moments where one of us can post something meant to act as levity and it can be taken the wrong way but I think that often has more to do with the written nature of a discussion forum than it does with being intentionally cruel. Tone in written form often doesn't always have the same inflection that actual speech can which can affect someone's response to it. Perhaps we should keep this in mind.

As long as at the end of the day we try and keep out tempers in check and acknowledge our faults openly when we slip up I think the discussion can be enriching.

I may feel a certain way and strongly so but I never claim to be speaking for all who agree with me and I'm sure those who do will chime in if they have a different perspective.

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it, the Fandom is my family. I may fight with my family but at the end of the day I don't disregard them completely over that. We are all here for the same reason which is a mutual love of this crazy, goofy and imaginative space movie.

I think as long as either perspective tries their best to be respectful then I don't have any problems with the debate.

 

[BTTUK]

But...that's just what I did. Like that I quoted all specific people who said they won't see it...? Isn't that referring to specific persons?

Ironically, I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, so it genuinely wasn't trying to call anyone out on anything.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I really like this...

Disney's 'The Mandalorian' to explore the untold origins of the First Order

New 'Star Wars' series to fill in some gaps between 'Return of the Jedi' and 'The Force Awakens.'

ew.com

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Just in the nick of should-have-done-this-in-2015-instead-of-TFA. Can't wait to finally see something about that. I'd wondered why nothing was covering that gap between the Battle of Jakku and Bloodlines...

 

[Darth Fetty]

Who's the First Order? They are a military regime that came from the Empire determined reclaim the glory of the Empire. I would argue that it doesn't matter that they don't make it clear that they rose up in Unknown Regions.

They desperately needed to provide a background for what the First Order is. They are not a government based on what we've seen in the films. The New Republic is a government. So how does the First Order get funding for all those weapons, ships, soldiers, and giant sun-sucking planet laser? Who supports them? Why would anyone support them when there is already the New Republic? What is their ideology? Order?!

The Empire was an authoritarian empire. It's a simple concept and easy to accept. But when there is already a New Republic government, what does that make the First Order?

Who's Snoke? He's an ugly pale dude in charge of the First Order. That turned Ben. That's all we need to know, for right now.

Nooooo no no. Ugly dude flung Rey around the room like a rag doll. Not even Palpatine or any other Force user we've seen could do the things that this guy could do. When the Star Wars story already set up Palpatine as the most dangerous baddie in the galaxy and devoted an entire prequel trilogy to exploring his rise to power, yes, we most definitely need to know who the heck Snoke was since its jarring seeing such a supposedly powerful and influential figure come out of nowhere with no explanation.

 

[Joek3rr]

They desperately needed to provide a background for what the First Order is. They are not a government based on what we've seen in the films. The New Republic is a government. So how does the First Order get funding for all those weapons, ships, soldiers, and giant sun-sucking planet laser? Who supports them? Why would anyone support them when there is already the New Republic? What is their ideology? Order?!

The Empire was an authoritarian empire. It's a simple concept and easy to accept. But when there is already a New Republic government, what does that make the First Order?



Nooooo no no. Ugly dude flung Rey around the room like a rag doll. Not even Palpatine or any other Force user we've seen could do the things that this guy could do. When the Star Wars story already set up Palpatine as the most dangerous baddie in the galaxy and devoted an entire prequel trilogy to exploring his rise to power, yes, we most definitely need to know who the heck Snoke was since its jarring seeing such a supposedly powerful and influential figure come out of nowhere with no explanation.

Well if they arose from the ashes of the Empire....and the Empire had enough money to build two Death Stars. Resources just shifted around. And why is that such a big deal? I don't remember people needing to know where the Republic or the Separatist or the Empire got their money from. (I think good analogy here, would be...the First Order is to the Empire, as the Holy Roman Empire was to the Roman Empire)

And the First Order is very much a government. It is, in my opinion, like the Empire before it, an autocratic fascist regime.

Also you can have multiple governments ruling in the galaxy at the same time.

So he flung Rey around? Is that supposed to prove something? If you think that's some impressive show of power. Let me introduce you to Count Dooku. He Force choked, and flung a freakin' Jedi Master across the room. And gave Anakin a swift kick at the same time.

If you ask me Snoke is more bark than bite.

 

[Darth Fetty]

Well if they arose from the ashes of the Empire....and the Empire had enough money to build two Death Stars. Resources just shifted around. And why is that such a big deal? I don't remember people needing to know where the Republic or the Separatist or the Empire got their money from. (I think good analogy here, would be...the First Order is to the Empire, as the Holy Roman Empire was to the Roman Empire)

The Empire would get funding from taxes of course. They're a government. An authoritarian government, but a government nonetheless. Same as the Republic and the Separatists; taxes and already established economies.

But the First Order? How are they capable of doing anything they're doing? The New Republic superseded the Empire from what I gather, so how could the First Order take the Empire's resources? Do they actually have subjects and how did they gain control over these subjects in the first place? This is why for me their existence came so jarringly out of nowhere and we deserved some type of explanation for what they are and how they developed.

I don't think the Roman to Holy Roman Empire analogy works because where does that leave the New Republic?

And the First Order is very much a government. It is, in my opinion, like the Empire before it, an autocratic fascist regime.

Sell me on it.

