Give me back Sebastian Shaw at end of ROTJ

I think that it is a little bit funny that Hayden Christensen looks like he is feeling embarrassed about being there in the scene on the DVD next to Yoda and Alec Guinness.

Sebastian Shaw as Anakin was looking at Obi-Wan, and then forwards at the "son" with played love in his eyes and a smile on his face. That was all he had to do. That was what was right in that scene. That is what Yoda and Alec Guiness did. They looked happy. content and proud of the man that they saw in front of them.

Hayden was looking at Obi-Wan, smiling, looking down at the ground, away in the distance at something else, but then he steadied himself and finally started looking in front of him, at this thing and that, and then he steadied himself looking forwards, except not in the same exact direction as Yoda and Obi-Wan and now with a stern expression on his face that just emitted that he really wanted to be somewhere else and that he emotionally just wanted to be quite detached from the whole thing.
 
Agreed 100% :thumbsup

RANT.

Ugh. I've been watching the Star Wars movies showing on TV--and man does replacing Sebastian Shaw with Hayden really tick me off. I know it's supposed to tie the crappy prequels in with the original trilogy--but it doesn't even make sense.

THIS is the Anakin that's supposed to be 'light'? At this time in his development, he'd already slaughtered all the Tuskins--and potentially all the younglings. The only Anakin it would maybe make sense to show as 'light' or 'redeemed' would be Tatooine Kid Anakin--or super early Padawan Anakin. But you can't show him as Hayden/Anakin and have it make any more sense than Shaw. Really, it's SHAW/Vader who is redeemed--and only at the end of life. Showing Hayden is just a lame link to the prequels.

The more I think about the Prequels, the more I think they spectacularly suck in a giant suck-fest of suckage. And I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan. But all the pointless characters with build-up that went no where. Aurra Sing, Zam, the Diner scene, the Chancellor, underused Dooku and overused Windu. What was the point? the various subplots that are too complicated for a child to follow & too boring--also, the story lines. Bad dialog, wretched acting. Hello, Natalie?

The Anakin character failed to deliver. He was bad nearly immediately. There wasn't a slow degeneration--no opportunity to see him struggle against the dark side, or have a shattering moment of character reversal. Hayden or the writers or both just played him like a self-indulgent jerk from the beginning. He never seemed to be a 'good' kid who got corrupted. He seemed like a jerk who stayed a jerk and then ended up acting like a jerk and blah blah blah...yawn. Oh wait. He's worried Padme might die. And then he kills her.

Never believed Padme would fall for someone she first met when he was a chubbly little kid. Yuck. I'm thinking about kids I babysat for--and I wouldn't have wanted to sleep with any of them a few years later. She's a senator and Queen and has spent her whole life defending the rights of others, working with endangered populations--but her boyfriend slaughters a troop of Tuskins and suddenly she's fine with revenge/murder? Padme must be a lot more messed up than I thought--or was portrayed in the movies. It doesn't track with the character that she'd forgive him that atrocity. If we're supposed to believe it, then the movie's already failed to show plausible strong love between Padme and Anakin--or why Anakin's worth sticking with. Padme disintegrates from an awesome Leader and awesome Let Me Climb Up this Arena Pillar and Save Myself to weepy and useless. By episode III she's really only a womb.

Maybe if Anakin had been shown increasingly violent against Padme--abusing her/mistrusting her more as he descended into madness--slapping her, apologizing etc, then I'd have bought the sudden choking. I remember watching that scene and thinking "huh?" which totally took me out of the movie. There wasn't any emotional build-up, just scene after unfolding scene with no emotional grit.

You know a character that I totally believed as conflicted and desperate to balance himself--the guy who played the Goblin's son in the Spiderman flicks. Whoever that guy is nailed a tortured, conflicted persona. I totally believed his love/hate of Peter Parker, reluctant twisting into a new and terrible person. If the Anakin character had been played with that complexity, I would have cared about his fall. I would have at least believed the story I was being told.

