Accident on the set of Rust.
- Thread starter joberg
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Yup... This was a case of manslaughter, pure & simple.
To use other analogies posted here, if I go to a party, get drunk, go to a bar, continue to get served & then drive home & kill someone in an accident, even if they were in my car WITH me, I will be charged with vehicular manslaughter. The folks at the party, the bar owner or bartender could be charged with something contributory, but I alone by operating the car would be guilty of manslaughter because it was my direct action that caused the death(s).
To more relate that to this case, if I am Stone Cold Sober, with a 40 year old exemplary driving record, & through my negligence (eating, texting, etc) I cause an accident that results in a death, I am still able to be charged with vehicular manslaughter, because it was, as it relates here, my DIRECT ACTION that caused the death.
It will ultimately be up to the local DA to see what the investigations find to determine if charges will be filed against Baldwin.
robstyle
Master Member
A lot of people here are speaking out of opionion and speculation. The facts have yet to be released. The type of weapon involved, how the weapon was discharged.... Facts.
For those interested. This is a 1/2 and full blank shotgun shells. The 1/4 wasn't even registering on my camera in the available lighting. That's how little power is in 1/4 blank. You'll see there is a bit of paper inside used to hold the powder in place. It's usually incinerated by the powder itself upon detonation. You'll also notice on the box itself is a disclaimer stating not safe within 20 feet. That's an "industry standard" for blanks within the industry all around.
For those interested. This is a 1/2 and full blank shotgun shells. The 1/4 wasn't even registering on my camera in the available lighting. That's how little power is in 1/4 blank. You'll see there is a bit of paper inside used to hold the powder in place. It's usually incinerated by the powder itself upon detonation. You'll also notice on the box itself is a disclaimer stating not safe within 20 feet. That's an "industry standard" for blanks within the industry all around.
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Axlotl
Master Member
I'm being rational. You're the one who sounds insane.
I grew up shooting. I know all the rules. One of them is never assume somebody else knows all the rules, too.
NEVER hand someone a loaded weapon assuming they know gun safety.
You're assuming everyone else knows as much about it as you do. You sound like an accident waiting to happen.
JPH
Sr Member
No, as I have said before, you need to know the basics before you even pick up a firearm. And claiming that me calling for a higher level of safety is an "accident waiting to happen" really drives home your starstruck cognitive dissonance.
Axlotl
Master Member
And... reported for trolling.No, as I have said before, you need to know the basics before you even pick up a firearm. And claiming that me calling for a higher level of safety is an "accident waiting to happen" really drives home your starstruck cognitive dissonance.
Goodnight, troll.
JPH
Sr Member
Yes, because calling for *more* safety makes things *less* safe in your world.
And excusing reckless behavior is acceptable to you.
Best you bail lest youactually have to think about it
Everybody here is afforded the privilege of playing armchair quarterback. I wouldn't fault anyone for having an opinion because all of us are dealing with the same pool of information.
Let's face it. A lot of us, me included, are jumping on Baldwin because he comes across as a smug, self-righteous prima donna. (Some people would call it charisma, but not me) At the same time he historically gets away with completely infantile and narcissistic behavior, particularly against women, with no adverse effect on his career. Yes, I know that being a celebrity, means having your every public misstep publicized, but who remembers when he was kicked off that American Airlines flight because he refused to put away his iPad because he was playing "Words with Friends" then, in a tantrum, retreated to the lavatory slamming the door?
But my criticism of Baldwin isn't about wishing ill will towards a celebrity I don't like. Make no mistake, this event is tragic for all parties involved, including for Baldwin. But this tragedy is also the result of a series of mishaps that occurred in an environment where universal standards of safety evidently weren't paramount. I daresay that there are thousands of television and movie productions every year conducted with a greater degree of professionalism than this production apparently was.
It is little surprise to me that someone with a reputation for such reckless narcissism might be associated with a tragedy such as this. It is hard for me to think this could have just as easily happened to someone like Will Smith or Keanu Reeves. I suspect that someone else in his shoes with his authority would have stopped production, even at great expense, if safety was at all in question.
