Lets talk all things Star Wars

[HeartBlade]

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean I hate it. This is the notion that doesn't go into the heads of these so called fans. I can criticize what I want if I have any arguments to back it up and still not hate it. It's just a really dimwitted approach to call someone hater who doesn't like what I do.
BTW what is OG? Genuinely asking, saw it so many times, I know OT is Original Trilogy, GOUT is George's Original Unaltered Trilogy but what is OG shorthand for?

Lol yeah I didn’t mean OG for original gangster but OG for original or the initial basis. I didn’t want to tie it just to Star Wars because I think it ties to any and all fandoms and all fandoms have that one outstanding movie/series/game/season/etc that defines it.

 

[robn1]

I've been taking OG to mean Original Generation.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Also can we please stop qualifying our posts by telling everyone how long we've been a fan? As if that somehow makes your opinion any more valid than anyone elses? Opinions are by definition biased, otherwise they'd be irrefutable facts. Announcing to the world that you saw the original film in theaters in 1977 has absolutely zero bearing on almost any point you make so why point it out? Either your opinion has merit by nature of how well you back it up, or you're hoping longevity is somehow going to make your point more credible.

I think some people started doing that around 2005 after the Prequels came out because other people assumed that if you liked them you weren't from the OT generation. So you'd see "I liked the Prequels and I saw the OT in the theater!" Now it's purely gatekeeping. If you watch that first video with Gina Carano in the Mandalorian thread, she and the host talk about those fans and how we need to get back to just being SW fans. Of course I think now a lot of western countries (I can only speak for the US) are polarized by political views and it's becoming that way with the stuff we enjoy to try to avoid politics!

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I usually see "OG" mean "old guard," but yeah -- any sort of "the first folks to do the thing before all you young whippersnappers came along and started snapping your whips and such".

I definitely have a strongly self-deprecating streak to my awareness of my tenure as a Star Wars fan. Yes, I know more lore than Leland (I wrote in to correct a couple things he got wrong in his column in the Insider, and one to answer a question he didn't know the answer to, back in the days of there being an EU). I am definitely a Star Wars fandom gatekeeper, but more in a sense of an old town crier, hollering to get everyone's attention so they'll come in through the gate and see what all is there that they hadn't known about before.

It's either that or look around at all I've experienced and done and collected and say to myself, "Son... You've got a condition."

 

[HeartBlade]

Lol. I do kinda of understand the desire to gatekeep since I’ve been on both sides of the gate and don’t think it’s all that bad.

whenever there is a new influx of fans, especially following a reboot or release of the content to a greater audience (game of thrones for ASOIAF, the lord of the rings trilogy for the namesake, etc) a lot of new fans come into the franchise not knowing the original rules that govern the world which result in some stupid opinions (I think Anakin in the clone wars can stay a good guy, Aragon is stronger than Sauron, etc).

Gatekeeping as in saying you should watch/know these basic rules before theorizing or analyzing makes sense since that’s true in any discipline. Gatekeeping becomes bad if it is used as a means to forbid new people from entering the fandom but if it is used as a minimum guidelines you should know before you can really begin to appreciate the art, I think it can be pretty insightful.

 

[Psab keel]

When the continuity is changed with every release of the films (thanks George Lucas for your needless tinkering) it renders basic knowledge of the rules almost meaningless. Thus it's a huge part of why lore has absolutely no impact on me personally. You can spout "facts" at me all day but unless it is intrinsically tied to what I'm watching on screen and established well in its script I couldn't care less. Often I'm aware of such details, even vaguely, only because of my long history with the series but not because they interest me much.

What interests me far more is dissecting why a story works or doesn't work using the basic rules of fiction writing as an objective standard by which to measure success or failure.

People will interpret the material however they interpret it regardless of any previous knowledge on the subject. It's just the nature of art. The only stipulation I would have if I were to introduce someone to Star Wars is to show them the best ones (4k77, 4k80, 4k83) and call it a day because that's as far as my interest goes. If they wanted to explore further they could do so on their own time.

 

[Riceball]

Gatekeeping as in saying you should watch/know these basic rules before theorizing or analyzing makes sense since that’s true in any discipline. Gatekeeping becomes bad if it is used as a means to forbid new people from entering the fandom but if it is used as a minimum guidelines you should know before you can really begin to appreciate the art, I think it can be pretty insightful.

I don't think that this is any better than the other form of gatekeeping you mention. A potential fan shouldn't have to have to have a minimum knowledge in order to be considered a fan. By saying that you have to have a minimum knowledge is the same as keeping new people from entering the fandom by setting a bar for people to enter the fandom. How do people enter the fandom and gain more knowledge of the fandom if they aren't allowed in because they don't know anything? It's like the old catch 22 of getting a job; you can't get a job because you have no experience but you can't get any experience because you can't get a job.

