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ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
I refuse to watch the last Sequel, so I don't know about that, but in the old EU there were several books where Sith cultists are mentioned. In the Darth Bane books they mention that the Sith have a large network of spies, legit businesses, shell companies, etc. to get them intel, technology (ships, vehicles, weapons, etc.), and keep a steady cash flow. Other Sith worshipers collect relics, texts, and even lightsabers that the Sith are happy to relieve them of.

Most of the my favorite SW novels, comics and video games are from the EU. It does have a large list of flaws though and can be hilariously bad. Dark side material, groups, concepts and especially the aspects you mentioned were often imaginative and well done in it. The Darth Bane trilogy was entertaining as was the Darth Plagueis novel, surprisingly.
 

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Iskelderon

Well-Known Member
I've never looked at is like this, but Grogu being such an insatiable eating machine, they do have a point!

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Jaitea

Master Member
I watched a video about 'The Missed Opportunity of Yesterday', talking about the musical comedy film Yesterday (the 2019 movie that explores a world were the Beatles didn't exist), & the differences between the original script "Cover Version" written by Jack Barth & the re-write by Richard Curis

The video says that Jack Barth had an original thought of 'What would the world had been like if Star Wars hadn't have been created?', all the movies, special effects, technology in film making that we all are used to today,....then he thought, hold on 'What would the world be like if there were no Beatles?'

J
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
That would have been interesting... But there's so much involved, it would've had to be a Netflix series or something. A bit like how, with the improvements in shipbuilding and breakthroughs in navigation and cartography, discovery of the Americas by Europeans circa 1500 was pretty much inevitable. George was part of a group who were sick of the Hollywood way of doing things. There were other maverick movie-makers around then and coming along every year. The specifics would have been different -- but in what way(s) and to what extent?

What if George had been able to get the rights to do a Flash Gordon movie, after all, and not write his own space fantasy? What if Alan Ladd, Jr., hadn't been able to convince the Fox board to roll the dice? What if he had just a few scraps more of self-awareness and rejected Coppola's advice to write and direct at least one film, to better understand what writers and directors need from their producer, or how to communicate your needs as an editor? What if he'd found a way to be a race car driver, after all? What if they'd gone with Colin Cantwell's designs more directly, kept the rear-projection screens because of time and budget concerns, and Marcia hadn't re-edited it at the last minute? Heck, what if he'd started at the beginning of his notes and gave us the Adventures of a young Obi-Wan Kenobi?
 

Usagi Pilgrim

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
That would have been interesting... But there's so much involved, it would've had to be a Netflix series or something. A bit like how, with the improvements in shipbuilding and breakthroughs in navigation and cartography, discovery of the Americas by Europeans circa 1500 was pretty much inevitable. George was part of a group who were sick of the Hollywood way of doing things. There were other maverick movie-makers around then and coming along every year. The specifics would have been different -- but in what way(s) and to what extent?

What if George had been able to get the rights to do a Flash Gordon movie, after all, and not write his own space fantasy? What if Alan Ladd, Jr., hadn't been able to convince the Fox board to roll the dice? What if he had just a few scraps more of self-awareness and rejected Coppola's advice to write and direct at least one film, to better understand what writers and directors need from their producer, or how to communicate your needs as an editor? What if he'd found a way to be a race car driver, after all? What if they'd gone with Colin Cantwell's designs more directly, kept the rear-projection screens because of time and budget concerns, and Marcia hadn't re-edited it at the last minute? Heck, what if he'd started at the beginning of his notes and gave us the Adventures of a young Obi-Wan Kenobi?
You just absolutely blew my mind.

As I was reading, & grinning, & nodding, it completely hit me as to why all of the discussions about what is & isn't SW are missing the point.

STAR WARS isn't completely just the characters, the story, the design, & all the other things we love about it... It's the fact that it was so completely different from what had come before, although the story was an unoriginal tale told in a new setting. I think what we all really want is more of the feeling that SW gave us, not necessarily more of that story.

