sztriki
Sr Member
I tried so many times, that mask and voice and style is just ruins every sensible thought for me, I don't know why...anything specific you wanted to recommend?
Lets talk all things Star Wars
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Joek3rr
Master Member
Maybe it's just me. But why must the ST stand on its own? Is it not apart of a larger story?
cboath
Master Member
Well, everything in the OT can actually exist in universe. A base, built through the center of a moon, close enough to a sun to steal all it's power and destroy it - but there's snow on it's surface? It's NOT baked into oblivion? I'd wager no in-universe materials can pass that close to a sun for much more than a handful of minutes. Not live there. Watching the movie it doesn't bug me too much, but it's not plausible in the way it was done. It never occurred to me to be honest until i went looking for a ST thing to nitpick. It only took 15-30 seconds to come up with that though.
And that's nit picking. I'm sure you can find story problems in the OT. Thing is - they aren't glaring. There story problems with the ST that are glaring. Doesn't make the OT innocent, but you're talking jaywalking vs grand theft auto.
And i'm sorry, but while the OT had a good share of figure it out flick by flick - you can't say the ST was 'similar' in that regard. You had a director who dumped a lot of the OT for the new starting point, a second director who threw out most of the last flick, and the final director who tossed most of the second part.
GL and company at least shot for a cohesive story. They tripped over their own feet hear and there. But they weren't retconning themselves in every flick. Seems like one crew was new to filmmaking but had a good story in mind and the other was good at filmmaking but didn't have a story - at least one they stuck to.
Again, E4 vs E7. You can find implausible things in 7. I don't see too many in 4. If the most implausible thing that comes to mind in the OT is resucuing han seems too easy, i'll rest my case.
cboath
Master Member
NO.
7 and 8 had nothing whatsoever to do with anything that came before. I've said before and so have others. Change the OT cast to new characters and nothing changes at all. The only real connection to anything prior is the emperor who was shoehorned in to try and get fans back on their side after TLJ.
If you never saw 1-6, you don't miss anything just watching 7-9.
For the very same reason any film should stand on its own regardless of whether it's part of a series or not. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to defend or criticize any individual installment.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
I don't follow him but saw his most recent video, seemed like he's trying to keep DSW hate alive so he can keep making money. I mean at some point you have to realize it's not worth being mad about for years. He strikes me as a person that needs something important in his life. Maybe it's just an act to make a living, if so then more power to him.
Joek3rr
Master Member
That factually incorrect. The new characters literally live in the shadow of what came before.
The First Order is a Neo-Galactic Empire faction trying to restore the glory of the Empire. Without first 6 films you have no context for what the Empire is. We have no context when Kylo says that he will finish what his grandfather, being Darth Vader, started. So even if you removed all the old characters. The idea that there is no connection to the previous films is a lie.
Joek3rr
Master Member
But ESB and ROTJ do not stand on their own.
ESB opens with the knowledge that you've seen the previous film. So they don't introduce the characters like we've just met them. It assumes you know about Obi-Wan death and him vanishing. And that you know about Vader, the Force, and the Jedi. And then it ends on cliff hanger, knowing that there is going to be a sequel.
CT1138
Sr Member
I think, and this is where nostalgia bias comes into play, that we only accept the flaws of the OT, and in fact time has as well, because well, most of us grew up with them. Back in 1977 through 1983, audiences didn't pick through the OT with a fine toothed comb. There was nothing to compare it to, and no reason to. But because we grew up with the OT, we've accepted its flaws, and are willing to overlook them for the enjoyment of the movies. I remember when the PT first came out, back in 1999. I was 6 years old, and would you believe it, I still liked the OT was better than what I thought was kiddiefied garbage with its yippee-yelling Anakin Skywalker and goofy-ass Jar Jar Binks. I remember we had a Star Wars day in school, and everybody showed up as either Anakin, Queen Amidala, Jar Jar, or Darth Maul... I was the only one who showed up as an OT character: Darth Vader. I later reused that costume for Halloween that October:
But my point is, we're familiar with all the OT and all the flaws therein. That makes them less obvious, and because it's something we love, we're willing to accept them more than something that's new and has flaws.
