Lets talk all things Star Wars

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NeoRutty said:
I'm angered that I have no idea what this is a callback too.

Is this one of those Tiktoks you kids are always doing?!
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And such a tragic day!
 
Psab keel said:
Agreed. That's not all he's lost. Lol. Freud would have a field day with this guy. In all seriousness though, this is the level to which discourse has devolved to when discussing fiction. Fiction of all things. This is why I'm so adamantly against politicizing Star Wars and most entertainment in general. I've only become cynical about much of popular fiction because not every story needs to reflect the snarky Gen X attitude of pretending to not care, but is then bereft of any hope. Society it seems, is so mired in being ironic and I have a vehement hatred for the cultural embrace of cynicism being celebrated as a virtue.

Some stories lend themselves to moral ambiguity, but there's just as much value in stories that celebrate true heroism (ie. selflessness) and we really need that now, more than ever. I don't care how "outdated" that premise might seem to studio executives or actors who make millions of dollars. They work for me. Not the other way around. Their job is to create entertainment. Not preach to me about morals. And a large portion of the fanbase is just as guilty. So I vote with my wallet.
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I also feel nuance has taken a strong backseat in media, much to its deteriment.

What I find common and really disturbing is how blatant and heavy-handed the message being sent is now. I dont feel like Im enjoying a story that is open to interpretation and allows me to connect the threads but rather being beaten over the head with an anvil on what I SHOULD like and feel and what is RIGHT and WRONG. Nevermind the fact that Hollywood is in its own ivory tower that does not actually reflect reality so the message comes off as hollow.

I dont watch new Star Wars content anymore so cant contribute to discussion on new things but one of the few shows I have been watching (the Boys) has honestly ruined one of my favorite characters with season 4. I do hate the message that "everyone is evil and has some darkness in their past, everyone thinks they are the hero and there is no good or evil."

Going into spoilers a little but one of the good supes is revealed to have been a bully and a b#$%$ due to her past as a pageant contestant, causing another bad guy supe to justifiably hate her after she spread a pretty terrible rumor that made her lose access to the paegent circuit. My big issue with this is that this character is supposed to be the quintissential "good person," that people who legitimately want to be super heroes and help exist and not just abuse their power for personal gain. That good people fundamentally exist and that they should be the ones we root for and put in power. The sudden twist in her backstory suddenly also makes her a "flawed person" and not "wholly good" and "admirable," a pretty big departure from her characterization in the first 3 seasons.

Stories need a "good guy" to root for. I also dont think genuinely good people only exist in fiction. I know there are tons of firefighters, police officers, volunteers, and other genuinely good people that are doing good things and dont have a backstory of abusing people or being genuinely evil in their past that they are making amends for. In fact, I do think most people are genuinely good and try to do good. Maybe its thanks to social media and the fact that alot of "famous" people tend to be dicks in real life but the vast majority of people arnt "social media" or "hollywood" famous and the vast majority of people arnt dicks. The quote is "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." To me, this always meant to me that there is always a majority of good people over evil people and evil only wins if good people choose to do nothing because if they actually took a stand, evil would easily be outnumbered. It is sad how media seems to push a "everyone is somewhat evil and evil is just a point of view" as opposed to actually celebrating heroes.
 
I am hearing that The Acolyte has wrapped-up and the end-product was just as bad as people feared.

At this point, here is my cynical take…

Those of you who are crushed by Disney Star Wars…but keep showing up expecting a different product or experience…it reminds me of an abusive relationship in which the abused party keeps showing up, thinking things are going to be “different”…
 
HeartBlade said:
I also feel nuance has taken a strong backseat in media, much to its deteriment.

I know art is "political", entertainment is "political" and reflects the beliefs of the creator. Thats fine and I can enjoy a work or try to understand a creator's message even if I dont agree with it. If its well done, at least it will make me think more from their point of view.

What I find common and really disturbing is how blatant and heavy-handed the message being sent is now. I dont feel like Im enjoying a story that is open to interpretation and allows me to connect the threads but rather being beaten over the head with an anvil on what I SHOULD like and feel and what is RIGHT and WRONG. Nevermind the fact that Hollywood is in its own ivory tower that does not actually reflect reality so the message comes off as hollow.

I dont watch new Star Wars content anymore so cant contribute to discussion on new things but one of the few shows I have been watching (the Boys) has honestly ruined one of my favorite characters with season 4. I do hate the message that "everyone is evil and has some darkness in their past, everyone thinks they are the hero and there is no good or evil."

