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Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
What makes it so [egregious] is the fact that they brag about having an overarching canon where every film, tv show, comic, etc is now under one cohesive canon. Yet they constantly contradict their own stories with impunity. So it's laughable to take that idea seriously.
That, too. I was excited about the "one canon" thing, until it started to erode. When we got Cobb Vanth in The Mandalorian and his story didn't quiiiiiiite match what was in Aftermath, and no good reason for the change (I really don't understand the criticism of the trilogy -- yeah, Chuck's abrasive and the tense threw me, but they were good stories with solid characters... they just contradicted the post-ROTJ EU we knew). Cobb's history and how he got the armor work just fine. The alterations for the show are minor, but they clash and they didn't need to. Especially not if it's "all one canon now". And so on like that.

It would be another thing altogether if they compartmentalized each division within the franchise the way Lucas did. At least that was a more honest approach. Lucas himself understood this. His films were the core of the story and the shows he produced or had a hand in, like Clone Wars, were official. The novels, the comics, the video games, all were like bonus material. They existed in their own bubble and he left them each compartmentalized to not have to deal with ideas conflicting with one another, and in this way he wouldn't have to veto a good idea if it didn't mesh.

Now everything has to mesh, and yet ironically a lot of it simply DOESN'T. Even the new films directly contradict one another. It's crazy.
Well, that's the thing. I noticed the things that started clashing post-Disney pretty much as they happened, because I could absorb the new content as it was coming out. Even now, the number of new-canon novels is not huge. There have only been a couple video games since 2014 (which is a whole other issue). The comics got problematic, though. One new ongoing "Star Wars" title? Like in the '70s and '80s? Excellent. Loved Dark Horse, but there were a lot of series going on simultaneously at the peak. Oh, and an ongoing Darth Vader series? Okay... And an ongoing Poe Dameron series? Um, okay. Wait, and a Darth Vader miniseries? Wait, a second one? Id there anything on the cover or in the title to indicate which "Darth Vader #1" is which? No? Um...

I like the idea of one cohesive canon. The tiers existed under Lucas because he didn't want to have to keep up with everything that was coming out, and I don't blame him at all. I liked when a book release was an event, when a new comic miniseries was an event. Almost like a new film being released. But when there were two novels and six issues of separate ongoing and miniseries coming out a month, that's just silly. New-canon at the beginning was good. One comic series. A few four-issue miniseries (Han Solo, Princess Leia, Lando, Shattered Empire, etc.). Two or three novels a year, and they tied in with what was going on in the films at the time, roughly. But it's spiraled, like the films themselves. I can still keep track of it, but I don't want to, because they aren't.

Maybe things will change.
Maybe they'll course-correct, eventually.
And maybe that'll be your moment to connect with them and contribute your expertise.
You never know!
I hope so. Various presently and past at or associated with Lucasfilm know of me, back to the mid-aughts. We've talked, among other things, about continuity and tone. Still no phone call. *lol*

When the old EU was wiped out, I was at peace with it (since there was plenty about it I didn't like) as long as the material going forward under Disney ownership was quality, not to mention cohesive. They have not succeeded in that endeavor as far as I'm concerned.

Knowing SW trivia is one thing but to understand what works and what doesn't is something else entirely.
Exactly. The trivia was, forgive me, trivial. It was a side-effect of universe-building, both good and bad. The data points in isolation are useful, but meaningless without the scaffold of setting and story to hang them on. But all the data points in the universe can't hide a flawed underlying structure -- or lack of.

I absorbed everything Star Wars as a teenager. For a lot of kids after the 1980's ended Star Wars faded out of their interests but it never left me and when the EU came about I read all the novels. I wasn't so much into the games and I had a few of the comics but the novels scratched that itch for me. Eventually those lost their luster and the wealth of content became too much to absorb so I stopped.
Ironically, I felt at the time about the Heir to the Empire trilogy as I do now about the Sequel Trilogy (ironic, as that's what a lot of people, from fans to George, hailed it as) -- a lot of potential, some good characters and beats, but ultimately missing the mark. But yes, when they reached peak saturation during the Prequels, it was nuts trying to make sense of everything that was coming out. Any given month had something Old Republic, Prequel Era, OT Era, and post-ROTJ Era. It was the whipsaw effect of the post-2005 filmic content, but constant.

