Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Joek3rr]

If you were to take a person who had never seen Star Wars before and knew nothing about it you would show them A New Hope. It's self contained in it's structure because George wasn't confident that he would even be allowed to make his planned sequels so he wrapped the story up enough to have a very satisfying conclusion. As a general audience member I'd say that even if they didn't care for it, they could at least credit it as being a cohesive story.

If you were to try the same scenario and show them The Last Jedi instead, without showing them any of the other films, you would lose people because it's the 8th chapter in a series that relies on the previous installments to give them some sort of context. Without seeing the other films you'd have no idea who these characters are and what the plot is.

I'm trying to frame this in a way that is objective for the scenario you are posing and not delve into my own issues with this movie.

Naturally. 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are going to be like that a bit. Due to their nature of existing after ANH.

I was going to bring this up later at some point. But I always get this funny feeling after watching ANH, thinking there's another movie after it. ANH is just nice little contained package. No cliff hangers. No set up for future installments. Not something you see in today's films.

 

[Psab keel]

No it certainly isn't common these days at all.

It would be nice to see some sort of fantasy movies that follow that trend of just being a stand alone movie. Totally self contained with no intention of making sequels.

 

[d_jedi1]

Does TLJ tell a cohesive story?

Yes, it does. TLJ's story focuses on three protagonists. Each with their wants and needs. On one side they have a character that enables their wants and on the other side a character that forces them to see what they need. it looks like this.......

Leia<----Poe---->Holdo
DJ<----Finn---->Rose
Ben<----Rey---->Luke

Does it largely work on its own?

As well as any Star Wars film does, with the exception of ANH, as that one was kinda designed to be standalone. I'd guess, considering the reaction TLJ got from some fans, someone who has never seen any of the other films would probably enjoy TLJ more.

Does it follow the same elemental formulas established by George in the OT?

Yes, in that it's the hero's journey(or specifically, in this case, the heroine's journey), which is the story of going from adolescence to adulthood.

And you've completely missed my points
The Last Jedi did not tell a cohesive story either on it's own NOR did it Gel with ANYTHING before it.
As such, this TRILOGY has NOT told a cohesive story. Even if TRS pulls a rabbit out of it's ass and does something truly magical, this trilogy will STILL be horribly disjointed BECAUSE of TLJ.
And WHAT Hero's Journey?
Rey goes straight from being OP to still being OP?
(Remember, Lucas didn't toy with the Hero's Journey stuff until Empire... you're playing with historical revisionism again)

 

[Halliwax]

Omg joker you and this TLJ stuff... your gonna give me a stroke

 

[Joek3rr]

And you've completely missed my points
The Last Jedi did not tell a cohesive story either on it's own NOR did it Gel with ANYTHING before it.
As such, this TRILOGY has NOT told a cohesive story. Even if TRS pulls a rabbit out of it's ass and does something truly magical, this trilogy will STILL be horribly disjointed BECAUSE of TLJ.
And WHAT Hero's Journey?
Rey goes straight from being OP to still being OP?
(Remember, Lucas didn't toy with the Hero's Journey stuff until Empire... you're playing with historical revisionism again)

Sure it told a cohesive story. Show me that it doesn't. Maybe I'm totally off here. But I see a very cohesive story.

Heroine's Journey in this case. Which is slightly different from the Hero's Journey.

She's OP?

Let's see what she's done..... Fly the Falcon. Well she's a pilot, so her skill plus the Force, nothing crazy going there. She mind tricks a weak minded Stormtrooper on her third attempt. Not that impressive. She defeats Ben. That's inaccurate statement. It's more accurate to say that the Force through her defeats Ben. Plus she has some crazy melee skills already, so those skills plus the Force equals a scar across Ben's face. And Ben is very emotionally unstable at the moment, and is physically wounded. So nothing to crazy happening there. She's lifts a couple tons of rocks. Well if she can lift a lightsaber, then she can lift a couple tons of rocks. There's no difference. But if you want to see OP. Look at that Rodian toddler from the episode 'Children of the Force'. Little thing can't talk or walk, but is already using telekinesis.

Uh yeah George used the Hero's Journey to write the first film. Heck Joseph Campbell said that ANH was the one of the best uses of the Hero's Journey.

 

[Joek3rr]

Omg joker you and this TLJ stuff... your gonna give me a stroke

What can I say? I like it!

 

[Halliwax]

What can I say? I like it!

