Just because you didn't enjoy the films doesn't mean they should erase them from canon. No offense, but chillax.
Lets talk all things Star Wars
Axlotl
Master Member
Oops, I struck a nerve. Lol
Don't let me interfere with your love of Doritos...
While I personally don't agree (not a fan of the sequel trilogy), an interesting read:
harrisonp
Sr Member
I think in hindsight with Carrie’s passing it’s obviously unfortunate that Luke exits in TLJ, but the warts of that movie aside (though I have come to like it) I think he has a great arc in it.
I think the ST has more large scale problems than hermit Luke, but it’s an easy thing for us to latch onto because most of us had years and years of preconceptions for the character. I still personally think a slightly toned down version of the Vong era would have been a better place to go. Adapt it the way you would a comic property, broad strokes and smoothing some of the iffy details.
I think the ST has more large scale problems than hermit Luke, but it’s an easy thing for us to latch onto because most of us had years and years of preconceptions for the character. I still personally think a slightly toned down version of the Vong era would have been a better place to go. Adapt it the way you would a comic property, broad strokes and smoothing some of the iffy details.
The only SW movies that nobody wants to change are the original three.
IMO the prequels are actually better-suited to be remade than the sequels. The prequels have a lot of strong plotting & elements that everyone agrees on. Their drawbacks are mostly frustrating issues that could be easily fixed in a full remake. Better/less CGI. Redone dialogue. Cut the midichlorians bit. Cut JarJar, or at least change him heavily. Etc. In the right hands the results could be remarkable.
It's not gonna happen while George is around to comment about it. But I could see it happening eventually after he's gone and the prequels are 30+ years old.
Trying to rework the sequels into a Lucas-worthy condition would be a much harder task. They didn't plot those movies adequately and that's a fatal problem IMO.
IMO the prequels are actually better-suited to be remade than the sequels. The prequels have a lot of strong plotting & elements that everyone agrees on. Their drawbacks are mostly frustrating issues that could be easily fixed in a full remake. Better/less CGI. Redone dialogue. Cut the midichlorians bit. Cut JarJar, or at least change him heavily. Etc. In the right hands the results could be remarkable.
It's not gonna happen while George is around to comment about it. But I could see it happening eventually after he's gone and the prequels are 30+ years old.
Trying to rework the sequels into a Lucas-worthy condition would be a much harder task. They didn't plot those movies adequately and that's a fatal problem IMO.
Solo4114
Master Member
I think this nails the analysis as to why folks were disappointed by TLJ vs. why some of us love it.
I love that Luke was complex, and had a different journey. I also love Rey's journey in that film. I love the character pieces, rather than the ass-kicking.
But I also totally get why the Mando sequence is one of people's faves, and I get why folks like watching a competent hero (because I love those films, too).
I know there are other things that folks don't like about the sequel trilogy. I have plenty of criticisms, myself. But I think this at least sort of explains one of the biggest divides about TLJ.
Damn kids with their new lingo we don't understand! 
I think I could stomach the ST if they hadn't done what they did to Luke. They could have showed him doubting himself and a loss of confidence so much better without making him look like a massive a-hole. I could have bought that. He would never stop being a hero even if he doubted himself. His completely different behavior (hey let's immediately kill my innocent nephew, but save my mass murderer father!) in the ST is what ruined the whole thing for me.
As for the Prequels, I get the flaws, but I'd watch them any time. I will never watch the first two Sequels a second time and never watch the third period.
I think I could stomach the ST if they hadn't done what they did to Luke. They could have showed him doubting himself and a loss of confidence so much better without making him look like a massive a-hole. I could have bought that. He would never stop being a hero even if he doubted himself. His completely different behavior (hey let's immediately kill my innocent nephew, but save my mass murderer father!) in the ST is what ruined the whole thing for me.
As for the Prequels, I get the flaws, but I'd watch them any time. I will never watch the first two Sequels a second time and never watch the third period.
He didn't say they should. He said they hoped they would. Everyone's entitled to their own hopes.
Solo4114
Master Member
I'd argue that TLJ introduces some potentially really interesting ideas, but JJ was never interested in them. As has been said ad nauseum, the ST's problem is that it is internally inconsistent in how it's designed. JJ's film doesn't really "flow" into Rian's, which doesn't really "flow" into the last one (which itself is kinda jumbled anyway). As a trilogy, it doesn't really hold together. Great cast, great f/x, great production design, no real thru-line to the story.