So he flung Rey around? Is that supposed to prove something? If you think that's some impressive show of power. Let me introduce you to Count Dooku. He Force choked, and flung a freakin' Jedi Master across the room. And gave Anakin a swift kick at the same time.

It is impressive from the Count (and I completely forgot about that whole chapter in ROTS), but it still begs the question, where did Snoke learn any of this? Count Dooku was a former Jedi, master to Qui-Gon, and eventual apprentice to Darth Sidious. We learned this from bits and pieces from the movies. If we didn't, it would be really odd having some random old man being able to shoot lightning out his fingers.... So, Snoke? What's his deal and how does he fit into any of this?

 

[Psab keel]

Wouldn't it have been simpler to have the Resistance simply be the New Republic? This way the conflict is between the New Republic and the First Order (aka New Empire ) instead of adding an unnecessary layer by having three separate factions whose functions are not as clearly defined in the finished cut of the film vs having two distinct factions at war with one another. I think the simplicity of that would have worked better.

I don't need an explanation of the intricacies from the books because they aren't relevant to the discussion.

I like most people in a general audience am only concerned with the finished films. The only homework that should be required to see a movie in a series is to watch the other movies in the series, not read a book, or play a game, or read a comic.

 

[karmajay]

The Empire did not get all their money and materials from taxes. They just took over planets and put the population to work and stole the resources they needed. The FO did the same thing.

 

[karmajay]

I don't need an explanation of the intricacies from the books because they aren't relevant to the discussion. I like most people in a general audience am only concerned with the finished films. The only homework that should be required to see a movie in a series is to watch the other movies in the series, not read a book, or play a game, or read a comic.

At this point this is a silly comment. A huge chunk of stuff we "know" about the OT is through the media surrounding it over the course of decades. It is fine to for someone to say they aren't interested in other media but it can and does flesh out the details we see in the movies. There can be only so much exposition in the movies.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

There's a difference between fleshing out and required reading. We didn't need Shadows of the Empire to jump the gap between ESB and ROTJ, for instance. If you want to get down to it, we didn't even really need the Prequels, because a surface-simplistic, straight-narrative, high-concept story like Star Wars can have a lot of depth and complexity... but it's not required to comprehend what's going on. As I said a few posts back (I think in this thread), with the help of the well-worded opening crawl we came into Star Wars with all we needed to grasp the principal actors (in a non-show-biz sense) in the narrative.

Now that we've learned that The Mandalorian will be, in part, going into how the First Order got going, I am even more excited. I still feel like they needed to film all the live-action stuff for the Sequel Trilogy back when they did, but start the new content era right after ROTJ, with the SHattered Empire comic miniseries, the Aftermath book trilogy, and The Mandalorian, and hold off on the new films until the intervening period has been depicted a little. Otherwise it is still way too jarring a transition from the Ewok party to the beginning of TFA.

 

[Psab keel]

At this point this is a silly comment. A huge chunk of stuff we "know" about the OT is through the media surrounding it over the course of decades. It is fine to for someone to say they aren't interested in other media but it can and does flesh out the details we see in the movies. There can be only so much exposition in the movies.


Is it silly or merely an observation that with a little clarity or simplification the story could have been stronger. Besides for everyone seeing the OT in the theater during their original release most if not all of that ancillary material existed until after ROTJ. Nor am I negating the enriching nature of said material but if it's necessary to clear up lots of confusion I'd day there is a leak in the script.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

I like most people in a general audience am only concerned with the finished films. The only homework that should be required to see a movie in a series is to watch the other movies in the series, not read a book, or play a game, or read a comic.

Totally on board with you here, man. Supplemental material should be a complement to the films, to be consumed by those who wish to have that extra level of detail, or "trivia" knowledge. The not-overly-broad strokes of the films should be enough by themselves to not require immersion into all the other media. I can understand why they would want stuff to crossover from a sales standpoint--and if a person wants to get into it to that degree, great--but even geeks like us that take time out of our lives to talk about the minutae of the GFFA don't ALL want to get into everything made available. The films should absolutely do all the heavy lifting when it comes to essential info, or anything important enough to be more than just an, "Oh, that's neat" factoid.

 

[BTTUK]

I never understood the issue with Snoke.

Back in the day all we knew about the Emperor was that he was supposed to be powerful, yet all we saw was seeing the future incorrectly, cool bit of lightning from his fingers, and getting thrown over a hand rail. Never struck me as a really badass or even mildly frightening character as a child back then

 

[BTTUK]

Totally on board with you here, man. Supplemental material should be a complement to the films, to be consumed by those who wish to have that extra level of detail, or "trivia" knowledge. The not-overly-broad strokes of the films should be enough by themselves to not require immersion into all the other media. I can understand why they would want stuff to crossover from a sales standpoint--and if a person wants to get into it to that degree, great--but even geeks like us that take time out of our lives to talk about the minutae of the GFFA don't ALL want to get into everything made available. The films should absolutely do all the heavy lifting when it comes to essential info, or anything important enough to be more than just an, "Oh, that's neat" factoid.

Why *should* it. You think that, but that doesn't mean it should be

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

Why *should* it. You think that, but that doesn't mean it should be

By definition, "supplemental" material should serve as is an addition to something else. This saga is based upon an ongoing series of films. Unless we’re going to change gears and make the films the supplements, then it’s only right that the lion’s share of the narrative be clearly presented there.