Obi was a bitchy, snarky ass up to and throughout Anakin's training. He was incredibly patronizing. I'd have hated him as a master--and it didn't make sense for him to have such a passive-aggressive attitude toward Anakin. Jeez. I wanted to fight Obi by the end of the movie, just to make him stop being such a pissy girl.

The Jedi don't seem like guardians of peace, they seem ineffective and foolish. All that meditation and training for what? What's the point of the Jedi Council except to be dithering time-wasters and nay-sayers. How crappy was the training anyway if one pissed Jedi and a bunch of clones can kill them all? ALL those Jedi and no one suspects Anakin's turning dark? No one can penetrate the secrets he's keeping? Murder, revenge, sex, duplicity? Wait, let me guess--the 'dark side' masks it all. Remember the Arena? Got their butts kicked there too. Are these the B-Team jedi? The Jedi don't seem particularly special.

It even bothers me that Ben and Owen Lars sport robes on Tatooine that look like the outfits the Jedi are all wearing in the Prequels. I like the desert robes for the desert. That everyone wears them seemed like a heavy-handed nod toward samuri and fighting monks. I get it already.

Lava surfing. Really. This is how the big final fight goes down? Overly colorized and elongated computer images, unfathomable fight location--and a final fight that looks like they were testing out a Star Wars video game? What a disappointment. Lava surfing and stupid stunts don't make an impressive final lightsabre duel.

Midichlorians make me SO freaking irate I can't even go there.

MAN. I'm really irritated.

I wanted to love these movies. All the green screening must have really thrown the actors off--cause the overall emotional effect is tremendously flat. All the costumes and digital locations in the world can't make up for the fact that the story is overly padded in silly ways and lacking in grit and depth when it needs it. I'm actually becoming a fan of the Phantom Edit/fan edits. They restore the coolness I expect via good editing. Characters become more soulful, story lines tighten up. Ugh. It kills me that a franchise I love so much, whose existence literally saved my life when I was a kid, ended via the prequels on such a disappointing note.

I want Shaw back. And Han shoots first. And if those freaking Midichlorians had never been mentioned I think I'd be a lot more chill about the Prequels.
 
I usually dont get wrapped up in this stuff but I have to agree. The line that kills me is when Yoda blabs something about "It joys my heart to see you alive" Is this a Lifetime movie? I'd say quit tinkering with the OT and start working on these prequels...:lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by jediscout
RANT.

Ugh. I've been watching the Star Wars movies showing on TV--and man does replacing Sebastian Shaw with Hayden really tick me off. I know it's supposed to tie the crappy prequels in with the original trilogy--but it doesn't even make sense.

THIS is the Anakin that's supposed to be 'light'? At this time in his development, he'd already slaughtered all the Tuskins--and potentially all the younglings. The only Anakin it would maybe make sense to show as 'light' or 'redeemed' would be Tatooine Kid Anakin--or super early Padawan Anakin. But you can't show him as Hayden/Anakin and have it make any more sense than Shaw. Really, it's SHAW/Vader who is redeemed--and only at the end of life. Showing Hayden is just a lame link to the prequels.

The more I think about the Prequels, the more I think they spectacularly suck in a giant suck-fest of suckage. And I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan. But all the pointless characters with build-up that went no where. Aurra Sing, Zam, the Diner scene, the Chancellor, underused Dooku and overused Windu. What was the point? the various subplots that are too complicated for a child to follow & too boring--also, the story lines. Bad dialog, wretched acting. Hello, Natalie?

The Anakin character failed to deliver. He was bad nearly immediately. There wasn't a slow degeneration--no opportunity to see him struggle against the dark side, or have a shattering moment of character reversal. Hayden or the writers or both just played him like a self-indulgent jerk from the beginning. He never seemed to be a 'good' kid who got corrupted. He seemed like a jerk who stayed a jerk and then ended up acting like a jerk and blah blah blah...yawn. Oh wait. He's worried Padme might die. And then he kills her.