I think the point of contention originates in the definitions of "glaring" and "minor" problems. What one person considers to be a major issue, another person might not. I, personally, think the odd time frame of ESB could potentially be a breaking issue if we begun really really thinking about it. But I choose to overlook it, as many others do, because I love ESB and am willing for forgive the issue.
Of course they were! Luke, Leia, and Han were in an obvious love triangle through the first two movies, and then in the third she's Luke's sister. In ANH, Vader killed Luke's father, and then in ESB Vader IS Luke's father. In ESB, The Emperor was a woman in a mask and voiced by Clive Revill. In RotJ, he's played by Ian McDiarmid, and looks and sounds nothing like the ESB Emperor. In ANH there's numerous references to the Empire controlling a chunk of the universe, later we find out it's only one galaxy, which is somehow viewable at the end of ESB. Like I said, Lucas changes his mind every other Tuesday, and retroactively is always "the way I intended it to be." If LFL was still in Lucas' hands, I'd guarantee we'd have seen another SE by now.
Not to mention the entire first movie is, generally, about finding Luke Skywalker, the central character of the OT.
People like to refer to movies like TLJ as "suffering from middle sequel syndrome." When you think about it, most second sequels, when planned as part of a trilogy, suffer from this so called defect. It's not really a defect as much as it is simply part of being the second movie of a planned trilogy. BTTF 2, Dead Man's Chest, Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom, Empire Strikes Back, etc, are all planned to be a bridging movie that takes our characters from their start, and positions them for their finish. That's the whole point of them. One of the few movies I can think of that doesn't is Temple of Doom, and only because the Indiana Jones movies were planned more as an anthology than as one fluid story.
Also, let's all remember that the only reason ANH and indeed the OT ended the way they did was because in 1977, Lucas had no idea if the idea would be successful and wanted to be able to make ANH stand on its own in case he didn't get to make more movies. Then ROTJ ended the way it did, because Lucas only planned on using the strongest part of his "saga" to start, because he bankrolled each movie, and wanted a strong footing for LFL to stand on. Only later did he go back and begin making the rest of the the story. So he started at the beginning with the PT, and when the reaction to that was so negatively strong, it killed his interest in making SW movies, which is why he let the EU run its course, and only acted as producer for the TCW series before he eventually sold the property to Disney.
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That's pretty much what I said when people were bashing the Prequels. I generally like them, but obviously also see the flaws. People around that time (ROTS post release maybe) wouldn't accept the fact that the OT dialogue was just as bad as the Prequel dialogue. You can argue that maybe the OT actors delivered it a little better, but that was down to directing. The Prequels had great actors so we know they could have delivered some of the lines better. I think a lot of the people, now adults, forgot what it was like to watch the movies as a kid the way we did with the OT.
Joek3rr
Master Member
ANH is the worst offender. George just can't write dialogue. ESB and ROTJ are better, because of Kasdan.
One thing I noticed during my last watch of all the films. Is just how much Harrison hams it up and is just corny with his acting in ROTJ. Pretty much everything Han says on Endor is kinda cringey for me now.
Both of those movies also have a clear plot that is contained within their respective movies. Sure there is overlap but you're purposely misconstruing my point.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Thats true. But I'd say that of the Sequel films as well.
I should clarify. I meant they don't stand on their own because they rely too much on the past to prop them up.
Perhaps some love the OT because of nostalgia. As much as I loved them as a kid, I enjoy them more as an adult because I saw the mythic underpinnings that lay beneath it and as a writer and fan of Campbell's monomyth I can appreciate that.
Perhaps some love the OT because of nostalgia. As much as I loved them as a kid, I enjoy them more as an adult because I saw the mythic underpinnings that lay beneath it and as a writer and fan of Campbell's monomyth I can appreciate that.
CT1138
Sr Member
I was a kid who grew up with the PT. I recall generally being ambivalent to being downright irritated with TPM, though, I'm sure like many fans, I loved the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon/Maul duel. I still think to this day that this duel was among the strongest parts of the movie. I've come to appreciate the movie for the sake of Liam Neeson alone.