Going into spoilers a little but one of the good supes is revealed to have been a bully and a b#$%$ due to her past as a pageant contestant, causing another bad guy supe to justifiably hate her after she spread a pretty terrible rumor that made her lose access to the paegent circuit. My big issue with this is that this character is supposed to be the quintissential "good person," that people who legitimately want to be super heroes and help exist and not just abuse their power for personal gain. That good people fundamentally exist and that they should be the ones we root for and put in power. The sudden twist in her backstory suddenly also makes her a "flawed person" and not "wholly good" and "admirable," a pretty big departure from her characterization in the first 3 seasons.

Stories need a "good guy" to root for. I also dont think genuinely good people only exist in fiction. I know there are tons of firefighters, police officers, volunteers, and other genuinely good people that are doing good things and dont have a backstory of abusing people or being genuinely evil in their past that they are making amends for. In fact, I do think most people are genuinely good and try to do good. Maybe its thanks to social media and the fact that alot of "famous" people tend to be dicks in real life but the vast majority of people arnt "social media" or "hollywood" famous and the vast majority of people arnt dicks. The quote is "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." To me, this always meant to me that there is always a majority of good people over evil people and evil only wins if good people choose to do nothing because if they actually took a stand, evil would easily be outnumbered. It is sad how media seems to push a "everyone is somewhat evil and evil is just a point of view" as opposed to actually celebrating heroes.
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As much as I enjoy movies and television, Hollywood is so out of touch with reality that I have no respect whatsoever for any of their moral posturing. It's obnoxious.

What it boils down to is that there are very few, if any, true aspirational heroes in much of popular television shows and film. While the literary term hero is thrown around a lot, obviously referring to the protagonist of the story, that doesn't automatically mean that this person is someone to be admired. Often they really shouldn't be admired at all.

True heroism is selfLESSness. Less me. More you. So much of what's being perpetuated is the magnification of self, at the expense of everything else. My identity. My happiness. My worldview. My experience. My wants and desires. Art naturally reflects the attitudes and beliefs of those who create it, so when your directors, writers, and actors are self absorbed, the work reflects that because the public is obsessed with themselves. Social media plays a huge role in this issue.

The problem then becomes a matter of mistaking character flaws as being virtuous, instead of challenges that the protagonist must overcome. They'll assume that because we can all relate to a character flaw, that this is what we ought to celebrate, when we should be celebrating that character being victorious over it. Relating to common problems creates empathy with an audience, but unless a protagonist can see the error of their ways, or muster the strength to work through those things, your fictional hero really isn't much of a hero.

This is why so much of the material out there feels empty and the journeys these fictional people go on end up hollow because there was no struggle at all. They just embraced those flawed aspects of their personality, never learn any lessons, never change as a result and instead of recognizing they can grow if they set aside their own needs for the sake of others, they remain exactly the same as how they started off at the beginning of the journey. Without a catharsis for the audience, you've left them feeling like they wasted their time.

Too many writers are ignoring universalism which finds commonality in the basic human experience, regardless of identity. They put the focus on self (whether it's the protagonist of a story, or the author writing it) when real heroes are willing to self sacrifice for a righteous cause, or to save someone's life/ ideals. The disconnect is astounding. Entertainment by its very definition is about other people. You can make a point about a political subject or cause you feel passionate about, but unless you have the skills to do it in a way that will allow an audience to be pulled into the fiction you've created, and trusting them to understand it without having to explain it to them outright, then you really ought to consider trying a different medium.

Persuasive thesis papers are really great for spelling out your ideas clearly without having to couch them in flowery language or fiction. A lot of these writers need to stick to theses, editorial journalism, or political commentary. They're not talented enough to skillfully make their point known through fiction. Recognizing your strengths is really difficult when you've got several generations now of people who were raised to think that everything they do is exceptional and that they're entitled to say or do whatever they want without consequence.
 
NeoRutty said:
I do recall now! I too am 47 and sometimes need the pump primed on digging up old memories.
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guabe said:
im 47 too. I forgot what i was going to write.
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jts1031 said:
Too funny. I'm 47 as well, for a few more months. I think. I'm at the age I have to do math to make sure.
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Maybe you guys can help me then? So WTF happened? I was 20 yesterday. :lol: I was over at my mom's the other day and went to the basement to tell her something, one room away, and forgot why I went down there. I thought that happened way later! :lol:



(forgot to add the quote, sorry).
I don't think putting politics in SW is the problem. The problem is putting modern day Earth politics in it. George has said that the OT was a warning about fascism (real fascism, not "I don't like your opinion, so you're a fascist" fascism) so it was there to start with. I think that's why a lot of fans are put off like we're being talked down to or lectured. It takes you out of the story. I think if they were smart they would have gotten some of the old EU writers to write stories and have them turned into scripts. The majority of them (minus that Crystal Star author) at least got what made SW SW.
 