I wished they had let content build up and rotated years, around then. A year of Prequel Era stuff, to tie into the movie coming out that year. Then a year of OT stuff. Then a year of post-OT stuff. Then a year of Old Republic stuff. Then the next Prequel movie and year. Since not every fan was invested in every era, they'd know they could relax and ignore a year two, rather than having to keep their radar on all th etime so they didn't miss something they wanted amongst all the stuff they didn't.

I revisited a few of them in adulthood and they were definitely a mixed bag. Some were great, others were downright awful. Some were a mix of both all within the same novel. I agree with you whole heartedly though that trivia is one thing. It's a parlor trick you use to impress your friends and it can be fun. But it's another thing entirely to understand the basic rules of fiction. Character, motivation, theme. Those things are crucial and if all you know is lore without an understanding of those basic rules, the lore is useless.
And that's why, out of everything pre-Disney, the ones that have stuck with me the most have been the ones where those are in full effect. Brian Daley's Han Solo books, Matt Stover's Shatterpoint and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, the Jedi Apprentice series, the X-Wing comics and novels, Aaron and Karen's two-thirds of the Legacy of the Force series, Tatooine Ghost, and Kenobi.

I love Batman (where is this going?!)

I certainly don't want to offend anybody here - this is just my opinion - but to me the sequels feel a little bit like Joel Schumacher's Batman movies. Entertaining, colorful, but not my cup of tea.

After Batman and Robin came out, I thought I was done with Batman. It felt like this is where things were going from now on, and I would move onto something else. I had my Beta copies of Burton's Batman movies and believed I'd be enjoying those for as long as I could.

Then Nolan came along, and I was back in a big way.
See... I felt the Batman films set a weird tone right from the get-go, even though I liked the first two. I don't know that Burton would've been my directorial go-to -- not without someone riding herd on him. Casting and characterization choices were my biggest gripe. Nicholson would probably have made a good Riddler, but Keaton should've been the Joker, and Alec Baldwin Batman (I still re-watch The Shadow as a Batman movie). Danny De Vito was good, but, as much as I adore Michelle Pfeiffer, they should've invented Harley Quinn for her in that film, rather than a couple years later. To this day, I'm mad they cast Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, because she'd make the best Catwoman we've ever had (go watch Red Notice on Netflix to see what I mean). She can pass for half-Cuban, easily.

And then from Batman Forever on, it felt like trying everything to see what would stick, and kept missing. Batman Begins was very good, got things closer to back on track, but I feel they dropped the ball on Ra's. Dark Knight was okay, but I was definitely missing Katie. The third one was almost as much of a farce as Batman Forever and Batman & Robin, though. I liked Affleck in his films, but DC keeps screwing up their cinematic universe, so we probably won't get any more of him. The Batman looks promising, at least.

IMO most people don't understand their own motives half as well as they think they do. Fans point to this problem or that one to explain what was wrong with a movie. But the overall tone and storytelling quality is usually the deciding factor.

TLJ has some logic problems and SW fans constantly complain about them. Really? ESB has glaring logic problems. The difference is that people like ESB enough to overlook the flaws. They don't like TLJ enough to overlook anything.
And that's the thing. I don't see any logic problems in TLJ. It's all tone and character for me. The chase is poorly conveyed. Leia's Force ability is poorly conveyed. Holdo is poorly conveyed. Luke's emotional state is poorly conveyed for the first third of the movie. The Canto Bight story would be good in another setting, rather than shoehorned into this one. Broom Boy doesn't work for me. And, of course, there's the whole thing about Rian ignoring what had been plotted out for the macro-story and taking some things in a very different direction than what Kennedy and Abrams had bullet-pointed.

Meanwhile, ESB is dripping with tone and characterization. The biggest logic problems are ones that the casual viewer never notices: How does the Falcon cross interstellar distances with no hyperdrive? And how long passes between the asteroid chase/Luke landing on Dagobah... and the showdown at Cloud City? But those can be handwaved because they're not important to the story.
 