Lol oh trust me buddy I know!! Lol

 

[d_jedi1]

Tell me who was REALLY on the Hero's journey in TFA... Rey, or Finn.
At every step, Finn had to earn everything that he gained in that film.
It was structured in such a way that I truly felt that he was being set up to train as a jedi... EVERYTHING in the advertising and media surrounding the film built it up that way.
Rey just basically hits a switch and goes from 0-100 almost instantly. Someone turned on God Mode.
It wasn't earned and yet, I was largely forgiving of the fact that she "used the force" at the end of TFA AND that she beat Kylo until they continued that nonsense in TLJ.
We saw a force user protecting someone that she CLEARLY cared about deeply.. glitches and lucky pulls can happen.
Kylo was weak from having his guts turned inside out.
BUT there is absolutely ZERO character development for either of them in TLJ and, in fact, everyone is out of sorts.
She's still in god mode. Finn's progression is lost and he's downgraded to a slapstick character with an anime waifu. The legacy characters are even LESS of themselves. And there were TONS of stupid and world-breaking decisions.
How ANYONE can see anything that isn't disjointed in that film is beyond me. Nothing in it makes sense and nobody but Kylo Ren behaves like themselves.
And, again, while the STRUCTURE of the Hero's journey may have been in ANH, the THOUGHT of it was ABSOLUTELY not. ANY other claim is revisionist.

 

[Psab keel]

The heroes journey was done far better in the OT than in any of the prequels/ sequels/ stand alones. But to each their own.

I know I'm guilt of delving too much into the controversy of 8 but let's move on shall we? It's clear some of us love this turd of a movie and others, like me, loathe it. The twain shall never meet.

Besides in a few months we will have a whole new episode to debate. Oh happy times!

 

[Joek3rr]

Tell me who was REALLY on the Hero's journey in TFA... Rey, or Finn.
At every step, Finn had to earn everything that he gained in that film.
It was structured in such a way that I truly felt that he was being set up to train as a jedi... EVERYTHING in the advertising and media surrounding the film built it up that way.
Rey just basically hits a switch and goes from 0-100 almost instantly. Someone turned on God Mode.
It wasn't earned and yet, I was largely forgiving of the fact that she "used the force" at the end of TFA AND that she beat Kylo until they continued that nonsense in TLJ.
We saw a force user protecting someone that she CLEARLY cared about deeply.. glitches and lucky pulls can happen.
Kylo was weak from having his guts turned inside out.
BUT there is absolutely ZERO character development for either of them in TLJ and, in fact, everyone is out of sorts.
She's still in god mode. Finn's progression is lost and he's downgraded to a slapstick character with an anime waifu. The legacy characters are even LESS of themselves. And there were TONS of stupid and world-breaking decisions.
How ANYONE can see anything that isn't disjointed in that film is beyond me. Nothing in it makes sense and nobody but Kylo Ren behaves like themselves.
And, again, while the STRUCTURE of the Hero's journey may have been in ANH, the THOUGHT of it was ABSOLUTELY not. ANY other claim is revisionist.

Here the thing. Rey is a woman. And the woman's role in the mythic story is different from that of the man's. Joseph Campbell said “Women don’t need to make the journey. In the whole mythological journey, the woman is there. All she has to do is realize that she’s the place that people are trying to get to.” Obviously that doesn't make for a good story if you are wanting to make a woman your protagonist. So Maureen Murdock, a student of Campbell's created the Heroine's Journey. Basically, as I understand it, the Heroine's Journey is the story about the woman realizing that she's at where everyone else is trying to get. "The feminine journey is about going down deep into soul, healing and reclaiming, while the masculine journey is up and out, to spirit.” - Maureen Murdock Heroine's journey - Wikipedia
Does this not sound a little like Rey? She searching searching searching, and what does the Force cave show her? It's shows her. Rey's already there. What does Yoda say about her? "Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess." Or has Joseph said "the woman(Rey) is there."

So I got to go work. So I don't have time to address your other points, sorry, in the meantime, have watch through these two videos, they're pretty short. And tell me what you think.

 

[Joek3rr]

Any AFOLs out there?

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I don't care about any of that. They ruined Luke Skywalker. THAT's the problem IMO.