I remember AotC being my favorite as a kid, and ironically, is my least favorite now. The Obi-Wan/Jango Fett chase, Anakin losing a limb, the duels, the action, I remember loving it. It was the coolest thing ever in my 9 year old mind. I also remember the Genndy Tartakovsky tie-in animated series. It aired at about 3:30pm and I got out of school at 3. I would rush home every day to watch it on Cartoon Network. I still love the action, but being that I'm older now, and pay attention to the dialogue and story, I gotta say it's a total drag to get through.
I was an angsty 12yo preteen when RotS came out, and it was the perfect movie for me: dark, depressing, and war-torn. I remember loving it, though being depressed that this was, what I thought, the last SW movie ever. Of course Vader was on all the toy packaging, and I was kinda disappointed in-suit Vader wasn't in the movie as much as I'd thought he'd be. RotS has, in my adult years, become my favorite of the three not just for the visuals, but for the complexity of the story it tells. Easily the deepest of the prequels.
The ST is the trilogy MOST reliant on the past movies for the plots of the movies, though being direct sequels to the rest of the movies, I somewhat expect that of them. Though, as I've said, I do find the nostalgia baiting to be a bit much at times.
sztriki
Sr Member
Regarding OT vs everything else my view is very much like Redlettermedia's. ANH is a result of mixing a strange vision, a series of happy accidents, and great editing/music/sound and SFX. I do think ANH is made in post prod.
ESB is high quality filmmaking that was done expertly with an assured hand and artistic direction. Despite the light subject material it was treated as a serious movie, it's also the most grounded one. Last time I saw it I was in absolute awe just how fantastic that movie looks, how the sets are lit, how good the direction, shots and camerawork were.
ROTJ is probably the closest Lucas got to realizing his original idea of Star Wars. It feels like an episodic soap, basically two half movies crammed together, the silly aliens come back again, tone goes from left to right quite quickly, non-action shots are boring and un-creative. What it has going for it is that it could pay off the story and the emotional climax, and the music. I still like it but I can clearly see its weaknesses.
So for me SW is really held together by ESB really, everything else afterwards could not really build on the first two.
ESB is high quality filmmaking that was done expertly with an assured hand and artistic direction. Despite the light subject material it was treated as a serious movie, it's also the most grounded one. Last time I saw it I was in absolute awe just how fantastic that movie looks, how the sets are lit, how good the direction, shots and camerawork were.
ROTJ is probably the closest Lucas got to realizing his original idea of Star Wars. It feels like an episodic soap, basically two half movies crammed together, the silly aliens come back again, tone goes from left to right quite quickly, non-action shots are boring and un-creative. What it has going for it is that it could pay off the story and the emotional climax, and the music. I still like it but I can clearly see its weaknesses.
So for me SW is really held together by ESB really, everything else afterwards could not really build on the first two.
The reason new generations can enjoy it, is because they're as young as we were when we first saw it.
I'm 48, my son is 25, & his son is 2. My boy loves the PT because it was his SW. He experienced the excitement during some formative years in his life, he dressed as Obi Wan for each of the premieres, except RotS when he dressed as Luke, & that was only because he knew Luke would appear, even though is was as an infant.
I keep my grandson every day, & when we go to the Disney+ menu, he wants The Mandalorian. That's going to be his SW.
I think in some of these discussions, we're inadvertently criticizing, not the person, but rather the child that they were when their opinion was created, & other than the one member here that I have blocked, I try very hard to not do that. Just my opinion.
YouTube is filled with reaction videos of adults seeing the OT for the first time and becoming fans as a result. Nostalgia is not the primary reason these movies are cherished by millions. In fact nostalgia is what crippled the ST because of its over reliance on it. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't factor in but to suggest that it's the primary reason is total nonsense. That's what I'm arguing against.
Seeing the films in your formative years will engender your tastes for which trilogy you prefer and it's not up to me to tell another fan how to enjoy Star Wars, just like no one has the right to tell me how to enjoy it. I'm constantly adding declarative statements like this to my posts to make it clear I don't care if a person loves all or only some of Star Wars so I'm not attacking anyone personally.