Never believed Padme would fall for someone she first met when he was a chubbly little kid. Yuck. I'm thinking about kids I babysat for--and I wouldn't have wanted to sleep with any of them a few years later. She's a senator and Queen and has spent her whole life defending the rights of others, working with endangered populations--but her boyfriend slaughters a troop of Tuskins and suddenly she's fine with revenge/murder? Padme must be a lot more messed up than I thought--or was portrayed in the movies. It doesn't track with the character that she'd forgive him that atrocity. If we're supposed to believe it, then the movie's already failed to show plausible strong love between Padme and Anakin--or why Anakin's worth sticking with. Padme disintegrates from an awesome Leader and awesome Let Me Climb Up this Arena Pillar and Save Myself to weepy and useless. By episode III she's really only a womb.

Maybe if Anakin had been shown increasingly violent against Padme--abusing her/mistrusting her more as he descended into madness--slapping her, apologizing etc, then I'd have bought the sudden choking. I remember watching that scene and thinking "huh?" which totally took me out of the movie. There wasn't any emotional build-up, just scene after unfolding scene with no emotional grit.

You know a character that I totally believed as conflicted and desperate to balance himself--the guy who played the Goblin's son in the Spiderman flicks. Whoever that guy is nailed a tortured, conflicted persona. I totally believed his love/hate of Peter Parker, reluctant twisting into a new and terrible person. If the Anakin character had been played with that complexity, I would have cared about his fall. I would have at least believed the story I was being told.

Obi was a bitchy, snarky ass up to and throughout Anakin's training. He was incredibly patronizing. I'd have hated him as a master--and it didn't make sense for him to have such a passive-aggressive attitude toward Anakin. Jeez. I wanted to fight Obi by the end of the movie, just to make him stop being such a pissy girl.

The Jedi don't seem like guardians of peace, they seem ineffective and foolish. All that meditation and training for what? What's the point of the Jedi Council except to be dithering time-wasters and nay-sayers. How crappy was the training anyway if one pissed Jedi and a bunch of clones can kill them all? ALL those Jedi and no one suspects Anakin's turning dark? No one can penetrate the secrets he's keeping? Murder, revenge, sex, duplicity? Wait, let me guess--the 'dark side' masks it all. Remember the Arena? Got their butts kicked there too. Are these the B-Team jedi? The Jedi don't seem particularly special.

It even bothers me that Ben and Owen Lars sport robes on Tatooine that look like the outfits the Jedi are all wearing in the Prequels. I like the desert robes for the desert. That everyone wears them seemed like a heavy-handed nod toward samuri and fighting monks. I get it already.

Lava surfing. Really. This is how the big final fight goes down? Overly colorized and elongated computer images, unfathomable fight location--and a final fight that looks like they were testing out a Star Wars video game? What a disappointment. Lava surfing and stupid stunts don't make an impressive final lightsabre duel.

Midichlorians make me SO freaking irate I can't even go there.

MAN. I'm really irritated.

I wanted to love these movies. All the green screening must have really thrown the actors off--cause the overall emotional effect is tremendously flat. All the costumes and digital locations in the world can't make up for the fact that the story is overly padded in silly ways and lacking in grit and depth when it needs it. I'm actually becoming a fan of the Phantom Edit/fan edits. They restore the coolness I expect via good editing. Characters become more soulful, story lines tighten up. Ugh. It kills me that a franchise I love so much, whose existence literally saved my life when I was a kid, ended via the prequels on such a disappointing note.

I want Shaw back. And Han shoots first. And if those freaking Midichlorians had never been mentioned I think I'd be a lot more chill about the Prequels.
 
Was the pacifist Amidala who argued against the Clone Army not bothered at all by the Tuskin mass murder? Is she an idiot? A hypocrite? Are they really just wild animals so it's no biggy?

The Jedi travel to new planets as a matter of routine, but they can't rescue Anakin's mom? Really? REALLY?! I know this has been mentioned ad nauseum, but as long as we're all venting...
 
Sebastian Shaw looked like a kindly old grandpa.

It should have been this guy under the mask. He's scary looking.

cheney_grr.jpg


http://www.newsgroper.com/files/post_images/cheney_grr.jpg

EDIT:

vader_fight_bw_cheney.jpg


http://43ll.com/images/vader_fight_bw_cheney.jpg
 
The "bonus" disc of the Return of the Jedi DVD will fix your concerns...It might not look as good as the Special Edition. But vote with your wallet and refuse to purchase any of the prequels or sets that include the prequels. That's what I'm doing.
 