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Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
It was much more than the movie itself that had the impact. It's arrival was at the dawn of the home video era and it's contemporaries in the theaters were dismal in tone by comparison. I know it's been referenced but in Empire of Dreams when Bill Moyers says, "Timing is everything in art," he couldn't have been more accurate. I think it wasn't just the movie itself but it was the era in which it was released that had just as important an impact as the movie.

Plus the only way to experience Star Wars was at the theater. Like you said blewis17 there was no internet, or cell phones, or social media. That simplicity and the rarity of the experience is what saw people lining up around the block to see it over and over again. It was like a rollercoaster. You can't take that experience home with you the same way you could when you were there at the amusement park. Back then Star Wars was the exception. Now it's the rule.
 

Wolfsburg

Sr Member
That, too. I was excited about the "one canon" thing, until it started to erode. When we got Cobb Vanth in The Mandalorian and his story didn't quiiiiiiite match what was in Aftermath, and no good reason for the change (I really don't understand the criticism of the trilogy -- yeah, Chuck's abrasive and the tense threw me, but they were good stories with solid characters... they just contradicted the post-ROTJ EU we knew). Cobb's history and how he got the armor work just fine. The alterations for the show are minor, but they clash and they didn't need to. Especially not if it's "all one canon now". And so on like that.


Well, that's the thing. I noticed the things that started clashing post-Disney pretty much as they happened, because I could absorb the new content as it was coming out. Even now, the number of new-canon novels is not huge. There have only been a couple video games since 2014 (which is a whole other issue). The comics got problematic, though. One new ongoing "Star Wars" title? Like in the '70s and '80s? Excellent. Loved Dark Horse, but there were a lot of series going on simultaneously at the peak. Oh, and an ongoing Darth Vader series? Okay... And an ongoing Poe Dameron series? Um, okay. Wait, and a Darth Vader miniseries? Wait, a second one? Id there anything on the cover or in the title to indicate which "Darth Vader #1" is which? No? Um...

I like the idea of one cohesive canon. The tiers existed under Lucas because he didn't want to have to keep up with everything that was coming out, and I don't blame him at all. I liked when a book release was an event, when a new comic miniseries was an event. Almost like a new film being released. But when there were two novels and six issues of separate ongoing and miniseries coming out a month, that's just silly. New-canon at the beginning was good. One comic series. A few four-issue miniseries (Han Solo, Princess Leia, Lando, Shattered Empire, etc.). Two or three novels a year, and they tied in with what was going on in the films at the time, roughly. But it's spiraled, like the films themselves. I can still keep track of it, but I don't want to, because they aren't.


I hope so. Various presently and past at or associated with Lucasfilm know of me, back to the mid-aughts. We've talked, among other things, about continuity and tone. Still no phone call. *lol*


Exactly. The trivia was, forgive me, trivial. It was a side-effect of universe-building, both good and bad. The data points in isolation are useful, but meaningless without the scaffold of setting and story to hang them on. But all the data points in the universe can't hide a flawed underlying structure -- or lack of.


Ironically, I felt at the time about the Heir to the Empire trilogy as I do now about the Sequel Trilogy (ironic, as that's what a lot of people, from fans to George, hailed it as) -- a lot of potential, some good characters and beats, but ultimately missing the mark. But yes, when they reached peak saturation during the Prequels, it was nuts trying to make sense of everything that was coming out. Any given month had something Old Republic, Prequel Era, OT Era, and post-ROTJ Era. It was the whipsaw effect of the post-2005 filmic content, but constant.

I wished they had let content build up and rotated years, around then. A year of Prequel Era stuff, to tie into the movie coming out that year. Then a year of OT stuff. Then a year of post-OT stuff. Then a year of Old Republic stuff. Then the next Prequel movie and year. Since not every fan was invested in every era, they'd know they could relax and ignore a year two, rather than having to keep their radar on all th etime so they didn't miss something they wanted amongst all the stuff they didn't.


And that's why, out of everything pre-Disney, the ones that have stuck with me the most have been the ones where those are in full effect. Brian Daley's Han Solo books, Matt Stover's Shatterpoint and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, the Jedi Apprentice series, the X-Wing comics and novels, Aaron and Karen's two-thirds of the Legacy of the Force series, Tatooine Ghost, and Kenobi.