The OT magic perhaps is overstated by fans, but the reason for that is because too often PT, but mostly ST fans, have a tendency to rip apart the OT as a means to justify their love for the new films. You can nitpick anything to death no matter what it is, but it seems ridiculous to me to mock the foundation on which this entire Fandom is built. If you pull out the nails that hold up your house, don't be shocked when the house collapses on you and bystanders laugh in your face.
Are some fans blinded by nostalgia to forgive any shortcomings of the OT? Sure, but not every fan thinks that way. I certainly don't because I would have abandoned it to my childhood like the rest of the shows I named before. Many people have said, including many ST fans that nostalgia is what held those films back from their full potential. Just like the PT there were interesting or fresh ideas within the ST, but their ambition was squandered by relying on either the past or on satisfying someone's ego, rather than being well written.
The OT has stood the test of time and rightfully earned it's status as a cinema classic, but nostalgia isn't the primary cause for that. It's timeless themes, relatable characters, well structured monomyth, emotionally resonant soundtrack, and spectacular visuals are just a few of the many reasons why these films will endure forever.
When enough time passes all that the remaining films in the franchise (thus far) will have to stand on is nostalgia and that can only carry a series so long before it falters. Plus I think in time the ST will be seen for the shameless cash grab that it is.
Could Star Wars be great again? If handled by competent writers who are focused on theme and characters first, absolutely. Will it ever reach the pinnacle of those originals?
No because they have become legendary and that's perfectly fine. The past can remain there and should be preserved for future generations to love.
I hope one day I can return to the story and enjoy it again, but until that day I'll just keep my OT and be happy with that.
Seeing the films in your formative years will engender your tastes for which trilogy you prefer and it's not up to me to tell another fan how to enjoy Star Wars, just like no one has the right to tell me how to enjoy it. I'm constantly adding declarative statements like this to my posts to make it clear I don't care if a person loves all or only some of Star Wars so I'm not attacking anyone personally.
The OT magic perhaps is overstated by fans, but the reason for that is because too often PT, but mostly ST fans, have a tendency to rip apart the OT as a means to justify their love for the new films. You can nitpick anything to death no matter what it is, but it seems ridiculous to me to mock the foundation on which this entire Fandom is built. If you pull out the nails that hold up your house, don't be shocked when the house collapses on you and bystanders laugh in your face.
Are some fans blinded by nostalgia to forgive any shortcomings of the OT? Sure, but not every fan thinks that way. I certainly don't because I would have abandoned it to my childhood like the rest of the shows I named before. Many people have said, including many ST fans that nostalgia is what held those films back from their full potential. Just like the PT there were interesting or fresh ideas within the ST, but their ambition was squandered by relying on either the past or on satisfying someone's ego, rather than being well written.
The OT has stood the test of time and rightfully earned it's status as a cinema classic, but nostalgia isn't the primary cause for that. It's timeless themes, relatable characters, well structured monomyth, emotionally resonant soundtrack, and spectacular visuals are just a few of the many reasons why these films will endure forever.
When enough time passes all that the remaining films in the franchise (thus far) will have to stand on is nostalgia and that can only carry a series so long before it falters. Plus I think in time the ST will be seen for the shameless cash grab that it is.
Could Star Wars be great again? If handled by competent writers who are focused on theme and characters first, absolutely. Will it ever reach the pinnacle of those originals?
No because they have become legendary and that's perfectly fine. The past can remain there and should be preserved for future generations to love.
I hope one day I can return to the story and enjoy it again, but until that day I'll just keep my OT and be happy with that.
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Bigdaddy
Master Member
That's awesome! I don't generally watch reaction videos but her energy is infectious. It reminded me of the first time my daughter watched the OT.
On the subject of nostalgia, she's about to turn 18 and grew up with the prequels. Her first SW costume was Ahsoka followed by Padme, our first fanfilm was about Padme during the clone wars and she had every PT toy imaginable. The assumption would be that she has nostalgia for those films but she detests them now. By age 12 or 13 she decided they were hot garbage and can only be tolerated in Robot Chicken form. She sold every PT toy she had on eBay but retained her MF and AT-AT.
At least 90% (or more) of 80s movies I have shown her are trash, nostalgia keeps them interesting for ME but she's my barometer to stay intellectually honest about the stuff I thought was so great.
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