Psab keel said:
As much as I enjoy movies and television, Hollywood is so out of touch with reality that I have no respect whatsoever for any of their moral posturing. It's obnoxious.

What it boils down to is that there are very few, if any, true aspirational heroes in much of popular television shows and film. While the literary term hero is thrown around a lot, obviously referring to the protagonist of the story, that doesn't automatically mean that this person is someone to be admired. Often they really shouldn't be admired at all.

True heroism is selfLESSness. Less me. More you. So much of what's being perpetuated is the magnification of self, at the expense of everything else. My identity. My happiness. My worldview. My experience. My wants and desires. Art naturally reflects the attitudes and beliefs of those who create it, so when your directors, writers, and actors are self absorbed, the work reflects that because the public is obsessed with themselves. Social media plays a huge role in this issue.

The problem then becomes a matter of mistaking character flaws as being virtuous, instead of challenges that the protagonist must overcome. They'll assume that because we can all relate to a character flaw, that this is what we ought to celebrate, when we should be celebrating that character being victorious over it. Relating to common problems creates empathy with an audience, but unless a protagonist can see the error of their ways, or muster the strength to work through those things, your fictional hero really isn't much of a hero.

This is why so much of the material out there feels empty and the journeys these fictional people go on end up hollow because there was no struggle at all. They just embraced those flawed aspects of their personality, never learn any lessons, never change as a result and instead of recognizing they can grow if they set aside their own needs for the sake of others, they remain exactly the same as how they started off at the beginning of the journey. Without a catharsis for the audience, you've left them feeling like they wasted their time.

Too many writers are ignoring universalism which finds commonality in the basic human experience, regardless of identity. They put the focus on self (whether it's the protagonist of a story, or the author writing it) when real heroes are willing to self sacrifice for a righteous cause, or to save someone's life/ ideals. The disconnect is astounding. Entertainment by its very definition is about other people. You can make a point about a political subject or cause you feel passionate about, but unless you have the skills to do it in a way that will allow an audience to be pulled into the fiction you've created, and trusting them to understand it without having to explain it to them outright, then you really ought to consider trying a different medium.

Persuasive thesis papers are really great for spelling out your ideas clearly without having to couch them in flowery language or fiction. A lot of these writers need to stick to theses, editorial journalism, or political commentary. They're not talented enough to skillfully make their point known through fiction. Recognizing your strengths is really difficult when you've got several generations now of people who were raised to think that everything they do is exceptional and that they're entitled to say or do whatever they want without consequence.
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Amazing retrospective! I could not have said it 1/4 as well as that, and I get paid to write.
 
HeartBlade said:
I also feel nuance has taken a strong backseat in media, much to its deteriment.

What I find common and really disturbing is how blatant and heavy-handed the message being sent is now. I dont feel like Im enjoying a story that is open to interpretation and allows me to connect the threads but rather being beaten over the head with an anvil on what I SHOULD like and feel and what is RIGHT and WRONG. Nevermind the fact that Hollywood is in its own ivory tower that does not actually reflect reality so the message comes off as hollow.

I dont watch new Star Wars content anymore so cant contribute to discussion on new things but one of the few shows I have been watching (the Boys) has honestly ruined one of my favorite characters with season 4. I do hate the message that "everyone is evil and has some darkness in their past, everyone thinks they are the hero and there is no good or evil."
Click to expand...

It is no longer about presenting drawing attention to something social, but solely about staging oneself and defaming anyone who has a different opinion.

Star Wars used to be for everyone. Now it's being made clear to me that I'm no longer wanted as part of the audience. If the series fails with the audience, it's no longer the fault of bad writers, bad directors, bad actors, but solely the fault of the audience.

It's okay to take a once popular franchise, rip apart everything that made it special and fill it with infinitely stupid crap. But if you don't like it, then you're just a misogynistic, fascist Nazi.

But I don't care anymore if some snowflakes who think their feelings are facts want to discredit and lecture me as a viewer. You guys are doing a ****** job. And anyone who has seen your nonsense can judge that too.
 
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