BUT, TLJ set things up to basically break the trilogy format and open Star Wars up to a bunch of other concepts. It's just that...nobody was interested in that except some of us who dig the film. They could've done another 4 films just off of where TLJ leaves us, including an actual redemption arc for Ben that gives him some time being an antihero for a bit instead of just a 180 face-turn because he hugged his ghost-dad. As emotional turns go, that's up there with Anakin slaughtering younglings because he's worried about Padme.
harrisonp
Sr Member
Yeah I think I shortchanged TLJ in that quoted post. I loved the idea of the gatekeeping around the Force being broken open, a literal awakening across the galaxy. Except then it goes nowhere in TROS and Rey is still Rey Special
in Abrams’ hands.
I compare the sequel trilogy to Legend of Korra a lot because I think ATLA/LoK are good examples of an original and follow-up property, and in LoK there’s an event that basically goes where I expecting things to be post TLJ and I really like it.
in Abrams’ hands. I compare the sequel trilogy to Legend of Korra a lot because I think ATLA/LoK are good examples of an original and follow-up property, and in LoK there’s an event that basically goes where I expecting things to be post TLJ and I really like it.
I've harped on it enough over the years that I won't go into the whole rundown again, but even if George had actually started at the beginning, it was never supposed to be trilogies -- just an ongoing episodic adventure serial. By locking themselves into the "trilogy model that George established", without understanding the why of it or why it didn't work as executed, they didn't just put the cart before the horse -- that's a whole damn convoy and the horse can't go anywhere.
My biggest frustration, as a Star Wars fan from just about day one, has been all the threads and ideas and possibilities set up in Star Wars and Empire... that then either never went anywhere, didn't get anywhere near enough screen time for what they ended up being, got contradicted or retconned out of existence, or just left hanging totally ignored in favor of new ideas that had only vague associations with the story around them.
The Force being strong in the Skywalker family is let down hard when we find out it's been that way... since Luke's dad because magic. Shmi doesn't seem particularly strong with the Force, and we heard not one iota about her antecedents. There are ways to handle that. Luke's conversation with Leia on Endor chould have gone, "The Force has been strong in my family only recently, but unusually strong." Or else make the Skywalker family a thing going back to the Old Republic. There's stuff about these noble houses and high families in the ancillary material that never gets touched on in the films that is fertile ground for delving into the GFFA's haves and have-nots and how some used their position wisely and well while others did not, the rise and fall of great dynasties. The later Arthur legend is exactly what Luke's story was -- the humble farmboy who turns out to be a long-lost prince. I would have been much more interested in how this once-great family fell from grace, and Luke's struggle to make things right again.
Rian's take that the Force can be in anyone is right out of the original material around the time of the first film. Anyone could become a Jedi, if they had the patience, the self-awareness, and were able to stick with it. Some were just better/more natural talents at it than others. I wish it had stayed that way. Sure, we can still have midi-chlorians and whills, but let that be peripheral. It still takes training, though. I have never been okay with Broom Boy at the end of TLJ. My preferred take on that would've been, after the story group breaks up, he looks at his broom, reaches out his hand toward it and concentrates and... nothing happens. A sound from one of the other kids outside distracts him, he turns his head, the broom handle tilts toward him about an inch... and he drops his hand and just walks over and picks it up without noticing.
Kylo needed time to discover what writers confronted about Vader back in the '90s. There's no way to atone enough for what he's done. Two ways to go with that. One, he becomes about the most Jedi Jedi who ever Jedi'ed -- dedicates the whole rest of his life to serving those he harmed... Or else state publicly to the mob screaming for his head on a pike that his death won't make them whole, but if that's what they demand then so be it, and then after he's been executed, everyone walks away realizing he was right and they still hurt and now also feel guilty.
The stuff between Obi-Wan and Yoda on Dagobah. About Obi-Wan also being full of anger and recklessness when he was younger. We didn't really get to see any of him coming into his own as a Jedi. TPM tried... but didn't have enough screen-time to cover years -- and itself clashed with the OT with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan going to their sabers before any attempt to de-escalate. Which isn't so much Obi-Wan being angry and reckless as it is him following his mentor's example.