I think the simplist way I can articulate what I'm thinking is this... The only way most will get what they truly want, is if someone wants to make a 'STAR WARS' film, but can't get on board with LucasFilm. They're sick of the corporate grinder that the film industry has become, so they take their idea & rework it into something more original & decide to just do it on their own. No way they could afford ILM or any other big effects houses, so they crank that stuff out of a garage & necessity.

Granted, it wouldn't be STAR WARS, but STAR WARS wasn't FLASH GORDON, & it could be new & interesting.

It's kinda like equating SW with say, The Ramones... There's only so many ways you can put those 3-4 chords together with that same attitude they began with, & no new album will give you what you got the first time you experienced them. So what we get today is if a company bought the Ramones as a property, then announced a new slate of music, written by a group of focus testers & produced by Justin Timberlake & Timbaland, because they both site The Ramones as HUGE influences in their careers. Then each album that came out had one original member replaced, until by the 4th one, it was an all new lineup making music that sounded like The Ramones.
 

harrisonp

Sr Member
I was just talking to my friend about properties like Star Wars and The Walking Dead, and how their influence and domination of a space stifles the creativity of people who they influence, largely because they are allowed to drag on forever. If Star Wars, or Star Trek, or TWD etc were allowed to reach their natural conclusion then there would be room for the influenced to go forward and make their own permutations.
 

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Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
These are the exact reasons why I've long held the belief that Star Wars ended in 1983. Everything else, regardless of how we feel about it, is just tacked on. It's bonus material, for good or ill. The longer they drag it on the less meaning it has and I'm tired of settling for scraps.

The irony is that while the imaginative spirit of the films on the surface feels rife with possibilities, it's actually very, very limited. In 1977 Star Wars was the exception. Now it's the rule. Today everything is trying to emulate it and build on that gargantuan structure of franchise which often sacrifices story for attempts at world building. Star Wars in its prime stood out because it was well made escapism that contrasted the gritty pessimism of the day. Now almost all we have is forgettable schlock that's rarely executed well enough to even be watched more than once and more often than not there's no sincerity behind any of it. The culture has become too cynical and it's crept it's way into entertainment to the point where everything has to be downbeat and angsty.

Instead of inspiring a generation of filmmakers to make their own original stories, they just keep playing in George's sandbox rather than do the hard work of creating their own world that has nothing to do with a galaxy far, far away. Couple that with the studio system that George inadvertently created and it's no wonder we're inundated with comic book films and blockbuster mania because no one is willing to take a risk on a new story.

For a generation of people who were influenced by this property there are so few who actually have the vision to use it as a vehicle to motivate their own creations and sadly they can't see the forest for the trees. Which is why rearranging the parts of Star Wars into different configurations never totally satisfies.

You know everyone thought the LOTR had too many endings. Star Wars has them beat. 1983, 2005, 2019, and countless books, video games, novels, TV shows, cartoons, and comics have over saturated the market. Sometimes less really is more. Sometimes these things can overstay their welcome.

Like you said Usagi Pilgrim we're not chasing after Star Wars, what we're really after is the feeling it gave us and endlessly rehashing the same thing is never going to get us anywhere. I think this applies to lots of properties too. Instead of reinventing them, why not create new ones? I don't want or need 5 versions of Masters of the Universe or Spiderman, or Batman. It's hard to get excited for more of the same when it would be far better to get enthusiastic over something truly fresh.

Give me more Stranger Things. Show like that were influenced by the things we love, but the Duffer brothers had the guts to make their own story. We need more content like that than we do another Skywalker saga.

We don't want more Star Wars. What we want is inspiration.
 
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ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
I enjoyed some of the EU but really in comparison to the OT nothing holds up at all. Original, innovative, great Star Wars films (and films in general) could still be created. Whether or not that’s likely in the current climate is another question. A long break from new SW films, 10 years or more is probably a really good idea for a slew of reasons.

The film industry needs to change. Hopefully it will when people tire of the rinse and repeat, often poor content, hubris, consumerism and complete insincerity. Cultural shifts are inevitable. Giving in to the current model entirely is settling but so is giving up hope for the future, even when it comes to Star Wars.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The thing is, returning to the same story again and again within 44 years, even after lengthy breaks between feels tired. It's not just the saga films that fit into this mode of thinking, but the property as a whole.