See... I felt the Batman films set a weird tone right from the get-go, even though I liked the first two. I don't know that Burton would've been my directorial go-to -- not without someone riding herd on him. Casting and characterization choices were my biggest gripe. Nicholson would probably have made a good Riddler, but Keaton should've been the Joker, and Alec Baldwin Batman (I still re-watch The Shadow as a Batman movie). Danny De Vito was good, but, as much as I adore Michelle Pfeiffer, they should've invented Harley Quinn for her in that film, rather than a couple years later. To this day, I'm mad they cast Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, because she'd make the best Catwoman we've ever had (go watch Red Notice on Netflix to see what I mean). She can pass for half-Cuban, easily.

And then from Batman Forever on, it felt like trying everything to see what would stick, and kept missing. Batman Begins was very good, got things closer to back on track, but I feel they dropped the ball on Ra's. Dark Knight was okay, but I was definitely missing Katie. The third one was almost as much of a farce as Batman Forever and Batman & Robin, though. I liked Affleck in his films, but DC keeps screwing up their cinematic universe, so we probably won't get any more of him. The Batman looks promising, at least.


And that's the thing. I don't see any logic problems in TLJ. It's all tone and character for me. The chase is poorly conveyed. Leia's Force ability is poorly conveyed. Holdo is poorly conveyed. Luke's emotional state is poorly conveyed for the first third of the movie. The Canto Bight story would be good in another setting, rather than shoehorned into this one. Broom Boy doesn't work for me. And, of course, there's the whole thing about Rian ignoring what had been plotted out for the macro-story and taking some things in a very different direction than what Kennedy and Abrams had bullet-pointed.

Meanwhile, ESB is dripping with tone and characterization. The biggest logic problems are ones that the casual viewer never notices: How does the Falcon cross interstellar distances with no hyperdrive? And how long passes between the asteroid chase/Luke landing on Dagobah... and the showdown at Cloud City? But those can be handwaved because they're not important to the story.

Totally agreed. It honestly felt like Rian Johnson forgot his movie was just a part of a bigger whole… or maybe he has some beef with JJ Abrams since he chose to circumvent or just ignore a lot of plot threads that TFA laid out. With the corner that he had written the ST trilogy into by the end of TLJ, it was a tall order to try to pick up the pieces and try to springboard a third movie from that. I think TROS was always destined to be a mess at that point. It was just a question of how messy it would be. In my mind, he was a huge factor in the failure of the ST (in my mind) but his keepers (KK, the “story group”, etc) are just as much to blame, not to mention their failure to at least roughly map out that trilogy from the start.

It’s funny you mentioned ESB and the journey to Bespin as I was just ruminating over that this morning. In my mind, there simply must be a time jump of at least weeks/months that is not made obvious although there still would be the nebulous question of just how “pretty far” away was Bespin and how fast can the Falcon really go at sublight. It would make it seem that Luke’s training with Yoda was more substantial than just the “few days” it always kinda felt like it was in the movie.

As an aside, I always did think it was odd that Leia didn’t know where they were (Anoat system) since she is among the Rebel leadership and surely understood where Hoth was.
 

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Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Totally agreed. It honestly felt like Rian Johnson forgot his movie was just a part of a bigger whole… or maybe he has some beef with JJ Abrams since he chose to circumvent or just ignore a lot of plot threads that TFA laid out. With the corner that he had written the ST trilogy into by the end of TLJ, it was a tall order to try to pick up the pieces and try to springboard a third movie from that. I think TROS was always destined to be a mess at that point. It was just a question of how messy it would be. In my mind, he was a huge factor in the failure of the ST (in my mind) but his keepers (KK, the “story group”, etc) are just as much to blame, not to mention their failure to at least roughly map out that trilogy from the start.
Exactly that. The biggest failure is that, after the sale to Disney, Kathleen didn't stand up to Bob and say, "I know you want stuff out ASAP, but give us a minute to figure out where we're going, the way you have Kevin doing over at Marvel Studios". Nope, rushed straight into production on TFA before they had more than some bullet points. I'm even still honked off it was released when it was, rather than getting pushed back even six months for a traditional Star Wars Memorial Day weekend (ish) release.