I recently read the Zahn Trilogy again and I was looking up something on Google and finally found a source for the "Lucas hates Mara Jade" thing. It turned out to be JW Rinzler (author of a bunch of the "Making of...." SW books). I started wondering why Lucas didn't like the character, whether it was because she was another Force user close to the Emperor or if it's because they married her to Luke. The former can't be it because any Sith, and this is in the movies (well Prequels anyway), can't fully trust their apprentice because that apprentice is going to take them out someday. So it makes sense to have others to do things you don't necessarily want your apprentice to have to deal with or don't want your apprentice knowing about. Not to mention it was Lucas' idea to give Vader an apprentice in The Force Unleashed. Then you have Inquisitors running around everywhere in Rebels. So that must not be it. So is it that they married her to Luke? I really think they could reboot (sort of) the Mara Jade character and just ignore anything from the Zahn Trilogy on. Just following her as the Emperor's Hand would be cool and it did work with the books Allegiance and Choices of One. There's a rumor, and I'm sure it's just that because it would make sense for Disney, that they were working on a Mara Jade tv show or something. If you want to give women and girls a character to like, that's a shoe in! Not to mention it would be cool to have a show from the Imperial POV.

 

[Joek3rr]

I don't care about any of that. They ruined Luke Skywalker. THAT's the problem IMO.


I recently read the Zahn Trilogy again and I was looking up something on Google and finally found a source for the "Lucas hates Mara Jade" thing. It turned out to be JW Rinzler (author of a bunch of the "Making of...." SW books). I started wondering why Lucas didn't like the character, whether it was because she was another Force user close to the Emperor or if it's because they married her to Luke. The former can't be it because any Sith, and this is in the movies (well Prequels anyway), can't fully trust their apprentice because that apprentice is going to take them out someday. So it makes sense to have others to do things you don't necessarily want your apprentice to have to deal with or don't want your apprentice knowing about. Not to mention it was Lucas' idea to give Vader an apprentice in The Force Unleashed. Then you have Inquisitors running around everywhere in Rebels. So that must not be it. So is it that they married her to Luke? I really think they could reboot (sort of) the Mara Jade character and just ignore anything from the Zahn Trilogy on. Just following her as the Emperor's Hand would be cool and it did work with the books Allegiance and Choices of One. There's a rumor, and I'm sure it's just that because it would make sense for Disney, that they were working on a Mara Jade tv show or something. If you want to give women and girls a character to like, that's a shoe in! Not to mention it would be cool to have a show from the Imperial POV.

Ruined Luke?

To be honest. I'd be happy with her staying in Legends. As cool as she is, and well-loved as she is by many fans. They'd just end up making more people mad than happy because she wouldn't be the exact same character as Legends. It's like Kyle Katarn. Love that character. But I'd rather enjoy him in Legends then get a version of him that just doesn't have the time to be the Chuck Norris Jedi I love him for. But I don't know, I feel it's a Kobayashi Maru for Lucasfilm, someone is going to get upset with them.

 

[Psab keel]

I've been meaning to reread the Thrawn trilogy since it's been about 20 years since I read them last. I hope they hold up well. Even if they don't I still have some fond memories of reading them back in the day and enjoy them more than the ST.

Either way Star Wars is just the OT to me. A beginning, a middle and an end and I am happy with that.

 

[Joek3rr]

I've been meaning to reread the Thrawn trilogy since it's been about 20 years since I read them last. I hope they hold up well. Even if they don't I still have some fond memories of reading them back in the day and enjoy them more than the ST.

Either way Star Wars is just the OT to me. A beginning, a middle and an end and I am happy with that.

You remind a little of a friend of mine's dad. Whenever Star Wars is brought up, he's quick to say that the originals are the best. And I agree with him. Then he'll say something like, 'I mean the originals, when it was just Star Wars, and not A New Hope.' I just have to roll my eyes What was really funny was he went and saw Rogue One when it came out. I asked him how he liked it. He leans over to me, and almost in a whisper he says "I actually liked it." It was like he was afraid someone would hear him say that

 

[Halliwax]

You remind a little of a friend of mine's dad. Whenever Star Wars is brought up, he's quick to say that the originals are the best. And I agree with him. Then he'll say something like, 'I mean the originals, when it was just Star Wars, and not A New Hope.' I just have to roll my eyes What was really funny was he went and saw Rogue One when it came out. I asked him how he liked it. He leans over to me, and almost in a whisper he says "I actually liked it." It was like he was afraid someone would hear him say that

Lol he sounds cool

 

[Psab keel]

There may be some fans that feel that way as far as being the original generation that grew up on the films and kind of wear that as a badge of honor. Perhaps they feel like they would lose their street cred if they ever admitted to liking the new material or anything that came out after 1983. I don't care about that kind of thing. I just like what I like and I could care less about people's opinions of me when it comes to my tastes. lol

As for your friend's dad's reaction, I'm just a grumpy old man by comparison because I didn't really care for Rogue One. Not bad but not as great as people make it out to be. Cool space battles and scenes with Vader but that was all I cared about, though it was utterly unnecessary and didn't add to the story I already knew. It was just bonus material. Cut scenes featuring some of the imagery that I loved from the OT. Nothing more.