For me it feels like an obligation to keep giving new Star Wars stories a try, so I'm not sure if I'll bother anymore. I think it just needs to end for good. I know I'm in the minority on this and it's clear this property will go on regardless.

"As attractive as the Star wars world is, eventually you have to leave home."

- George Lucas

from Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga

Part of what makes life so precious is because we know it's finite. Movies are the same way.
 
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Joek3rr

Sr Member
These are the exact reasons why I've long held the belief that Star Wars ended in 1983. Everything else, regardless of how we feel about it, is just tacked on. It's bonus material, for good or ill. The longer they drag it on the less meaning it has and I'm tired of settling for scraps.
And I would argue that Star Wars ended in 1977. 'Star Wars' didn't need a sequel. I've always felt, even back when I was kid, that 'Empire' was tacked on as you say. 'Star Wars' was a perfect little remix of George's favorites. The "same" story told for that generation.

Star Wars as the property we know it, happened in 'Empire'. Everything changed. Star Wars is no longer a Saturday morning serial. It becomes an operatic tragedy. (Hence the operatic vocals in Prequel scores) And now everything got to be connected. Everyone is so and so's father, son, brother, sister, grandson, granddaughter, you name it. Part of me wishes George had stuck with idea of Saturday morning serial.
 

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ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
The thing is, returning to the same story again and again within 44 years, even after lengthy breaks between feels tired. It's not just the saga films that fit into this mode of thinking, but the property as a whole.

For me it feels like an obligation to keep giving new Star Wars stories a try, so I'm not sure if I'll bother anymore. I think it just needs to end for good. I know I'm in the minority on this and it's clear this property will go on regardless.

"As attractive as the Star wars world is, eventually you have to leave home."

- George Lucas

from Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga

Part of what makes life so precious is because we know it's finite. Movies are the same way.
Exactly the same story over and over doesn't work. As far as I'm concerned they haven't tried anything original since the OT. The potential is there but you're right, if it's never going to be realized, leaving it alone permanently is a much better idea than going down the current path. I just haven't entirely lost faith that they'll do something original eventually (probably after the film industry has evolved), but maybe I should lol. You make a great case for it.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Exactly the same story over and over doesn't work. As far as I'm concerned they haven't tried anything original since the OT. The potential is there but you're right, if it's never going to be realized, leaving it alone permanently is a much better idea than going down the current path. I just haven't entirely lost faith that they'll do something original eventually (probably after the film industry has evolved), but maybe I should lol. You make a great case for it.
The OT isn't exactly original. Its pretty much a story that's told a thousand times already. The visual world of Star Wars is very unique and is the most original.

But as a whole, Star Wars is very unoriginal. And this was very intentional. From the music to the story. Star Wars was meant to be a return to form. A return back to the golden age of Hollywood. A classic swashbuckling film. Only the setting was "new." A fantasy space opera. Star Wars wasn't about telling a new story. It was about telling an old story for a then new generation.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
The OT isn't exactly original. Its pretty much a story that's told a thousand times already. The visual world of Star Wars is very unique and is the most original.

But as a whole, Star Wars is very unoriginal. And this was very intentional. From the music to the story. Star Wars was meant to be a return to form. A return back to the golden age of Hollywood. A classic swashbuckling film. Only the setting was "new." A fantasy space opera. Star Wars wasn't about telling a new story. It was about telling an old story for a then new generation.
It's easy to list all of the OTs influences, as with a lot of art, music, film and entertainment, things build off of the past. They are are quite well known as Lucas has spoken frequently about them. But none of the influences were all grouped, packaged in the same way and presented at the same time. So it's originality came from putting together all of those separate influences into one space opera.

If you're suggesting that every artist, author, filmmaker who has imitated anyone else, combined multiple influences, twisted themes, stories, myths, ideas, settings, styles to make it their own and make something new is completely unoriginal, I'd have to politely disagree.
 
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Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
What would happen if SW wasn't around is interesting to filmmaking, but what about how it relates to us? I was born a week before SW came out so I never knew a time without SW. It was one of the first memories I have and some of the first toys I ever had. I wonder how different some of our childhoods would have been if we didn't have SW?
 

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