 

[JoeG]

This is just one example of why gatekeeping in any form is stupid. Just don't do it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1342214741620625408

 

[robn1]

No one has any power to keep anyone out of any fandom, you're either in or you're not.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I saw that she really made those people look stupid.


I get a certain level of gatekeeping, but I wouldn't necessarily use that term for essentially just knowing what you're talking about. One example is people who were never SW fans watching the Sequels and then telling everyone else that that portrayal of Luke was absolutely in character for him. It's obvious you're not familiar enough with the character to have a real opinion. Now if someone on here defended the Sequel Luke, I definitely won't agree, but I would listen to their opinion because it's an informed opinion. It's still wrong though.

 

[HeartBlade]

I don't think that this is any better than the other form of gatekeeping you mention. A potential fan shouldn't have to have to have a minimum knowledge in order to be considered a fan. By saying that you have to have a minimum knowledge is the same as keeping new people from entering the fandom by setting a bar for people to enter the fandom. How do people enter the fandom and gain more knowledge of the fandom if they aren't allowed in because they don't know anything? It's like the old catch 22 of getting a job; you can't get a job because you have no experience but you can't get any experience because you can't get a job.

that’s a good point. It is stupid to label someone as “not a true fan” or things of that nature just because they haven’t consumed as much which can be due to a variety of reasons (economic, time, just lack of access period).

Given the fact that some franchises are so huge that even getting started can be daunting (Marvel/DC, Dr Who), I found some people’s “gatekeeping standards” to be helpful to get an understanding of the franchise (for Star Wars you want to see the numbered movies to get the whole picture, for LotR just the 3 books, for Kingdom Hearts all the games). However, I do agree that using this as a means to bar people from entry or labeling people as not “true fans” because they don’t like the specific core things the general fans do like does make the fandom toxic and prevent it from growing which is bad in the long run.

 

[HeartBlade]

No one has any power to keep anyone out of any fandom, you're either in or you're not.

lol, on the contrary I would argue once you’re in, you’re in for life. After learning about the parts made into crafting Luke, Vader, and Obi Wan’s lightsabers or the movie history behind Han’s C96, I don’t think I can ever go back to being a non-fan of Star Wars props.

 

[HeartBlade]

Kind of dead here so was wondering if anyone here is watching Cobra Kai and want to discuss what it does right?

Cobra Kai is everything the ST wanted to be done right imo. If you look at the base issues, they tackle the same challenges:

- reviving interest in an old series that doesn’t necessarily warrant a sequel (harder for CK imo since Daniel is an old man now).
- introduce a new younger cast to take center stage.
- continue the series despite some more recent flops (KK3 wasn’t as good as the previous 2 and KK with Swank or Smith weren’t great either).

I think this is where CK differs and does right by the series compared to ST.

- legacy characters have their happy ending (Daniel is a successful car dealership owner and local celebrity).
- CK tells a story that is interesting to listen to/needs to be told (what happened to Johnny after his fall in 1 and how that affects Daniel).
- the new main character is likeable and relatable (Miguel starts out as a friendly loser, works hard and becomes the best).
- the new and legacy characters both experience reasonable and realistic hardships and arnt perfect (Johnny opens up CK to make a living and stop being a failure, Daniel is driven by his hate/trauma of CK and opens up Miyagi-Do in response, Johnny still sees Kreese as a farther figure and so gets tricked despite his better judgement, Miguel is still a teenager and gets mixed up in romance, CK students were previously bullied so enjoy their new status and become the bullies themselves).
- tons of fan service for the fans (return of crane kick, return of Chozen and Ali, return of Kreese).
- good expansion of the lore while staying true to the lore (Daniel learns more about Miyagi-Do from Chozen, the one who would know more about Miyagi-Do. Johnny’s first dojo is flawed and he tries to change CK beyond what Kreese made it).

Cobra Kai is so well done that even me, a guy who really only knows about KK through cultural osmosis, am a fan of the show and went to watch the KK movies retroactively to understand the references. There are some really silly things (like karate becoming this super deadly art and kids being able to fight wherever) but it’s a great ride.

I definitely don’t think it was easy to make this show and think the show runners are huge fans of KK and they really know their stuff about both the KK lore and the fandom (hell Johnny essentially references the Daniel was the bad guy theory video in season 1) but it’s clear they love the series and their love has payed off in one of the best sequels to a loved IP imo.

 

[Riceball]

Kind of dead here so was wondering if anyone here is watching Cobra Kai and want to discuss what it does right?