To be clear I'm also not saying he was the only one responsible, but it seems that celebrities of his caliber are afforded a much greater deal of sympathy and suspension of culpability than the general public would be. In part I'm responding to how protective the mainstream media seem to be - e.g. so many news reports make the same talking points about how cooperative he is being with the police or about how "broken" he is about it.
I would expect a pathologic elitist to prioritize career damage control over everything else. For instance, it seems indelicate that he felt almost immediately compelled to Tweet about how "heartbroken" he was. And then there is how every news channel was served the same photos depicting Baldwin looking purposeful or remorseful. Am I the only one who thinks they look a bit staged?
I can (and this is also my personal bias) also conceive of a scenario where the actor inevitably diverts remorse and responsibility into activism about gun violence, maybe even creating a foundation in the name of the killed cinematographer. A move like that would only be shameless obfuscation because this tragedy has nothing to do with gun control, but about disregard of standards of safety.
All in all, I agree that Baldwin and his career are less important than the fact that a person was tragically killed. I just find it hard to swallow that Baldwin lacks any significant degree of culpability. That is my opinion.
Let's face it. A lot of us, me included, are jumping on Baldwin because he comes across as a smug, self-righteous prima donna. (Some people would call it charisma, but not me) At the same time he historically gets away with completely infantile and narcissistic behavior, particularly against women, with no adverse effect on his career. Yes, I know that being a celebrity, means having your every public misstep publicized, but who remembers when he was kicked off that American Airlines flight because he refused to put away his iPad because he was playing "Words with Friends" then, in a tantrum, retreated to the lavatory slamming the door?
But my criticism of Baldwin isn't about wishing ill will towards a celebrity I don't like. Make no mistake, this event is tragic for all parties involved, including for Baldwin. But this tragedy is also the result of a series of mishaps that occurred in an environment where universal standards of safety evidently weren't paramount. I daresay that there are thousands of television and movie productions every year conducted with a greater degree of professionalism than this production apparently was.
It is little surprise to me that someone with a reputation for such reckless narcissism might be associated with a tragedy such as this. It is hard for me to think this could have just as easily happened to someone like Will Smith or Keanu Reeves. I suspect that someone else in his shoes with his authority would have stopped production, even at great expense, if safety was at all in question.
To be clear I'm also not saying he was the only one responsible, but it seems that celebrities of his caliber are afforded a much greater deal of sympathy and suspension of culpability than the general public would be. In part I'm responding to how protective the mainstream media seem to be - e.g. so many news reports make the same talking points about how cooperative he is being with the police or about how "broken" he is about it.
I would expect a pathologic elitist to prioritize career damage control over everything else. For instance, it seems indelicate that he felt almost immediately compelled to Tweet about how "heartbroken" he was. And then there is how every news channel was served the same photos depicting Baldwin looking purposeful or remorseful. Am I the only one who thinks they look a bit staged?
I can (and this is also my personal bias) also conceive of a scenario where the actor inevitably diverts remorse and responsibility into activism about gun violence, maybe even creating a foundation in the name of the killed cinematographer. A move like that would only be shameless obfuscation because this tragedy has nothing to do with gun control, but about disregard of standards of safety.
All in all, I agree that Baldwin and his career are less important than the fact that a person was tragically killed. I just find it hard to swallow that Baldwin lacks any significant degree of culpability. That is my opinion.
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Axlotl
Master Member
I just saw a report that said the police found live ammo stored with the blank rounds and that crew were reportedly target shooting with it in off hours.
JPH
Sr Member
I actually dont hate or like him. But it is astounding to see to what level people will defend what he did.
I dont know the people he injured and killed, but he frgging KILLED someone, and it all sounds more and more COMPLETELY Avoidable.
Lights out.
Gone...
How does that not twist your gut?!?!
If ANYONE here got killed the same way, I'd feel the same.
robstyle
Master Member
Safety on a film set is already set to a very high standard. Time is money, days are not met or things slow a days progress, time is money, those days not met and slow times add up, time is money... The entertainment industry is a circus. It's not easy to explain the basics to many not involved as they won't comprehend the moment to moment changes to what's unfolding before them. Over time, which is experience, you learn to predict an outcome, where camera or lighting will be or more basics as in where can one "set up and live" for the day while on location. All this and "live round' is still misunderstood time and again even after multiple explanation.