It’s funny you mentioned ESB and the journey to Bespin as I was just ruminating over that this morning. In my mind, there simply must be a time jump of at least weeks/months that is not made obvious although there still would be the nebulous question of just how “pretty far” away was Bespin and how fast can the Falcon really go at sublight. It would make it seem that Luke’s training with Yoda was more substantial than just the “few days” it always kinda felt like it was in the movie.

As an aside, I always did think it was odd that Leia didn’t know where they were (Anoat system) since she is among the Rebel leadership and surely understood where Hoth was.
To be fair to Leia, they'd been evading Imperial pursuit for a bit. She apparently caught that they'd left the Hoth system, but hadn't known Han's vector. There's a whole lot that a good novelization or comic adaptation could fill in. Maybe Vader had Interdictors stationed in neighboring systems. Maybe the hyperdrive worked well enough to get them out of the system, and then died when they were still in range of perimeter ships' sensors.

The best explanation I've seen is that the whole Hoth/Anoat/Bespin thing is a loose star cluster. If Han stuck his foot in it, they could push the Falcon up to probably at least 60% to 70% of c just on her raw power. But then time dilation. The trip felt like a few days to them, but Luke had been training on Dagobah for a year. That sort of thing.
 

batguy

Sr Member
IMO somebody's head should have rolled at Disney for not completely plotting out the ST from the start.

Pouring concrete foundations & nailing walls together without a blueprint = incompetence. You don't need to be an architect or carpenter to understand that.


I don't think the TFA time crunch covers it either. Just because you start too fast doesn't mean you should never attempt to get caught up. The ST's plot deficiencies were fixable until cameras were rolling on the second movie. That was years after the trilogy was put in gear. They had time but they didn't make the effort.

The OT is a case of moving forward with an incomplete plan. The ST is a case of never having any plan whatsoever. The worst problems of the ST could have been avoided by giving Rian Johnson a few bullet points on an index card.
 

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ScourgiousJinx

Sr Member
Well said!

I fondly remember saving my allowance, hoping for a trip to Penny's, Sears, Zayre, or Lionel Playworld to pick up carded SW figures for $1.99 each. I remember seeing the Death Sar Droid for sale at a strip mall tourist shop in Fort Lauderdale for $4.99 and thought "What a rip-off!!"

Got the pair of C3P0 and R2-D2 first, then Vader from Penny's and Obi-Wan from Sears (had to have a duel!)

For those here not in their 5th decade, you youngins have to know there was NO internet, NO Amazon, NO cable TV, NO social media. NO hyper analysis video of movies/comics/toys available 24/7 on YouTube. And really, there was NO critical analysis of toys at the time. You only saw TV advertisements, work-in SW posters and glasses at Burger King and Burger Chef, MAYBE some magazines (comics), and whatever you happened to glimpse in the Toy Aisle when your mom had to stop by K-Mart for a new mop.

You were ALWAYS anticipating the next reveal, it was never spoiled.

This video will give you a little insight into what the times were like back then...

I love this video, I'm so glad things like this still exist because they speak volumes. I'm too young to remember the opening of ESB but I remember the joys of ROTJ toy shopping. What a difference walking down toy aisles then vs. now (also the current lack of toy stores).
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
Well said!

I fondly remember saving my allowance, hoping for a trip to Penny's, Sears, Zayre, or Lionel Playworld to pick up carded SW figures for $1.99 each. I remember seeing the Death Sar Droid for sale at a strip mall tourist shop in Fort Lauderdale for $4.99 and thought "What a rip-off!!"

Got the pair of C3P0 and R2-D2 first, then Vader from Penny's and Obi-Wan from Sears (had to have a duel!)

For those here not in their 5th decade, you youngins have to know there was NO internet, NO Amazon, NO cable TV, NO social media. NO hyper analysis video of movies/comics/toys available 24/7 on YouTube. And really, there was NO critical analysis of toys at the time. You only saw TV advertisements, work-in SW posters and glasses at Burger King and Burger Chef, MAYBE some magazines (comics), and whatever you happened to glimpse in the Toy Aisle when your mom had to stop by K-Mart for a new mop.