Cobra Kai is everything the ST wanted to be done right imo. If you look at the base issues, they tackle the same challenges:

- reviving interest in an old series that doesn’t necessarily warrant a sequel (harder for CK imo since Daniel is an old man now).
- introduce a new younger cast to take center stage.
- continue the series despite some more recent flops (KK3 wasn’t as good as the previous 2 and KK with Swank or Smith weren’t great either).

I think this is where CK differs and does right by the series compared to ST.

- legacy characters have their happy ending (Daniel is a successful car dealership owner and local celebrity).
- CK tells a story that is interesting to listen to/needs to be told (what happened to Johnny after his fall in 1 and how that affects Daniel).
- the new main character is likeable and relatable (Miguel starts out as a friendly loser, works hard and becomes the best).
- the new and legacy characters both experience reasonable and realistic hardships and arnt perfect (Johnny opens up CK to make a living and stop being a failure, Daniel is driven by his hate/trauma of CK and opens up Miyagi-Do in response, Johnny still sees Kreese as a farther figure and so gets tricked despite his better judgement, Miguel is still a teenager and gets mixed up in romance, CK students were previously bullied so enjoy their new status and become the bullies themselves).
- tons of fan service for the fans (return of crane kick, return of Chozen and Ali, return of Kreese).
- good expansion of the lore while staying true to the lore (Daniel learns more about Miyagi-Do from Chozen, the one who would know more about Miyagi-Do. Johnny’s first dojo is flawed and he tries to change CK beyond what Kreese made it).

Cobra Kai is so well done that even me, a guy who really only knows about KK through cultural osmosis, am a fan of the show and went to watch the KK movies retroactively to understand the references. There are some really silly things (like karate becoming this super deadly art and kids being able to fight wherever) but it’s a great ride.

I definitely don’t think it was easy to make this show and think the show runners are huge fans of KK and they really know their stuff about both the KK lore and the fandom (hell Johnny essentially references the Daniel was the bad guy theory video in season 1) but it’s clear they love the series and their love has payed off in one of the best sequels to a loved IP imo.

I think that if Disney had tried to pull a Cobra Kai on Star Wars the sequels would have been just as equally, if not more, hated than they are now. Cobra Kai works, in large part, because Karate Kid wasn't as huge a pop culture phenomena as Star Wars is, so making it more of a teen rom-com works. Could you imagine the uproar if they tried to make Star Wars anything but a serious sci-fi movie? People would have totally lost their minds if they (Disney) tried to make the sequels more light hearted and/or played up the romance. Lucas tried it in the prequels with JarJar for comedic relief and the whole Anakin/Padme romance and fans, by and large, rejected then for that.

I'm not saying that making things lighter toned is necessarily the only way of redoing an old franchise, just that Cobra Kai, in my opinion, largely works because they changed things around from the originals. They took the original movies, kind of flipped them on their heads and lightened the tone. I don't think that Cobra Kai would have been half as popular if they tried make the series the Karate Kid 40 years later with the same tone and same themes. But, as I said earlier, CK got away with it since it wasn't the pop culture juggernaut that Star Wars is, the bigger and more beloved the franchise is, the harder it is do anything new with it and still please the legions of fans it has.

 

[HeartBlade]

I think that if Disney had tried to pull a Cobra Kai on Star Wars the sequels would have been just as equally, if not more, hated than they are now. Cobra Kai works, in large part, because Karate Kid wasn't as huge a pop culture phenomena as Star Wars is, so making it more of a teen rom-com works. Could you imagine the uproar if they tried to make Star Wars anything but a serious sci-fi movie? People would have totally lost their minds if they (Disney) tried to make the sequels more light hearted and/or played up the romance. Lucas tried it in the prequels with JarJar for comedic relief and the whole Anakin/Padme romance and fans, by and large, rejected then for that.

I'm not saying that making things lighter toned is necessarily the only way of redoing an old franchise, just that Cobra Kai, in my opinion, largely works because they changed things around from the originals. They took the original movies, kind of flipped them on their heads and lightened the tone. I don't think that Cobra Kai would have been half as popular if they tried make the series the Karate Kid 40 years later with the same tone and same themes. But, as I said earlier, CK got away with it since it wasn't the pop culture juggernaut that Star Wars is, the bigger and more beloved the franchise is, the harder it is do anything new with it and still please the legions of fans it has.

I disagree with the analysis. Yes, a teen romcom storyline won’t work for Star Wars but that’s because it’s not a part of Star Wars while it is for KK. The first KK had a story structure of a teen romcom (new kid falls in love with girl, confronts former ex, trains and wins tournament, wins girl).

I think Cobra Kai’s tone does meet the previous movies as well. Yes, season 1 is lighter and more humorous with some small jabs at the lore (Daniel rubbing his hands before calling a medic) but CK still respects the core of KK. Karate is taken as serious business with the tournament seen as a big deal and fights between Daniel and Johnny are serious business with both seriously trying to hurt each other which shows their animosity that lingers from the first movie.