But vote with your wallet and refuse to purchase any of the prequels or sets that include the prequels. That's what I'm doing.

Likewise. Not only is Lucas a cheapskate, but he's pretty much a lying snob. BluRay editions get announced, folks ask if the original unaltered versions will be present, he says no. Why? Because that would cost too much money.

........:lol

YES! The multi-billionare who is still making millions by the month doesn't want to restore three classic films because it would cost too much money. It's like he's worried that restoring the originals may be a company bankrupting risk that he does not want to take.

The funny part? He has to restore the originals because how else will he be able to incorporate the new effects? You think he had ILM digitally erase the old CGI Jabba frame-by-frame just so he could put in the updated one? No. He went to the source material, restored it and put the new CGI Jabba over the human one.
 
The need for this thread is why? Prequel complaint soapbox thread on the RPF number 43363677?

They are just movies! GET OVER IT!

I am so sick of the whining. You people whine worse than Anakin. Just for once I'd like you to take the microscope you put the prequels under and stick the OT under it, or other movies for that matter.

In a recent thread about BTTF a rather large plothole was found and the reaction was more or less "oh its just a movie." Really? So every other movie out there gets slack cut, but the prequels have to be up to this unbelievably impossible standard of what you envisioned in your mind?

Either move on or shut up and enjoy them for what they are.

Oh the irony.
 
Solo, I see you continually bring out this argument that Lucas has claimed to always have every detail of the Star Wars saga written in stone some thirty years ago. Can you support this with referenced quotes? It would be unfair to perpetuate this "myth" you speak of.

Oh come on. I can't whip out my "George Lucas Quote Book" and point to page 4, line 6 where he says XYZ, but for the past 30 years the guy's been essentially talking about what he "meant" to do with the series, how it was planned out, etc. I don't have quotes ready to support the fact that J.K. Rowling says she planned the whole thing with Harry Potter either, but she's said it. Go look it up yourself. In general, if he hasn't come right out and said the exact phrase "I always intended..." followed by something that visibly contradicts what appears in the films themselves, then he's at the VERY least allowed the notion that he planned the whole thing to develop without ever really bothering to say "What are you talking about? I make it up as I go." Actually, I'd challenge anyone to find a quote of him saying something to that effect and pointing out that he's not this grand orchestrator of the overarching saga (which, by the way, apparently changed from being a story about Luke to the story of the Skywalker family to Anakin's story at any given moment).

It would also be a foolish thing to presume that art can only ever be valid if it's conceived in it's entirety, in one single sitting with no option ever for further modification or refinement.

I'm hardly arguing that point. I have no problems with art being made up on the fly, but if you're gonna do that, you need to do two things: (1) Keep a sharp eye on continuity to avoid gaffes, and (2) manage your audience's expectations. I think you can probably manage #2 by keeping a close eye on #1 and by not telegraphing something that you either fail to pay off, or pay off in a way that has people saying "WHAT?!?! Are you f-ing KIDDING ME?!!"

For damn sure I'd better not tell everyone that I have everything planned out to the finest detail. I'll give you an example from someone who hasn't really done "epic fantasy" storytelling: Quentin Tarantino. Tarantino has said in director's commentary or in extras or interviews relating to Kill Bill that he knows the fate of all his characters. Now, he doesn't say how in-depth he goes with that, but for example, he knows that the daughter that The Bride leaves alive after killing her mom DOES eventually seek revenge. He's said as much. If later on he did "Kill Bill...Again" and featured the daughter but never had her seek revenge, fans would be entirely justified in saying "WTF? So much for knowing everything that happens to everyone. Looks like he changed his mind or just made it up as he went along."

Now, as I said, I have zero problem with someone flying by the seat of their pants, but I do think that approach lends itself far more to mismanaged expectations, thematic shifts, and continuity problems. All of which is BAD WRITING. But I'll get to that in a minute.