You were ALWAYS anticipating the next reveal, it was never spoiled.

This video will give you a little insight into what the times were like back then...


I'm 44, but I was explaining this exact thing to my 18yo nephew the other day. I've looked at some of the 70s/80s toys Facebook pages and I've seen toys, in lines I had toys from, that I didn't even know about. I was telling him how you were only aware of a toy if you saw it in the store, on a commercial, in a catalog, a pack in catalog, or if a friend had it. That's it. Now companies like Hasbro show them the toy from concept until it's on store shelves.
 

blewis17

Sr Member
It was much more than the movie itself that had the impact. It's arrival was at the dawn of the home video era and it's contemporaries in the theaters were dismal in tone by comparison. I know it's been referenced but in Empire of Dreams when Bill Moyers says, "Timing is everything in art," he couldn't have been more accurate. I think it wasn't just the movie itself but it was the era in which it was released that had just as important an impact as the movie.

Plus the only way to experience Star Wars was at the theater. Like you said blewis17 there was no internet, or cell phones, or social media. That simplicity and the rarity of the experience is what saw people lining up around the block to see it over and over again. It was like a rollercoaster. You can't take that experience home with you the same way you could when you were there at the amusement park. Back then Star Wars was the exception. Now it's the rule.

Yes, it was a perfect storm. In the late 1970s, home computers were JUST STARTING to be a thing, and video game consoles were all the rage. Technology... futuristic technology... was available (for a price) in your home. And even though Star Wars was set "a long time ago..." there was still the feeling that SW was possible, tangible, obtainable.

(plus Dave Prowse and James Earl jones made Darth Vader one of the best characters ever put to screen)
 

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Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I don't think the TFA time crunch covers it either. Just because you start too fast doesn't mean you should never attempt to get caught up. The ST's plot deficiencies were fixable until cameras were rolling on the second movie. That was years after the trilogy was put in gear. They had time but they didn't make the effort.
Disagree. One of the biggest problems with TFA, as people like Dan and I have soapboxed about extensively, is that we come in in media res, just like Star Wars, to evoke that same feeling of coming into the middle of a serial. Except we saw the previous episode. We're not resolving the cliffhanger from the last installment -- we're skipping over an entire generation's worth of galactic politics and Our Heroes' character arcs. It feels like there's an episode missing. If they hadn't rushed, if they hadn't felt fanatically obligated to parrot George's utterly accidental "trilogy model", maybe they would've realized the story needs to transition from the ending of ROTJ before dumping us into a new crisis. We, the audience, have zero idea who the big players are, even though we've been watching the entire story up to this point. We can deduce that the "loathsome Republic" is the new government the Rebels formed after the Emperor's death, but what's this Resistance? Is the First Order the Empire? If not, then who are they? There's an entire important chapter missing.

If the actors' ages was a consideration, start filming a bunch of scenes and vignettes and moments, individually and together, to have some raw material to work with. Simultaneously, launch a "Shattered Empire" animated series that carries Our Heroes forward from the Ewok party into the aftermath of the Battle of Endor and creation of the New Republic. After a season or two, give us the movie where everything falls apart, Luke Skywalker disappears, Leia forms her Resistance, and the First Order goes public. TFA should, in basic for-dummies levels of storytelling, follow on from that.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Sr Member
I sometimes wonder how SW would be if Lucas made the ST instead of the PT in the late 90's and then followed with the PT 10 years later. Would've likely fixed a number of current ST issues but many of the same PT faults would've probably still remained in the ST.

*edited as parts were missing, not that it makes a big difference
 
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sztriki

Sr Member
I so respect Zemeckis and Gale for finishing BTTF as a trilogy in 1991 and not letting franchising take over. Sure, there was an animated series, video games, comic books, but the three original movies are complete, untouched, unmolested and closed.
I often wonder how much better it would have been if SW had been left at 3 movies as well, have your cartoons, comics and whatever, but the three staples are still the staples.
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Perhaps... I would still like to have seen the twelve episodes George actually originally had roughly plotted, before he started curtailing himself -- the six Obi-Wan episodes and the six Luke episodes. The saga would still have ended with a party in the trees as the Death Star died overhead. The route to get there would have been a bit less... rushed.
 

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