Let's add this here for you all to fact check. How many people in the last 100 years of film and television have been accidentally killed by a prop firearm while filming? The facts. Just the facts. Actual facts. The number may shock you.
Let's add this here for you all to fact check. How many people in the last 100 years of film and television have been accidentally killed by a prop firearm while filming? The facts. Just the facts. Actual facts. The number may shock you.
robstyle
Master Member
Keep in mind again western prop firearms are near always live fire weapons. Rentals from independent contractors are not, in most instances, those from prop rental houses. In other words independent could mean an individual. What that individual does off set VS on set with said weapon is something else. If live ammo was kept with prop use blanks then that's a major issue of careless negligence. In this case it would be criminal in CA. I don't know about NM.
JPH
Sr Member
I remember Orson Wells on, I think Merv Grifffin, years ago shredding the director of Heaven's Gate. He talked about tripping horses with piano wires, people being injured, like everyone and everything was expendable in order to archive his vision.
The industry has come a long way, but stuff like this is two steps back.
The industry has come a long way, but stuff like this is two steps back.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
I don't know if the reports are true, but from what I've read, Baldwin was handed the weapon and told it was a "cold gun" by the 1st AD and/or the young armorer - IF, and it's a big IF, but IF that's true, there's more involved than just putting all the blame on Baldwin. Handing an actor a hot weapon and telling them it's cold is a huge breach and violation.
TazMan2000
Master Member
JPH,
Nobody was defending what he did. How could you say that? All we are saying is that there should be a deep investigation to reveal all of what went wrong. If there was a live round in the chamber, it was put in there by someone. Blaming the last person who handled the weapon gets that person jailed, but doesn't solve how this all went wrong. This has to be investigated, new rules for safety formed and implemented. Nobody should have to get killed on a movie set. Everyone deserves to go home to their family.
TazMan2000
Nobody was defending what he did. How could you say that? All we are saying is that there should be a deep investigation to reveal all of what went wrong. If there was a live round in the chamber, it was put in there by someone. Blaming the last person who handled the weapon gets that person jailed, but doesn't solve how this all went wrong. This has to be investigated, new rules for safety formed and implemented. Nobody should have to get killed on a movie set. Everyone deserves to go home to their family.
TazMan2000
JPH
Sr Member
Take a gun class.
Who is defending AB? What are you wanting from the rest of us that you aren't getting?
No, we aren't going to declare AB a murderer based on a few news stories about him being handed a gun and told it wasn't loaded. Get over it. Due process is a thing. And the best info we have points to some form of manslaughter at worst, not murder.
Maybe you think AB's actions should be considered murder. Okay, congratulations, you have an opinion. But that isn't the law. Nor is it the normal usage of the words. Get over it.
This. Considering all the unsafe stuff that movies intentionally stage, I think the firearm accident rate is quite low overall.
It is a great idea that people learn gun safety and take a class, but that sadly doesn't mean that all accidents magically disappear.
I remember this old video.
I remember this old video.
JPH
Sr Member
Everyone who lacks the basic knowledge that once you touch that weapon, it is your responsibility The rounds are your responsibility as well.
You check for yourself.
The fact that people are playing dumb over the concept that actors might actually have to be *TRAINED* on how to use a firearm * BEFORE* they even touch it is willfully denying reality. It doesnt male you credible.
"He's an actor!" SO?!?!? What a broken, pathetic excuse
Everyone who has actually received firearms training reads the post from those who have not, and shakes their head with sadness. You all are completely backwards on the REALITY of where the responsibility rest.
So, you can lie to yourself. You can post over and over what you'd *hope* to be the truth, but getting the last word doesnt make you right, it just makes you persistent.
Why are WE doing this? So that if one of you ever DOES decide to get training, or are training with others, you dont do something that could forever change your lives.
Meanwhile, y'all keep saying, "he want trained," "whyd they give him live rounds?"
Think about that if/when you ever get near a forearm. The buck stops with the person who pulled the trigger, not with the person who put it in your hands.
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