Growing up I thought of the Expanded Universe as the continuing adventures of Luke and the gang, even if George didn't consider them canon (even back then) but they weren't the same thing because Lucas hadn't come up with the stories for those. They were fan fiction. Fun, but not "real."

I probably have always compartmentalized the novels as being a "what if" kind of continuation and given that George never considered them the official canon I always had them separate in my mind, even if I'd read 30 plus books by the time I stopped in 2000. I think I may have read maybe five of the novels around 2005, but I haven't read any since then and I was never big on the comics at all. I never got into the video games (of any kind actually) though I can appreciate the artistry that goes into them.

To me Star Wars was never this one cohesive universe. It was a multifaceted world built in different mediums and the only thing that ever really mattered the most was the movies. Naturally when the prequels were announced I felt like the saga was continuing "for real" because they were live action films and not novels, video games, cartoons or comics, but films like the originals and made by the creator George Lucas himself. It was going to be the glorious return of my favorite films and headed by the genius of Lucas. Or at least that's how I felt at the time.

As much as I love books, movies are my favorite form of entertainment and Star Wars has been and always will be best as a cinematic experience. Everything else, no matter how good, will always pale in comparison.

As for the content of the films that came out after ROTJ, it took me almost a decade to finally admit to myself that the prequels were just bad movies. Partly because I'd read all of the spoilers so I wasn't totally surprised by the content but also because I wanted to love them so much that I simply lived in denial for all that time. When I finally came to my senses I was frustrated.

When Disney bought Lucasfilm and the ST was announced I was cautiously optimistic that with the sale, the return of the original cast, John Williams, and many involved from OT era that we might just see the redemption of the series. I liked TFA when I saw it. I didn't love it, but given that it was essentially a soft reboot of A New Hope, I could understand Disney's attempt to tread lightly to get the fanbase back on board with what promised to be exciting times of new stories. I was willing to overlook it's flaws but it all hinged on what the next episode was going to deliver.

Well I don't need to go into what happened next because there are multiple threads with it all coming crashing down around me and my love of the series turning to hatred. Though with enough time passed and enough perspective I came to truly appreciate those original three films and their place in my childhood and my adult life. Along with the realization that those three were all that ever mattered and I could move on with the rest of my life.

So the in the end Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are three of my favorite movies of all time and nothing else in the extended content, whether movies, books, comics, video games, cartoons, theme parks, toys, or collectibles matter. None of that matter to me at all. Just those three adventures in space with those characters I love. I'm happy with that.

Sorry for the long winded post.

 

[Ron]

So in the end Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are three of my favorite movies of all time and nothing else in the extended content, whether movies, books, comics, video games, cartoons, theme parks, toys, or collectibles matter. None of that matter to me at all. Just those three adventures in space with those characters I love. I'm happy with that.

Amen

Also I like that you call it Star Wars and not A New Hope or Ep4. Your credentials pass

 

[Psab keel]

I've called it A New Hope over the years here and there but as a kid I just called it Star Wars. I realize that it's really the main title and each episode's subtitle falls under it, but it just feels right to call it Star Wars.

I prefer the simplicity of it. But I got rid of all of my Star Wars t-shirts because I hated having to clarify to people that asked about it. lol

 

[Ron]

Yeah me too. Kind of funny but when I was a very little kid, we had a VHS tape that we watched endlessly that one of my uncles recorded off the TV, or maybe it was a VCR to VCR copy I'm not sure. But the beginning got cutoff somehow and it didn't start until halfway through the crawl so I never knew about "A New Hope" in the title. He wrote "Star Wars" on the tape, my toys said Star Wars, everybody I knew called it Star Wars. The storybook I used to check out from my elementary school library said Star Wars. On TV it's called Star Wars. It's Star Wars.

Then my parents bought me that early 90's box set with the fold out sides that I'm sure all of us still have and "whoa what's this 'A NEW HOPE'?". I felt like I made a major discovery haha. But even after that I never called it ANH or heard anyone else call it that. I feel like ANH caught on in '97 with the SE.