Never mind Luke's sister getting dropped and mashed up with Leia and the thirty frikkin' years between episodes VI and VII with no help to the audience as to what has happened in there, beyond Luke having disappeared at some point prior to the film and Han and Leia breaking up. Because of the internalized structure of storytelling, what we are presented with in the beginning is the "old normal" -- a quo that has been status for some time. The writers even fell victim to this thinking. Like when Poe tells Lor, regarding the map fragment, that "this will begin to put things right". Implying they have been not right for some time. One has to delve into ancillary material to discover that everything was fine for a quarter-century and only went to **** within the last five years. Luke Skywalker disappearing is a thing that happened six months to a couple years prior, around the same time that Han and Leia had a hard time being around each other. Like that's the cliffhanger where the last episode left us, except it didn't.
So yeah. A lot of good ideas and threads that didn't get treated right because Trilogies™. Ugh.
My biggest frustration, as a Star Wars fan from just about day one, has been all the threads and ideas and possibilities set up in Star Wars and Empire... that then either never went anywhere, didn't get anywhere near enough screen time for what they ended up being, got contradicted or retconned out of existence, or just left hanging totally ignored in favor of new ideas that had only vague associations with the story around them.
The Force being strong in the Skywalker family is let down hard when we find out it's been that way... since Luke's dad because magic. Shmi doesn't seem particularly strong with the Force, and we heard not one iota about her antecedents. There are ways to handle that. Luke's conversation with Leia on Endor chould have gone, "The Force has been strong in my family only recently, but unusually strong." Or else make the Skywalker family a thing going back to the Old Republic. There's stuff about these noble houses and high families in the ancillary material that never gets touched on in the films that is fertile ground for delving into the GFFA's haves and have-nots and how some used their position wisely and well while others did not, the rise and fall of great dynasties. The later Arthur legend is exactly what Luke's story was -- the humble farmboy who turns out to be a long-lost prince. I would have been much more interested in how this once-great family fell from grace, and Luke's struggle to make things right again.
Rian's take that the Force can be in anyone is right out of the original material around the time of the first film. Anyone could become a Jedi, if they had the patience, the self-awareness, and were able to stick with it. Some were just better/more natural talents at it than others. I wish it had stayed that way. Sure, we can still have midi-chlorians and whills, but let that be peripheral. It still takes training, though. I have never been okay with Broom Boy at the end of TLJ. My preferred take on that would've been, after the story group breaks up, he looks at his broom, reaches out his hand toward it and concentrates and... nothing happens. A sound from one of the other kids outside distracts him, he turns his head, the broom handle tilts toward him about an inch... and he drops his hand and just walks over and picks it up without noticing.
Kylo needed time to discover what writers confronted about Vader back in the '90s. There's no way to atone enough for what he's done. Two ways to go with that. One, he becomes about the most Jedi Jedi who ever Jedi'ed -- dedicates the whole rest of his life to serving those he harmed... Or else state publicly to the mob screaming for his head on a pike that his death won't make them whole, but if that's what they demand then so be it, and then after he's been executed, everyone walks away realizing he was right and they still hurt and now also feel guilty.
The stuff between Obi-Wan and Yoda on Dagobah. About Obi-Wan also being full of anger and recklessness when he was younger. We didn't really get to see any of him coming into his own as a Jedi. TPM tried... but didn't have enough screen-time to cover years -- and itself clashed with the OT with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan going to their sabers before any attempt to de-escalate. Which isn't so much Obi-Wan being angry and reckless as it is him following his mentor's example.
Never mind Luke's sister getting dropped and mashed up with Leia and the thirty frikkin' years between episodes VI and VII with no help to the audience as to what has happened in there, beyond Luke having disappeared at some point prior to the film and Han and Leia breaking up. Because of the internalized structure of storytelling, what we are presented with in the beginning is the "old normal" -- a quo that has been status for some time. The writers even fell victim to this thinking. Like when Poe tells Lor, regarding the map fragment, that "this will begin to put things right". Implying they have been not right for some time. One has to delve into ancillary material to discover that everything was fine for a quarter-century and only went to **** within the last five years. Luke Skywalker disappearing is a thing that happened six months to a couple years prior, around the same time that Han and Leia had a hard time being around each other. Like that's the cliffhanger where the last episode left us, except it didn't.