I think what makes CK great though is the clear respect it has for legacy. Mr Miyagi is held in high regard. Daniel has his happy ending. Kreese is crazy but a serious threat that neither Daniel nor Johnny take lightly. And the legacy characters have justified character development that feels natural to their characters (Chozen knows more about Miyagi-do’s more violent techniques but his experience from KK2 and his age have made him more welcoming/less anger driven).

In contrast, the ST’s tonality was far too light. The dialogue was very Marvel with Poe trying to be a quip machine. The first order were treated as jokes on occasion ranging from Kylo Ren’s tantrum in TFA to Hux being rag dolled in TLJ and Snoke bisected and left there in his bathrobe. Nevermind the lore being very unclear (Jedi can now travel in space unprotected with the force? Jedi can force project but it kills them? Force ghosts can interact with the real world?).

I do think sequels have a very difficult task in needing to juggle both creating a purposeful story and expanding while respecting the lore established in the original series. Cobra Kai does this really well while ST failed on both of these fronts.

 

[sztriki]

Lucas tried it in the prequels with JarJar for comedic relief and the whole Anakin/Padme romance and fans, by and large, rejected then for that.

I think it was rejected because it didn't work and was awfully written vomedy and romance, not because the concept was rejected.
I liked the humour in TFA even if it smelled like Marvel humour, Solo had decent tone too mostly.
TLJ on the other hand really missed the mark for me with the constant jokes and felt totally inappropriate for the movie it tried to be.
BTW I've never seen CK or KK, just reflecting on the above sentiment. Dunno how CK's approach would work for SW.

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

The over zealous attempts at comedy are part of the many reasons TLJ and the ST were what they were. Comedic writing really has to work with the actors playing the parts. Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill's banter in the OT works well. It's much different than Oscar Issac, Daisy Ridley & John Boyega's who have the chemistry, delivery, comedic sense and timing of door knobs (despite performing well separately in other films).

Cobra Kai romcoming the ST would've actually made it worse, if that's possible. Looking forward to season III of Cobra Kai and always hopeful that SW will breathe new life into itself.

 

[Psab keel]

Just like the PT there were elements within the ST that were genuinely interesting, but terribly executed. As for the friendships in the story, it also helps when the characters are actually written as friends. Han, Luke and Leia were believable friends because we watched them go through things together as a group on screen for the entire trilogy. Rey and Finn had a friendship, and Poe and Finn had one but Rey and Poe never meet until literally the final scene of TLJ. It's hard to buy into a trio friendship when two of the leads don't even know each other until the last movie and their bond is shoehorned in at the last minute.

And no, having characters bicker and talk over each other as a means of establishing familiarity with each other (JJ I'm looking at you) is not the same thing as characters going through an experience together or having a substantial scene where they compare and contrast ideas as a means to understand one another. The ST is just a total mess and this was just one of many reasons why.

I can understand the desire to perform an autopsy on the corpse as a means of closure, but at some point we have to acknowledge it's dead and move on with life and enjoy what remains with the living relatives. Time will be the ultimate judge of that trilogy.

 

[sztriki]

Just like the PT there were elements within the ST that were genuinely interesting, but terribly executed. As for the friendships in the story, it also helps when the characters are actually written as friends. Han, Luke and Leia were believable friends because we watched them go through things together as a group on screen for the entire trilogy. Rey and Finn had a friendship, and Poe and Finn had one but Rey and Poe never meet until literally the final scene of TLJ. It's hard to buy into a trio friendship when two of the leads don't even know each other until the last movie and their bond is shoehorned in at the last minute.

And no, having characters bicker and talk over each other as a means of establishing familiarity with each other (JJ I'm looking at you) is not the same thing as characters going through an experience together or having a substantial scene where they compare and contrast ideas as a means to understand one another. The ST is just a total mess and this was just one of many reasons why.

I can understand the desire to perform an autopsy on the corpse as a means of closure, but at some point we have to acknowledge it's dead and move on with life and enjoy what remains with the living relatives. Time will be the ultimate judge of that trilogy.

I think TFA worked well in those terms. Poe and Finn, then Finn and Rey had their own bonding scenes even if it was derivative. Like almost everyone I too did try to rewrite a treatment for the prequel trilogy and the way Finn and Rey meet and escape and Rey has her "Force awakening moment" is almost to the tee how I had Obi-wan and Anakin meet and bond in my fan version.

 

[Psab keel]

I did my own outlines as a way to reconcile the missteps of the prequels. It was a great writing exercise and helped me develop ideas for my own novel. So in that sense it was very helpful and I'm glad I did it.