I'm not surprised that most people complain about midi-chlorians, generally it's the juvenile whining of those who believe their childish bubble has been burst and have knee jerk histrionics to something that actually requires a more considered view.

I am surprised though that someone who professes such an interest in creative writing, can miss the obvious of why there is a science over mysticism angle on the Force in the PT. If you think the approach taken with midi-chlorians/the Force is in any way a goof in consistency with the OT and bad storytelling in general then I have to question to what level of creative writing you actually aspire to.

It doesn't help matters when you post detailed ideas on what you think is a much better story and admit to starting to write an alternate version (really?!) which frankly at best is the same old fanfic and at worst is a telling sign that you are so immersed in a hazy romantic memory that you've lost better judgment and are hostage to it.

Seriously, if you are to take anything from Star Wars it should be to plough your own field.

Lucas has made some questionable choices no doubt, but the midi-chlorians shouldn't be on any level headed persons list. Qui Gon not appearing to Yoda in Sith is the number one narrative failure that bridges the trilogies, imo.

But then again, Lucas got away with a big narrative anomaly in Star Wars and no one ever sees it, so some he wins and some he doesn't.

Ok, lots to respond to here, so I'll take it bit by bit.

1.) I **** on the counter argument of "Oh yeah, well let's see YOU do better!" I don't have to know how to manufacture cars to recognize when my car is driving poorly. I don't have to be a master chef to know when the food tastes like ****. Or even when it doesn't taste like a dish is supposed to taste. I don't have to be a sommelier or a vintner to tell you that XYZ Pinot Noir tastes nothing like a Pinot Noir, and if that's by design, then I don't like it. Why? Simple. Because I've experienced good writing, cars that handle well, and food and wine that taste good enough to know the difference. Even if I can't produce it myself, I can still spot quality (or lack thereof) when I see it. Past that, it's a matter of taste. Maybe you like your Pinots to be high alcohol and with no back end to 'em. Fine and dandy. I like it differently, and regardless, when it has a nose reminiscent of cedar and apples, and fruit flavors of bananas, I'm gonna wonder why the hell you're selling it as a Pinot, because it tastes NOTHING like one should.

2.) Before you start giving me crap for writing bad fan fic, recognize that I gave it up specifically because any time I tried writing it, it came across to me AS bad fanfic. I have no desire to write that. (p.s. skip to the end of the post you "paraphrased" where you'll see I say just this) Nor do I have any desire to be constrained by the requirements of an existing universe if I'm ever going to bother writing a story. I've got my own ideas about how the prequels could've been done better, but I'm not gonna bother with it because I don't profess to be a writer. Never have. I DO profess, however, to being a discriminating consumer of fiction, quite aware of my own tastes, and certainly able to spot f-ups in this or that approach to a tale. Maybe some day I'll write some epic work of science fiction myself. Most likely I won't. None of that, however, will change the fact that Lucas dropped the ball PLENTY in his storytelling, and trying to play "jedi mind trick" by claiming stuff that doesn't appear on the screen as the justification for it is just fanboy blather. I mean, I have no real problem with folks taking their love of Star Wars to the point where they'll concoct elaborate explanations for why Han Solo's obvious discussion of measures of speed confuses the concept of the parsec, but I do have a problem when they don't do so with a wink and a grin and an acceptance that hey, Lucas screwed it up, but we'll continue to have fun anyway.

3.) On the midichlorian point specifically, I suppose you'd argue that OBVIOUSLY it's an emphasis on science to highlight how out of touch the Jedi are....except in my opinion, he doesn't really pay that off particularly well. He drops little hints here and there, I suppose, but he never really focuses on it much. Moreover -- and in my opinion a far more problematic aspect of this plot device -- he does nothing to set it up. It comes completely out of left field. You want to know why audiences react to it with something between "Huh?" and "WTF?!?!?! YOU'VE DESTROYED MY CHILDHOOD"? It's because the midichlorian thing had no connection to anything when it was introduced. It was just stated as if it were fact, conveniently ignoring the fact that Yoda and Obi-Wan had both spent several scenes in the OT talking about how it's this mystic energy field in borderline spiritual terms. Then all of a sudden it's cells in your blood? Where'd THAT come from? Lucas also gives the audience no sense of where (if anywhere) he's going with that. Is he going to show us how reliance on science and hyper-rationalism dooms the Jedi? Well...not really. Is he going to show us that the explanation was, in fact, wrong and a total misunderstanding? Nope. He just throws it out there, and then ignores it later.