So yeah. A lot of good ideas and threads that didn't get treated right because Trilogies™. Ugh.
I don't think run time or the trilogy format was the culprit in a lot of lost potential. Where Star Wars faltered was under the direction of inept writers or directors who chose to emphasize their focus on side plots which robbed screen time from characters or elements that would have better served the story. Couple those factors with other writers and directors who have no respect or knowledge of the lore of this franchise, or those whose view of the series is so miopic that all they cared about were lightsabers and going to Tatooinne any chance they got. Seriously how many stories have to take place there? For a backwater planet it sure seems to be the center of the universe according to far too many of these types.
So it all comes down to the writing. That's all it's ever been about. That's all the criticisms have ever been about. Whether good or bad, or mediocre, if the writing sucks nothing else matters. No writer's credentials. Not even the intention of the writer matters. No director. No actor. No production team. No budget. No box office numbers. No critical reviews. No social messaging. No aggregate scores on film rating sites. None of that stuff matters. Either a story is good or it's bad based on how well the ideas in that story are presented because no matter what happened to get it to the screen, ALL that matters is the finished product.
If that script or idea is dumb or in diametric opposition to everything that came before when you're telling a story within a series, then you better be damn sure that you fix it before you commit it to film.
So it all comes down to the writing. That's all it's ever been about. That's all the criticisms have ever been about. Whether good or bad, or mediocre, if the writing sucks nothing else matters. No writer's credentials. Not even the intention of the writer matters. No director. No actor. No production team. No budget. No box office numbers. No critical reviews. No social messaging. No aggregate scores on film rating sites. None of that stuff matters. Either a story is good or it's bad based on how well the ideas in that story are presented because no matter what happened to get it to the screen, ALL that matters is the finished product.
If that script or idea is dumb or in diametric opposition to everything that came before when you're telling a story within a series, then you better be damn sure that you fix it before you commit it to film.
George spent a year dedicated to writing and rewriting the first Star Wars script. He had multiple drafts which proves he was committed to making it the best he could. Even then he constantly relied on the feedback and edits of his peers. The strength of other writers who had more experience and talent than him, along with Marcia's input and those of the cast and crew who then helped hone his vision into what we came to know and love was what made Star Wars a hit. Compare that to his nearly untouched first draft of The Phantom Menace. It was unfiltered and consequently suffered as a result because people were too afraid to question the man who built an entire self contained industry to make his movies.
So if George Lucas himself needed the help of his peers, then why is is that the other writers and directors get a pass? Sure they may have been more collaborative than George was in his later career, but it still doesn't excuse poor creative decisions chosen at the blank page. Idk. It's just so evident to me that the writing alone is the culprit in all of this and some ideas are just stupid while others serve the story best.
So if George Lucas himself needed the help of his peers, then why is is that the other writers and directors get a pass? Sure they may have been more collaborative than George was in his later career, but it still doesn't excuse poor creative decisions chosen at the blank page. Idk. It's just so evident to me that the writing alone is the culprit in all of this and some ideas are just stupid while others serve the story best.
sztriki
Sr Member
So where do I sit who liked neither the Mando nor the TLJ Luke...? XD
sztriki
Sr Member
To be completely honest I think the TLJ concept of Luke is an interesting one. I do think however it was not written well and it was not pulled off successfully neither as an arc nor as a backstory.
The Mando one was very surface level and it irked me that S1 of the Mandalorian had these interesting characters without relying on nostalgia, then the climax of S2 is an ultimate fan service scene robbing them of their own agency.
Guess you can't win.
The Mando one was very surface level and it irked me that S1 of the Mandalorian had these interesting characters without relying on nostalgia, then the climax of S2 is an ultimate fan service scene robbing them of their own agency.
Guess you can't win.
TLJ lost the franchise fans in the first 10 minutes. By the time Luke tossed the lightsaber and then drank blue space-cow milk, the hard feelings were established. The fans were thinking "that's not my Luke Skywalker" and the glue started drying on their opinions.
I cannot think of a clearer example of a movie that needed test-screenings & tweaks. It wouldn't have turned the movie into a fan favorite but it would have reduced the antipathy.
I cannot think of a clearer example of a movie that needed test-screenings & tweaks. It wouldn't have turned the movie into a fan favorite but it would have reduced the antipathy.
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