Again, that's just bad writing. Period. If I tell my audience "These are the rules of the universe," sure, I can break those rules later, but I've got to explain it. I can't just casually toss out the notion that everything I told them before was a lie, was wrong, or now requires THEM to come up with some convoluted explanation as to why, no, no, I didn't really just suddenly change the rules on them and it all fits together perfectly. Lucas, however, just throws it out there, and then proceeds as if nothing happened. No lead-in, no payoff, just there and gone. Bad writing. Certainly not his only example -- and yes, the OT has plenty of other similar moments -- but there's so much else wrong with the PT that it ends up drawing all the flaws to the forefront in this laundry list of problems. Arguably it also makes the flaws in the OT more apparent, too.

None of this is to say that, whatever Lucas' intent may have been, the notions of "Oh the Jedi fail because of an overreliance on science/rationalism/denial of emotion/etc." couldn't be interesting. It could, it just isn't (to me, anyway) in the PT as portrayed. Moreover, the radical shift in explanations, as I mention, just isn't really dealt with. There's never any lead-in line where Qui-Gon says he'll test for midichlorians, and Obi-Wan says "But Master, you know this theory is the source of much debate in the Jedi Order..." There's never any payoff for it where Yoda rejects the notion. We just have, essentially, two completely different sets of explanations for how the Force works, and the fans are given the task of squaring them with each other.
 
Actually, I'd challenge anyone to find a quote of him saying something to that effect and pointing out that he's not this grand orchestrator of the overarching saga

Here you go:

Don't tell anyone … but when 'Star Wars' first came out, I didn't know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you've planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories — let's call them homages — and you've got a series.

George Lucas sends letter to ‘Lost’

The levity with which he approaches the subject says a lot. He's not on some campaign to make himself look a certain way, else he'd never let something slip like this. I imagine if I had been asked literally thousands of times where something I made "came from", my story would probably change over a thirty-plus-year span as well.
 
Likewise. Not only is Lucas a cheapskate, but he's pretty much a lying snob. BluRay editions get announced, folks ask if the original unaltered versions will be present, he says no. Why? Because that would cost too much money.

........:lol

YES! The multi-billionare who is still making millions by the month doesn't want to restore three classic films because it would cost too much money. It's like he's worried that restoring the originals may be a company bankrupting risk that he does not want to take.

The funny part? He has to restore the originals because how else will he be able to incorporate the new effects? You think he had ILM digitally erase the old CGI Jabba frame-by-frame just so he could put in the updated one? No. He went to the source material, restored it and put the new CGI Jabba over the human one.

Yeah, I find the whole "cost too much to restore the originals" kind of crazy. However, I just dug out my older issue of ASC magazine to see what he says in the interview around the time the special editions first came out in theaters. I too have a feeling they did restore the film before working on the special editions. Also, I recall in a Cinefex or other magazine one of the people at Lowry Digital mentioning that Lucasfilm did a pretty good cleanup job before they received the film.
 
Here you go:



George Lucas sends letter to ‘Lost’

The levity with which he approaches the subject says a lot. He's not on some campaign to make himself look a certain way, else he'd never let something slip like this. I imagine if I had been asked literally thousands of times where something I made "came from", my story would probably change over a thirty-plus-year span as well.

Maybe so, but I've definitely seen quotes over the years from him where he said he always intended xyz or always planned abc, when asked about something that changed or didn't make sense. It's one thong to leave plot points open and ambiguous in films. The end of inception, for example. It's another thing to apparently screw up or contradict yourself and cite to your own thoughts or unfilled notes or cut scenes or post hoc explanations to resolve the discrepancy.
 
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